Spec Tires

[problemchild]

As an FYI, the last FasTrack posted the announcement that a spec tire for FV would not be considered by the CRB despite the survey conducted by the Committee with over 70% of the respondents in favor of some form of spec tire. As an SCCA member and representative of the Committee, Bruce Livermore wrote a letter to the CRB requesting they consider a spec tire for FV based on the survey results . He will publish that letter on the Interchange within a few days.

BS
Write Lisa Noble, Bob Lybarger, and the rest of the BOD.
Tell them what you think about the CRBs decision.
Recently, the BOD has disregarded other CRB recommendations.

[P-2 Mark]

Greg,

What's the point of the survey if it's going to be rejected by the Board? There was a good response that represented
many, but not all of the driver's (impossible to do), and yet they rejected our thoughts and response that was approved
by 70% of the reponders! I'm smell a rat and wonder who is on the CRB that reviewed our request and made the decision?
So basically only a few people overuled several hundred of those who voted in favor of the "spec tire".. real nice SCCA!
And NOW you know why people are leaving the club because the minority are running the Majority!

Mark

P.S.: Now they (CRB) want our thoughts on the weight issue and we're supposed to respond after having our previous and
overwhelming vote on the "spec-tire" rejected? What a joke and waste of everyone's time! I am so pis##d by the
decision of the CRB. If the drivers didn't want spec-tires then the vote would have gone that way and I would have
accepted it because the majority rules... but not this behind the back BS!

[Speedsport]

Perhaps is was rejected by the board because they are more aware of the complications involved in such a proposal then some of the survey respondants? Not sure, but it's a thought.

[SR Racing]

I was not a big supporter of a tire change in FV for several reasons, but I was a little suprised by the short quick answer.

Mike, It would seem that it would be in the best interests of the club for the board to at least explain their actions. (They may be good reasons, but a seemingly majority vote deserves more than us having to guess their reasoning.)

[Speedsport]

I agree Jim - we should hear their reason. I'm sure it will come out, but it would be nice to have a direct statment as opposed to rumors.

[brian]

I will be on a conference call with the CRB tonight and will review the decision with the volunteers who work on the board. I don't see any of the hundreds of letters they receive monthly, so can't comment on the specific language in the vee spec tire letter. But the CRB may have considered having to assume the cost and time committment of selecting and managing another spec tire program. No easy undertaking. The SRF and SM classes pay additional entry fees to support tech compliance and tire programs and I don't recall any vee folks suggesting doing that. Please be patient, we're all volunteers who spend a ton of time making the process work. I'll report back when I have more info.

[P-2 Mark]

Brian,

I agree with your post and will wait to hear what you gathered from tonight's conference call. As Jim mentioned, their decision seemed fairly quick
and I wondered to what degree they placed any significance on the survey that was responded to by several hundred members? Also, there is
a request to respond to the CRB's inquiry about increasing the weight via survey, and based on how the tire survey was received, I ask why bother.
In addition, who makes up the CRB that made the decision per the "spec tires"?

Thanks!

Mark

[brian]

The CRB is made up of volunteer competitors who submit resume's and are appointed by the BOD. The BOD attempts to represent all the car categories and areas around the country via their appointments. Many come up from the advisory committees who specialize in different car categories. There is a Formula/Sports Racing committee that is made up of folks from the F/SR classes. There are drivers, vendors and prep shops on the committee. These committees have a conference call every month and hash out the letters received and pass on recommendations to the CRB. The CRB has monthly conference calls, usually 3 hours or more, go over the sub-committee's advice and make a recommendation to the BOD. You can imagine trying to go through hundreds of letters a month by yourself, so the delegation is required.

Sometimes the CRB has to deal with the philosophy of a class and issues a call like the one we received on the spec tire. Vees have very restrictive rules but it is not a spec class.

From time to time, requests for resume's go out in Fastrac and everyone is welcome to submit one. Like our own semi formal Vee committee, it will require a fair amount of time and an impartial open mind.

[cendiv37]

As we stated in the April minutes, I was to post the letter I sent to the crb so everyone knew what I said. In fact I was just waiting for the minutes to be posted. I sent the letter because we decided it was necessary as a way to initiate an official discussion within SCCA. This takes a letter from an SCCA member to start the process and I was the designee...

Here's what I wrote:

*********************************************************
CRB Letter Tracking Number #7695

Body:

In an attempt to understand the desires of the FV community, the FV Ad Hoc Committee did a survey via the Formula Vee Registry
http://www.formulavee.us/

The committee received 254 responses.

The question was asked: Would you like to see a spec tire implemented for Formula Vee with the intent of lowering overall tire expenses?"
The responses were: Yes 77%; No 23%

The FV Committee has begun investigating how it might be possible to develop and implement a spec. tire in FV.

We ask the CRB to consider whether a spec. tire would be good for FV, especially considering the survey results.

A summary of the entire survey is attached.

