This post is in response to the F1200 topic in the events section:
http://www.formulavee.org/interchange/v ... f=4&t=3686
I know there have been posts about spec tires and such, but does F1200 make anyone think that we should be looking into cheaper tires as well as intakes?
There's been a lot of debate about intakes and yes, the price of intakes is high and some people don't want to pay for the best intake out there, but aren't tires even more expensive in the long run? An intake will last quite a while, but you're tires are a critical piece and you're buying new ones constantly...
Another thing I noticed when I went to the F1200 site is that the average age of their drivers seems to be much lower than ours in FV... could it be the lower price? If so, don't we need some/more younger drivers in FV?
Soo... should we be debating what kind of tire to use along with the intake debate?!
F1200
F1200
HendricksRacing Site:
www.HendricksRacing.net
www.HendricksRacing.net
Re: F1200
Take the time and do a search. this subject has been beat to death.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
Re: F1200
I've seen the posts, but why has nothing ever come of them?
It seems like the intake issue moved pretty quickly...
It seems like the intake issue moved pretty quickly...
HendricksRacing Site:
www.HendricksRacing.net
www.HendricksRacing.net
Re: F1200
Barrett,
F1200 is a Regional series, not National in scope. Put your head together with the other FV racers in SWDIV and create a Regional Spec Tire FV Series. If it is well received other Divisions might embrace it. This is how IT and Spec Miata came into being.
Neil
F1200 is a Regional series, not National in scope. Put your head together with the other FV racers in SWDIV and create a Regional Spec Tire FV Series. If it is well received other Divisions might embrace it. This is how IT and Spec Miata came into being.
Neil
Re: F1200
Nothing ever comes from these debates because of the inertia of having a 47 year old class. People that are serious enough to run a national schedule or in a strong regional series have an inventory of parts (not to be confused with an "investment" of parts) that they do not want to be obsoleted by a rule change. They don't want to hear some newbie's cost-saving suggestion of the moment because it will cost them money and they're pretty sure that in 3-5 years the newbie won't be racing in FV anyway. They will also quote strong Runoffs participation as proof that everything is fine while regional entries dwindle to the point that regions wonder why they need to allot track time for the class.
Bob VanDyke
Re: F1200
I don't want to start another rant but everyone knows what is needed to get a spec tire. Very few have actually made the transisition from talking to acting. SF region has a spec tire, Stephen Saslow offerred to start a group but no one offerred to join. Hooiser has said it is willing to supply a harder compound but no one has asked. I hate to say it but talk is cheap, especially when it's done on company time.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
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problemchild
- Posts: 901
- Joined: June 25th, 2006, 9:34 am
Re: F1200
Every time a good healthy positive discussion breaks out .... several people immediately sabotage the discussion by mongering fear and saying nay.
These people build their own cars, have their own dynos, and are fiercely protective of their hard-earned advantages. If one checks out Erik's post on Apexspeed, we see that Brian and Michael immediately have to point out flaws. Where have we seen this before?
I am sorry, but I do not believe that a reigning National Champion pays for tires, intake manifolds, or retail rates for engine development, etc. I have no problem with that earned priviledge, until that person starts complaining that reducing racing expenses for everybody, will cost him money. That can come out of the cylinder head testing, data acquisition, or wind-tunnel budget.
I will support virtually any spec tire initiative.
Added later...
Based on comments below, Steve, Michael, and Mark seem to want to make this personal but I would prefer to keep it on topic. I much prefer to worry about what is best for FV. What is best for Greg or Michael or Brian or Steve or Mark or Barrett individually is irrelevent. That has been my point all along.
The text above is unedited. Steve and Mark slammed me below based on comments I supposedly made here that I never made or insinuated. I was addressing the question asked.
Question ....Why do good cost-saving initiatives die before even getting past the discussion phase?
My answer ... There are 3 people, all who build their own cars, and have their own dyno development programs, who immediately dismiss every possible or potential cost-saving idea put forth. They have totally unique programs that are probably representative of .5% of the FV community. They are different than Barrett, Mark, or even Steve and myself who build our own cars, but they are the ones that sabatoge virtually every meaningful discussion that emerges. We all know that. It is not a revelation! They have been very effective!
