Bolt on valve covers
Bolt on valve covers
At Infinieon this weekend, we had another incident of a valve cover being knocked off resulting in the retirement of several cars. I know Michael V. would support it as well. Why don't we make it mandatory that everyone have bolt on valve covers? It would be cheaper than damage repair and HANS devices.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
Re: Bolt on valve covers
Brian,
I, for one, would certainly be in favor of that. Why don't you propose it through the CRB website and let's see what happens ?
Steve, FV80
I, for one, would certainly be in favor of that. Why don't you propose it through the CRB website and let's see what happens ?
Steve, FV80
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
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Re: Bolt on valve covers
Darn it I just spent $10 two months ago on some used stock covers!
Sounds good to me though. There was a similar proposal for solo last winter, wasn't there? Why didn't that go through?
Sounds good to me though. There was a similar proposal for solo last winter, wasn't there? Why didn't that go through?
Re: Bolt on valve covers
OK, I'll write the letter tomorrow. Tiago, amigo you can have bosses welded into to your clip on covers and save some weight.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
Re: Bolt on valve covers
Then what do you do if you get hit and the cover comes off and cracks a head instead of just poping off?
Mark Filip
NER #27
Womer EV-3
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Womer EV-3
Re: Bolt on valve covers
Something quite less than what you do if the cover gets knocked off and you run out of oil before you realize it (which OFTEN happens when it gets knocked off).fvracer27 wrote:Then what do you do if you get hit and the cover comes off and cracks a head instead of just poping off?
Steve, FV80
Last edited by FV80 on September 8th, 2011, 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
Re: Bolt on valve covers
Mark did ask the important question about what happens when the bolt on one gets knocked off and takes out the valve train and leaves a broken off stud in the head or worse. Problem is as long as we use these engines it will always be an issue that can happen with the right conditions. Even with my forward facing trailing arms I have had mine knocked off but I noticed it on the track and went into the pits which was right there and didn't lose the engine.
Ed
Ed
Re: Bolt on valve covers
For under $30 it is really a no brainer. I have seen them hit and break. I have not seen a head damaged. The cover typically cracks and that is about it. If you get hit hard enough to damage the head, it will happen with either type cover. It certainly won't leak the oil that a missing stock one will when it gets knocked off. Also they install easier than the stock ones (ie. with the gasket in place). Not to mention they are finned and probably drop 1 to 5 deg of oil temp.
(Please use safety wire though. If the bolts come out, they leak just as bad as the stock ones.)
(Please use safety wire though. If the bolts come out, they leak just as bad as the stock ones.)
Re: Bolt on valve covers
I think the same accident that could knock an old school cover off would crack open a new style cover anyway. In either case you still get oil on the track but you might have a little less with the new style .
It makes a lot of sense in Solo racing since it's really hard for a cone to crack a valve cover.
It makes a lot of sense in Solo racing since it's really hard for a cone to crack a valve cover.
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Re: Bolt on valve covers
I think if it was a "no-brainer", we would all be doing it anyway.
Clip-on valve covers are certainly easier than bolt-on covers to install and you don't have to worry about cracking by overtightening, or safety wire.
Last night, I was meeting with one engine-builder friend, who I told of the proposed rule. He looked annoyed. When I asked him why he used traditional covers, he said "he'd lost too many heads when the trailing arm came in and made contact with a bolt-on valve cover'. (most of the cars in our area have forward arms). I don't really care, as I have a stockpile that I have taken off, but it is clear that alot of people don't want the bolt-on ones.
Clip-on valve covers are certainly easier than bolt-on covers to install and you don't have to worry about cracking by overtightening, or safety wire.
Last night, I was meeting with one engine-builder friend, who I told of the proposed rule. He looked annoyed. When I asked him why he used traditional covers, he said "he'd lost too many heads when the trailing arm came in and made contact with a bolt-on valve cover'. (most of the cars in our area have forward arms). I don't really care, as I have a stockpile that I have taken off, but it is clear that alot of people don't want the bolt-on ones.