Thank you for you consideration.
Bruce Livermore
Member FV Ad Hoc Committee

Attachment: Survey Responses Summary
<Survey Response Summary.docx>

*******************************************************

Most of what was in the attached "Survey Responses Summary.docx" is here:

http://www.formulavee.org/interchange/v ... =15&t=4632

I will try to set up a link to the word doc itself tonight.
Here's the link (includes survey results for all questions): Survey Responses Summary

[hardingfv32-1]

Just out of curiosity who do you think would implement a FV spec tire program at the SCCA administration level. The CRB and Brd can approve such a proposal, but they are not going to implement it. Who handles such activities at the SCCA office?

Brian

[cendiv37]

Link added to Survey Response Summary.doc in my post above.

[Rickydel]

I asked a CRB member that I know personally, and he did some asking around. His reply:

I did a little research, here is what I found out:
1. FV, was never meant to be a spec tire class
2. Cost for SCCA to do a full test with all the manufactures, to find the right tire, is very expensive, and the tire companies usually don't like to contribute to this test.
3. Survey not done by SCCA
4. Current tire costs from Hoosier and Goodyear are within 85-90% of the proposed budget prices.
5. Currently only (2) tire vendors can supply and support the tracks through out the country (Hoosier and Goodyear).

[tiagosantos]

In reply to the first point - was FV ever meant to have +$25k cars? +$5k motors? Wind tunnel tested bodies? Things change..

And point number 3 proves a point I tried to make a few months ago - we need to legitimize the FV committee, otherwise they're just wasting their time. If that 3r point is true, it seems the CRB takes offense to someone else doing what they should be doing..?

[hardingfv32-1]

it seems the CRB takes offense to someone else doing what they should be doing

This is not true. Effective help is always welcome. They just are not going to approve a change that requires additional administrative effort on the part of SCCA.

Someone has to put the effort out to present the CRB with a program that is in agreement with a vast majority of the FV competitor ... AND ... ready for complete implementation without SCCA's management. Submission of the survey showed a complete lack of understanding of what is required or just a form of appeasement for those desiring a spec tire.

Brian

[brian]

I appreciate everyone being patient and Rickey has covered the major points that I have learned as well. Let me highlight some details to underscore what's been said.
The testing and selection process is very complicated. In the case of SM, the tire companies paid for the testing and teams volunteered their cars. Remember the investment made by the tire companies makes sense since the class is huge and a return on investment is possible. Not quite the same with the vee program. Enterprises conducted their own test for the SRF class. Anti trust litigation from failed bidders is always lurking so the process must be pristine and defensible.
The staff at Topeka is working on a major data collection process that will utilize the existing membership program and will give us the ability to survey by class. The BOD is pushing really hard for this tool and hope to have it go online this year. The folks on our vee committee worked really hard to do their survey but there were a lot of folks that didn't provide input. While it's nearly impossible to know exactly how many active drivers there are, we do know that there were 101 individual national drivers that ran in 2011 and somewhere around 250 active regional drivers. When this new system is in place the CRB & BOD can do surveys of their own.
Class philosophy for vees is very different from the SRF & SM since we have many different chassis and suspensions. Picking one tire that would fit all kinds of vees would be very difficult.
The last issue is a bit touchy and please take this with a grain of salt. Those of us, who have to make decisions with limited input, have developed a healthy sense of caution when it comes to trusting what's said on the internet and forums. While certainly no one on this forum can be accused, there are a lot of "keyboard commandos" who rant about everything and know very little about the facts. The moderators of the forums often get involved to calm things down, so don't expect your volunteer leaders to take everything on the internet as gospel.
Finally, there are many pitfalls associated with spec tires. Many of which I have mentioned in previous postings. History tells us that tire developement will decrease and prices will tend to rise. Your board members have seen it happen before.
I know this will sound redundent,I would suggest that you write the CRB and ask for a reconsideration. It's how the system is set up.

[SR Racing]

Brian is correct. And this is why I didn't support a spec tire for FV. It was really a "be careful what you ask for thing". I don't think we want to decrease the participation by tire companies, I don't want to pay any more to the SCCA for running the tests and or administration fees. I don't think this is the best way to decrease tires costs or overall costs. My only issue was why the short response without reasoning. (and Brian may be able to get those answers.)

Re: Legitimizing of the AdHoc committe: As a vendor and racer, I think I have always tried to support things that kept the costs low, parts available and the class viable. IMO, this has been done poorly by the SCCA and while I haven't agreed with the adhoc commitee in all cases, there at least was open discussion and lively debate about what was going on. I could certainly participate openly and have much better access to the pros and cons of each suggested change. (and their monthly updates on discussions to us via this site and others was very wlecome.) The SCCA is the "secret" car club in multiple ways.

I was on the SCCA advisory board for a year a few years ago. While I input my feelings on the few items that did come up in Formula Vee in particular, there was no real discussion. The final board did what they wanted to without further input.