I consider it totally hypocritical to complain about across-the-board savings initiatives when one has the most extensive FV development program in the country. Because Michael is so vocal, I think it is fair to point that out. I think that anyone who has a program worthy of being a serious Runoff contender needs to consider that they are not typical of the average FV racer.
For the record ..... I have never said that an intake manifold was the reason Michael won the Runoffs. I would totally disagree. He obviously has the most developed driver/car/engine package in the country. The only person who I have ever heard credit his manifold was Michael. The opening words to the PA announcer after the Runoffs was an infomercial for Brian.
Also for the record .... Hoosier normally gives free tires to National Champions for the next season and Brian was offering a refund if you bought a manifold from him and won the Runoffs.
These people build their own cars, have their own dynos, and are fiercely protective of their hard-earned advantages. If one checks out Erik's post on Apexspeed, we see that Brian and Michael immediately have to point out flaws. Where have we seen this before?
I am sorry, but I do not believe that a reigning National Champion pays for tires, intake manifolds, or retail rates for engine development, etc. I have no problem with that earned priviledge, until that person starts complaining that reducing racing expenses for everybody, will cost him money. That can come out of the cylinder head testing, data acquisition, or wind-tunnel budget.
I will support virtually any spec tire initiative.
Added later...
Based on comments below, Steve, Michael, and Mark seem to want to make this personal but I would prefer to keep it on topic. I much prefer to worry about what is best for FV. What is best for Greg or Michael or Brian or Steve or Mark or Barrett individually is irrelevent. That has been my point all along.
The text above is unedited. Steve and Mark slammed me below based on comments I supposedly made here that I never made or insinuated. I was addressing the question asked.
Question ....Why do good cost-saving initiatives die before even getting past the discussion phase?
My answer ... There are 3 people, all who build their own cars, and have their own dyno development programs, who immediately dismiss every possible or potential cost-saving idea put forth. They have totally unique programs that are probably representative of .5% of the FV community. They are different than Barrett, Mark, or even Steve and myself who build our own cars, but they are the ones that sabatoge virtually every meaningful discussion that emerges. We all know that. It is not a revelation! They have been very effective!
I consider it totally hypocritical to complain about across-the-board savings initiatives when one has the most extensive FV development program in the country. Because Michael is so vocal, I think it is fair to point that out. I think that anyone who has a program worthy of being a serious Runoff contender needs to consider that they are not typical of the average FV racer.
For the record ..... I have never said that an intake manifold was the reason Michael won the Runoffs. I would totally disagree. He obviously has the most developed driver/car/engine package in the country. The only person who I have ever heard credit his manifold was Michael. The opening words to the PA announcer after the Runoffs was an infomercial for Brian.
Also for the record .... Hoosier normally gives free tires to National Champions for the next season and Brian was offering a refund if you bought a manifold from him and won the Runoffs.
Last edited by problemchild on February 19th, 2010, 2:10 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Greg Rice
"Happy 50th Birthday"
"Happy 50th Birthday"
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Speedsport
- Posts: 170
- Joined: October 20th, 2006, 7:45 pm
Re: F1200
No one has any idea what I pay for, and to imply I don't pay for tires, engine work, manifolds, ect is actually a little on the insulting side. I bought a manifold just like everyone else, I buy tires (although through the grace of contingency not as much as I used to), and I certainly pay for engine work.
I AM damn protective of my advantages. I have them not because I spent a lot of money. I don't have a lot of money. I have them because I worked my ass of to get them. My advantages don't come from tires or manifolds. Everyone has access to the same tires I do, and everyone has access to the same manifolds I do. In fact, I'm willing to bet there are plenty of racers out there who used more tires then I have the past years, and in 2007 and 2008 I certainly didn't have the best manifold, and I'm not even sure I did in 2009. My advantages come from the hours and hours and hours of work I've put in to maximizing the things that I do have. That's something everyone can do, but most don't care enough to. It's so much easier to sit back and complain that so and so has the best, rather then put the effort into finding your own advantages.