Greg Rice
"Happy 50th Birthday"
"Happy 50th Birthday"
Re: Bolt on valve covers
How many? And he knows that if it was a stock cover it wouldn't have hurt the head?problemchild wrote:he said "he'd lost too many heads when the trailing arm came in and made contact with a bolt-on valve cover'.
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Re: Bolt on valve covers
It looks like there are 2 camps, but like the front pulley issue, I don't see a performance advantage.
Trailing arm cars (in front of the axle) don't seem to have as much of a problem with the cover getting knocked off. Not to say it can't happen.
Leading arm cars do.
If there is no performance advantage, then I don't see any problem.
I will stay with my stock covers though...
ChrisZ
Trailing arm cars (in front of the axle) don't seem to have as much of a problem with the cover getting knocked off. Not to say it can't happen.
Leading arm cars do.
If there is no performance advantage, then I don't see any problem.
I will stay with my stock covers though...
ChrisZ
Re: Bolt on valve covers
Chris,
Bolt on valve covers are already legal, unlike the front pulley (seals) were at the time I assume you are referring to.
The question on the table is whether to *mandate* the use of bolt on valve covers under the assumption they would stay on more of the time, thus reducing the effect on the race that a major oil spill can have.
Last year's Runoffs is one example where the loss of a valve cover changed the whole race.
I was involved in an incident at turn 7 at Mid-Ohio (we were then running the keyhole) in the '98 Runoffs that also significantly effected that race. Not only did a lot of guys end up in the gravel trap down the hill with me, but due the yellow that lasted for the rest of the race, the "race" was mostly a procession from there on. It was not my valve cover, and at the time I was probably using bolt on covers, but that made no difference since that was not where the contact occurred on my car.
I believe that here is another problem with the clip on valve covers and that is that they will all too often "suck" a gasket, causing a significant leak in a short time. Of course this is not so much the fault of the cover, but the mechanic who failed to check it when the valves were last adjusted. Bolt on valve covers are more likely to just gradually seep more and more as a gasket goes bad.
So do we want to *mandate* bolt on valve covers? I don't know.
Bolt on valve covers are already legal, unlike the front pulley (seals) were at the time I assume you are referring to.
The question on the table is whether to *mandate* the use of bolt on valve covers under the assumption they would stay on more of the time, thus reducing the effect on the race that a major oil spill can have.
Last year's Runoffs is one example where the loss of a valve cover changed the whole race.
I was involved in an incident at turn 7 at Mid-Ohio (we were then running the keyhole) in the '98 Runoffs that also significantly effected that race. Not only did a lot of guys end up in the gravel trap down the hill with me, but due the yellow that lasted for the rest of the race, the "race" was mostly a procession from there on. It was not my valve cover, and at the time I was probably using bolt on covers, but that made no difference since that was not where the contact occurred on my car.
I believe that here is another problem with the clip on valve covers and that is that they will all too often "suck" a gasket, causing a significant leak in a short time. Of course this is not so much the fault of the cover, but the mechanic who failed to check it when the valves were last adjusted. Bolt on valve covers are more likely to just gradually seep more and more as a gasket goes bad.
So do we want to *mandate* bolt on valve covers? I don't know.
Last edited by cendiv37 on September 12th, 2011, 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bruce
cendiv37
cendiv37
Re: Bolt on valve covers
In my opinion, not yet, anyway. I thank Brian for bringing this up. My concern here with the question of mandating the bolt on valve covers is that we have reasonable statistics to base it on. Perhaps another question is, how often does losing a valve cover need to happen to make the situation intolerable? Jim appropriately asked Greg with regard to bolt on covers that damaged heads from leading arms contacting them if we knew the same would not have happened with the stock covers. The same question can be asked about whether the stock covers that were knocked off during races would not have been knocked off if they were bolt on. We really can't answer those questions, as valid as they are. We need to go by statistics.