From the past:

The seat belt rule. (2 year SFI update). I DO NOT believe that this was forced by the insurance companies. There was no good explaination of why these belts had to be replace this often. Was there ANY study of belt failure incidents ? And I would bet IF there were any they were installation issues, NOT belt failures. Replacing them every 2 yeas only aggravates that potential.

AMB Devices. You are now paying $450 dollars (yes they raised the price) for a $25 device. (I did the work.) This was due to a very poor decision by the SCCA.

"SECRET Car Club" Almost no expenditures for the promotion of the Club (or any classes). Advertising is cheap. There are 1000's of Walter Mitty's out there that have never heard of us and an ad before during or after a Speedvision, etc. race is cheap. It would generate lots of interest.

I could go on and on, but probably so can you. It appears to me to be a very poorly run business. (or club)

[billinstuart]

This "spec tire" issue has been going on for decades, and has never been successful.

[Mystique Racing]

Spec tires have been successful in many areas such as the SF region and the Canadian series.

[problemchild]

The only conclusion that can be reached from these actions are that SCCA and the CRB are trying to hasten the demise of this wonderful class that has survived 50 years.

It needs help. There are very few ways to provide that help. Refusing to acknowledge and explore the one obvious tool that can help is just plain stupid. If there are only two companies capable of supplying a nationwide spec tire, then that makes the task easier, not difficult. Ask Goodyear if they want to compete for the honor. If not, give it to Hoosier. If Goodyear does want to compete, then give them 3 monthes to build a tire. Test them with Hoosier's version in August. Decide by Labor Day. Easy. 4 monthes to spare. Spec tires to celebrate the Birthday party! YES, it is that easy!



How many "open tire" FV races in 2012 will have more than the 16 cars at the first F1200 event (on Falken spec tires)? The racing was awesome with 7 cars in the lead pack, 5 in the second pack, all on tires more than a year old, and costing $75 each. Time for FV people to start helping themselves and stop being manipulated by selfish bullies or political types who don't give a damn about FV!

[FVartist]

Greg states:

"YES, it is that easy!"

Only to those that refuse to listen. As for taking a swipe at someone that has a differing view than you, not very helpful in pushing your cause. Very childish.

Bruce

[problemchild]

I don't listen to quitters or people trying to sabatoge FV revival.

If the hundred or so remaining active FV drivers banded together and demanded it happen, it would happen pretty damn quick. Instead, we let a few vocal people sabatoge every positive effort made to benefit the FV community, while claming to be investigating their own solutions (3 yrs and counting with no positive solutions forthcoming). If someone you knew was dying, or your business was dying, and some clerk told you they could not help you, would you just shrug it off, and let it happen, give up without even a fight? Very few would. I would not. Some SCCA volunteers cannot be bothered to help. They would not mind if FV went away. Don't let them succeed.

[JSM 16]

I have to agree with Greg on this one folks. I've been around Vee's for along time but have not been able to race for a while because of family illness and economic down turn in Michigan. (just don't have the expendable cash flow I used to have) I have driven vee's in Canada and U.S. the testing of a spec tire has already been done(hum,hum, Canada). Who says that it has to be a slick tire, the tire being used in Canada is not that bad. Let's face it competition is still competition. Yes the radial d.o.t. tires slide around a bit and their heavier, So what isn't this class built around car control and momentem rather than how many sets of slicks I can bolt on and over drive the corner. Remember we have not always run on slicks. I am currently rebuilding my vee with full intentions of racing full time next season and if things keep on going the way they are now My money will be spent with our neighbors across the Detroit River. Racing is still racing agree or dis-agree Tire cost are always going to be a main detracter in any form of Motorsports, why can't we get it thru our thick skull's that it does not have to be this way. J. Spencer

[Rolling Stone]

I am on my THIRD season with the FALKEN AZENAS in ontario...being one of the slow guys has helped save the tread i admit...but this first race we just had and having a rebuilt engine i have gone the fastest ever around Mosport for me...still slow but improving and all on 3 year old SPEC tires.First time on them in 2010 I hated them......then got used to them and $75 each!!!!!!!besides..I think Vees on Radials dont go as fast but LOOK a lot better I dont want to TREAD on any toes,especially with you SLICK US drivers Safe racing for 2012 to you all.

[billinstuart]

If you use the stock wheels it may help. Tried the wide wheels and tires years ago, destroyed the suspension. Too much spinning/vibrating mass for the components. The same "too much mass issue" is still present with stock tires, but it may be manageable. ANY! wheel with an offset centerline will put extra load on brake drums, bearings, and steering components.

Vee started out racing on treaded tires. Early z-bar/cable limited cars actually had real front tires. Many tracks are slow enough or have long enough turns that rears can be used on the front with no loss of lap times.

[problemchild]

Brian says to write the CRB and ask them to reconsider. Follow the system. Well, the system has failed FV. We need the BOD to step in and get things done. ASAP! NOW! No time to waste! Write the BOD and demand action!