I AM damn protective of my advantages. I have them not because I spent a lot of money. I don't have a lot of money. I have them because I worked my ass of to get them. My advantages don't come from tires or manifolds. Everyone has access to the same tires I do, and everyone has access to the same manifolds I do. In fact, I'm willing to bet there are plenty of racers out there who used more tires then I have the past years, and in 2007 and 2008 I certainly didn't have the best manifold, and I'm not even sure I did in 2009. My advantages come from the hours and hours and hours of work I've put in to maximizing the things that I do have. That's something everyone can do, but most don't care enough to. It's so much easier to sit back and complain that so and so has the best, rather then put the effort into finding your own advantages.
Re: F1200
as an f1200 driver in a "regional" series, thought i would touch on the average age of our drivers. not gonna touch anything else.
on the surface we look to be the same, but i think there are a lot of differences and when you break things down, the way we do things here wouldnt work down there and vice versa.
currently our average age has nothing to do with the rule set or spec anything. the primary reason is about 5 years ago the club realized that its car counts were dwindling as no new blood entered the vee ranks as the ladder system from karts to pro open wheel racing essentially negates needing to spend any time in a vee.
the club went on a mission and marketed itself to the local karting community that f1200 offers great open wheel racing in your backyard, is cost effective and is a great place to develop your open wheel skills. once a handful of youngsters joined and liked it, a couple more joined the following year etc and etc and continues to grow. I would be willing to wager that the average age of the grid has come down 20-25 years in the past 3 years and the car count back up to close to 20 per event.
old people like to do old things together, young people like to do young things together...the two dont mix very well. Our series is very lucky to have an influx of young Canadian racing talent. Our series has lost some of its older drivers from years past because of the young entrants to the series recently, but that's ok, i hope they come back.
FYI, there is no national open wheel class anywhere in canada, the top being the ontario formula ford championship, then there is the Quebec Formula ford championship, and then there's us, Ontario F1200. It's just as hard to win the 1200 title these days vs. the fords.
while the 1200's may be similar to US Vee, the way we are able to govern ourselves (smaller population, quick to change) our series is completely different in how it operates and what type of driver is currently interested in it.
the last thing that i will mention is that in ontario if you want to road race you're limited to basically 4 series. 2 open wheel and 2 GT series. how many do you have down there about 30 classes?
anyway...good luck in 2010 no matter where you race
on the surface we look to be the same, but i think there are a lot of differences and when you break things down, the way we do things here wouldnt work down there and vice versa.
currently our average age has nothing to do with the rule set or spec anything. the primary reason is about 5 years ago the club realized that its car counts were dwindling as no new blood entered the vee ranks as the ladder system from karts to pro open wheel racing essentially negates needing to spend any time in a vee.
the club went on a mission and marketed itself to the local karting community that f1200 offers great open wheel racing in your backyard, is cost effective and is a great place to develop your open wheel skills. once a handful of youngsters joined and liked it, a couple more joined the following year etc and etc and continues to grow. I would be willing to wager that the average age of the grid has come down 20-25 years in the past 3 years and the car count back up to close to 20 per event.
old people like to do old things together, young people like to do young things together...the two dont mix very well. Our series is very lucky to have an influx of young Canadian racing talent. Our series has lost some of its older drivers from years past because of the young entrants to the series recently, but that's ok, i hope they come back.