Steve suggested that the almost certain engine getting trashed from the valve cover oil loss is not necessarily better than breaking the head. That's a fair statement. Although the heads may not easily be replaceable, since they are often the heart of an engine's performance. I would not worry about my engine getting back its old performance if I had to change everything but the heads, but the opposite is not true. Replacing a set of heads (or one head) will give you different engine performance. So, Mark and Greg's original concerns about the likelihood of the bolt on covers damaging a head is a valid one.
For me, I've never seen oil loss from a valve cover. I've seen a broken push rod tube dumping oil at our Rational this year. Yes, it poured out. I've seen an oil drain plug knocked loose from an off road excursion. Yes, it poured out, too. But, this is just my experience - very limited - I have two data points on the oil loss issue - sort of meaningless on its own. I've seen more repeated (and more dangerous) crashes from other specific part failures than from oil covers coming loose or coming off. Again - just my limited experience. Not enough to go by on its own.
We have people who have been in the sport a very many years and they have the most statistics. But everyone's experiences are important to have. My suggestions would be to attempt to gather some of it and see what that data supports. We can't go by the experiences of just a few. We need a broader set of experiences to minimize the effect of exaggerations, personal biases, and bad memories that will come from each contribution - we're only human!
I currently have a bias for what I'd like to do, but with more information, my mind can always be changed. John
Steve suggested that the almost certain engine getting trashed from the valve cover oil loss is not necessarily better than breaking the head. That's a fair statement. Although the heads may not easily be replaceable, since they are often the heart of an engine's performance. I would not worry about my engine getting back its old performance if I had to change everything but the heads, but the opposite is not true. Replacing a set of heads (or one head) will give you different engine performance. So, Mark and Greg's original concerns about the likelihood of the bolt on covers damaging a head is a valid one.
For me, I've never seen oil loss from a valve cover. I've seen a broken push rod tube dumping oil at our Rational this year. Yes, it poured out. I've seen an oil drain plug knocked loose from an off road excursion. Yes, it poured out, too. But, this is just my experience - very limited - I have two data points on the oil loss issue - sort of meaningless on its own. I've seen more repeated (and more dangerous) crashes from other specific part failures than from oil covers coming loose or coming off. Again - just my limited experience. Not enough to go by on its own.
We have people who have been in the sport a very many years and they have the most statistics. But everyone's experiences are important to have. My suggestions would be to attempt to gather some of it and see what that data supports. We can't go by the experiences of just a few. We need a broader set of experiences to minimize the effect of exaggerations, personal biases, and bad memories that will come from each contribution - we're only human!
I currently have a bias for what I'd like to do, but with more information, my mind can always be changed. John
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Re: Bolt on valve covers
You're kidding right? Our whole system is built on member input. Every decision is made by the effects of exaggerations, personal biases, and bad memoriesjpetillo wrote: We have people who have been in the sport a very many years and they have the most statistics. But everyone's experiences are important to have. My suggestions would be to attempt to gather some of it and see what that data supports. We can't go by the experiences of just a few. We need a broader set of experiences to minimize the effect of exaggerations, personal biases, and bad memories that will come from each contribution - we're only human!
I relayed comments from a high volume engine builder who also prepares customer cars and a rental fleet. It was his professional opinion based on his 35+ years experience. There is atleast one other high volume engine builder that has a similiar opinion. As I recall, Mr Noble was not a fan of bolt-on covers either. These are opinions. This is not a no-brainer. Right or wrong, many people have chosen not to use them for reasons that are valid to them.
I can personally say that I have had more problems with bolt-on covers than clip-on covers. I expect we would have more oily track problems immediately following this rule change, as people learned the nuances of using them ..... before returning to the status quo.
Greg Rice
"Happy 50th Birthday"
"Happy 50th Birthday"
Re: Bolt on valve covers
I noticed one performance difference a few years ago when I was still racing: The bolt-on covers with fins increase the frontal area of the car. Not very much, but all "aero" improvements are very small aren't they?
Life atrophies if it gets too far from risk
Re: Bolt on valve covers
Is there anything that can be done to increase the security of the clip that holds the stock valve cover, like a brace or lock of some kind, or safety wire? It seems like that would be the best of both worlds--keep the stock cover but decrease the chances of it being knocked off.