FYI, there is no national open wheel class anywhere in canada, the top being the ontario formula ford championship, then there is the Quebec Formula ford championship, and then there's us, Ontario F1200. It's just as hard to win the 1200 title these days vs. the fords.
while the 1200's may be similar to US Vee, the way we are able to govern ourselves (smaller population, quick to change) our series is completely different in how it operates and what type of driver is currently interested in it.
the last thing that i will mention is that in ontario if you want to road race you're limited to basically 4 series. 2 open wheel and 2 GT series. how many do you have down there about 30 classes?
anyway...good luck in 2010 no matter where you race
Andrew McMurray
EX - Ontario F1200
EX - Ontario F1200
Re: F1200 - OT
I would like to put a word in for Mike here. I agree 100% with what he says in this post. A manifold didn't win the championship for him. Some of you out there figure that anyone who kicks your ass is either cheating or BUYING 'super' stuff that you can't afford ( I know that *I* felt that way in my early years). In my (now, quite extensive) experience that is just NOT TRUE. It *is* true that some parts are better than others - it is also true that some parts work better with other parts - and that is just a fact of life. You guys ARE insulting Mike. How come no one started in on Stout for all the years that he won?? The main reason is that he doesn't enter into ANY of these discussions. He is "invisible" on the internet and stays in the background (until the racing starts). Mike has been nice enough to provide data on his own manifolds to the Committee - something that most of you didn't "waste" your time on. He's at least more involved in the FV Community than just idle banter on these forums.Speedsport wrote:No one has any idea what I pay for, and to imply I don't pay for tires, engine work, manifolds, ect is actually a little on the insulting side. I bought a manifold just like everyone else, I buy tires (although through the grace of contingency not as much as I used to), and I certainly pay for engine work.
I AM damn protective of my advantages. ...
I have watched Mike move from the middle of the second pack at Mid Ohio to the front row over a number of years. I've seen him get snookered by a yellow and lose a Championship that he probably should have won. I've seen him get beaten when it looked like he had it in the bag. But I have yet to hear him BLAME anyone else's PARTS for it - or accuse them of BUYING better parts than him. Are there better "parts" out there? Sure - some are even more expensive than others - some are cheaper, but harder to find. Some are just "almost the same" as everyone else's but it takes tons of time and effort to find them and make them work together better than something else. Al and Mike are ... and HAVE BEEN putting that effort forward and it resulted in one of the largest victory margins ever recorded in FV. They did that with WORK and EFFORT much more than money.
I know for a FACT that it takes a tremendous amount of time and effort just to RACE anywhere close to the front of the Runoffs. A LOT more time than most are willing to (or CAN) spend to do it. Does it take MONEY? You bet your ass it does - but not nearly as much as you seem to think. TIME is the biggest factor that I know of. You can BUY that time by hiring others to do the work, but Mike and Al haven't been doing that. I have yet to see anyone other than the 2 of them working on Mike's car - paid or not. They designed and built their own car - complete. A monumental task in itself ... and they made it work with YEARS of effort and minor changes as they crept toward the front. They didn't give up (like a LOT of people) - they didn't BLAME anyone else (like a lot of people). They had the drive and desire to MAKE IT HAPPEN!
Please consider respecting that effort for what it is. THAT'S what it takes to be a National Champion in FV. Congrats again, Mike
Repectfully,
Stevan Davis, FV80
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
Re: F1200
Again, the subject has been lost because one driver has insulted several other drivers who have won the "National Championship"
in the past, insinuating that it wasn't talent, but rather all the "freebies" they received that got them to the checkered first. We
all know that's B.S., and even Greg knows that since he's put in as much time as anyone designing and working on his car. Let's
leave the insults off the board and get back to the topic initially discussed, which I think was about "spec tires" etc...............
in the past, insinuating that it wasn't talent, but rather all the "freebies" they received that got them to the checkered first. We
all know that's B.S., and even Greg knows that since he's put in as much time as anyone designing and working on his car. Let's
leave the insults off the board and get back to the topic initially discussed, which I think was about "spec tires" etc...............
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DanRemmers
- Posts: 293
- Joined: June 24th, 2006, 7:21 pm
Re: F1200
Can you provide more details on the discussions with the local karting community? Did you put F1200 posters up at kart tracks? Start a Facebook group, offer discounts, free tickets, car rentals?hojo wrote:the club went on a mission and marketed itself to the local karting community that f1200 offers great open wheel racing in your backyard, is cost effective and is a great place to develop your open wheel skills.