Re: Bolt on valve covers
Yeah... you could mount some sort of BOLT or similar to the head... and maybe drill a hole in the cover to let the bolt come through and ... OH.. we already have that, BOLT ON VALVE COVERSMatt King wrote:Is there anything that can be done to increase the security of the clip that holds the stock valve cover, like a brace or lock of some kind, or safety wire? It seems like that would be the best of both worlds--keep the stock cover but decrease the chances of it being knocked off.
You COULD safety wire the bail somehow, but any force that would knock the clip off would surely override the strength of the safety wire .. unless you didn't clip it properly in the first place.
The force of a TIRE against that bail is REALLY HIGH. It would take quite some mechanism to hold that bail in place. No doubt a LOT more effort than simply using the bolt on covers..
Steve, FV80
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
Re: Bolt on valve covers
Is there a problem with the covers just falling off?
I think with either cover there can be problems maybe different problems but problems
Yes.... make sure no one puts a wheel where a wheel should not be or you putting the car where is should not be.Is there anything that can be done to increase the security of the clip that holds the stock valve cover, like a brace or lock of some kind, or safety wire? It seems like that would be the best of both worlds--keep the stock cover but decrease the chances of it being knocked off.
I think with either cover there can be problems maybe different problems but problems
Mark Filip
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Re: Bolt on valve covers
Thats' what happens when you don't have a current GCR handy and the car is collecting dust in the garage.cendiv37 wrote:Chris,
Bolt on valve covers are already legal, unlike the front pulley (seals) were at the time I assume you are referring to.
The question on the table is whether to *mandate* the use of bolt on valve covers under the assumption they would stay on more of the time, thus reducing the effect on the race that a major oil spill can have.
I don't know.
I meant the aluminum pulleys which are optional and the bolt on covers should be optional. Lots of ways oil can get on the track - I don't see it as a problem to mandate it.
ChrisZ
Re: Bolt on valve covers
GCR is online for free and it always updated.Thats' what happens when you don't have a current GCR handy and the car is collecting dust in the garage.
ExactlyLots of ways oil can get on the track - I don't see it as a problem to mandate it.
Mark Filip
NER #27
Womer EV-3
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Womer EV-3
Re: Bolt on valve covers
OK, I will "make sure" that never happens. Maybe we should put it in the GCR: no FV may make contact with another car in such a manner that allows a valvecover to be knocked off.fvracer27 wrote:Yes.... make sure no one puts a wheel where a wheel should not be or you putting the car where is should not be.
Re: Bolt on valve covers
These are not bumper cars if you wanted to have contact with other cars go get a tin top. Its not supossed to happen period I never said it would never happen nor did I say stay 50' away from another car because I'm sure someone will give me crap for that. I guess I needed to put a smiliy face so everyone would see I did not mean it the way you took it. This is what make people not want to even say anything or get involved. Open wheel drivers should be able to run close at speed without touching ea other most of the time and yes there are times when something happens that's the way it is.OK, I will "make sure" that never happens. Maybe we should put it in the GCR: no FV may make contact with another car in such a manner that allows a valvecover to be knocked off.
Mark Filip
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Re: Bolt on valve covers
So it should never happen, we should always be able to drive close without touching - but sometimes it happens and that's the way it is. Huh?
I guess I agree, we should try to avoid contact (and we do..). It should never happen (it shouldn't, really!). But it happens - and it sucks when it does, so why not try to avoid some of the consequences? We should never crash and go upside down either, so why do we use helmets and roll bars?
I guess I agree, we should try to avoid contact (and we do..). It should never happen (it shouldn't, really!). But it happens - and it sucks when it does, so why not try to avoid some of the consequences? We should never crash and go upside down either, so why do we use helmets and roll bars?
Re: Bolt on valve covers
This was about valve covers and now we are talking about roll bars and helmets
Ill sit and read all the non sense and keep my thoughts to myself like most.
Ill sit and read all the non sense and keep my thoughts to myself like most.
Mark Filip
NER #27
Womer EV-3
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