Re: F1200
club went to local karting clubs in the area, mostly 4 cycle clubs that also had 2 cycle programs and setup an information booth/show car while also sponsoring that weekend for the kart club which usually involves paying for trophies i believe.
they might also have put together a draw for a free test day for someone as well.
I was not directly involved with running this so I do not have absolute specifics
they might also have put together a draw for a free test day for someone as well.
I was not directly involved with running this so I do not have absolute specifics
Andrew McMurray
EX - Ontario F1200
EX - Ontario F1200
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Speedsport
- Posts: 170
- Joined: October 20th, 2006, 7:45 pm
Re: F1200
Wow Steve, thanks for that post. I know I'm an easy target here, and it probably would have been best for me to remain silent on these issues. But I'm just not comfortable with the information I have seen to support things like spec tires or manifolds at this point.
Back to the topic:
I think that Hoosier and Goodyear have been fantastic at supplying us with great tires while keeping costs down. My concern is if everyone switched to a spec tire and only needed 1 set a year, how could the companies that support us even stay in business? Aren't tires cheaper now when adjusted for inflation then they were 10 years ago?
I'm interested in hearing more about how FV's are promoted in Canada.
Back to the topic:
I think that Hoosier and Goodyear have been fantastic at supplying us with great tires while keeping costs down. My concern is if everyone switched to a spec tire and only needed 1 set a year, how could the companies that support us even stay in business? Aren't tires cheaper now when adjusted for inflation then they were 10 years ago?
I'm interested in hearing more about how FV's are promoted in Canada.
Re: F1200
since i'm not an actual rep or anything for the ontario f1200 series, and do not want to misrepresent the FTDA in any way, i would suggest anyone interested in our series visits our website http://www.formula1200.com
and you can find email addresses to our executive. theres also some useful information on there...not the greatest and i doubt anyone who has been in vee for any length of time would learn anything, but hey its a nice read for newbies.
and if anyone watched that video link that greg posted...that's my camera!
and you can find email addresses to our executive. theres also some useful information on there...not the greatest and i doubt anyone who has been in vee for any length of time would learn anything, but hey its a nice read for newbies.
and if anyone watched that video link that greg posted...that's my camera!
Andrew McMurray
EX - Ontario F1200
EX - Ontario F1200
Re: F1200
hojo wrote:club went to local karting clubs in the area, mostly 4 cycle clubs that also had 2 cycle programs and setup an information booth/show car while also sponsoring that weekend for the kart club which usually involves paying for trophies i believe.
they might also have put together a draw for a free test day for someone as well.
I was not directly involved with running this so I do not have absolute specifics
wow... not to say I told you so but...
http://www.formulavee.org/interchange/v ... =24&t=3238
I think that recruiting drivers is just what FV needs.
I know some younger drivers can spend whatever they want on a car (a lot of kart daddies have big wallets) and they'll probably spend a fortune on something that looks faster with wings and such ...good riddance!
FV seems like a logical choice for the younger drivers in karting who want to get into a "real car". That's the path I took because my dad wasn't footing all my racing bills... but now I have to throw a bunch of (what some would call) unnecessary money at the car to stay competitive. The original reason I went to FV was because it was the only one I could afford (at least the initial cost was the cheapest).
I don't want to start any controversies or insult anyone by bringing up this topic... I'm just saying wasn't the original point of FV to be the cheapest class?
I'm not against the sport evolving and become faster and more competitive (that's what racing's about), but are we deviating from the original goal of FV?
I have a stock of fresh tires and spare manifolds and don't want to throw everything out... but then again, the savings would pay back over time and I'd really like to see a bigger turnout at races!
HendricksRacing Site:
www.HendricksRacing.net
www.HendricksRacing.net
Re: F1200
Sticks and stones yada yada.....I'm really not against spec tires, they work in SF region and they can work anywhere someone want to organize it and make it happen. It works up North with 8 or 9 events and a few dozen cars, but I don't think it can happen a national basis. Not because anyone has a special deal but it will be very difficult to manage and enforce. Hell, we can't get Topeka to enforce split starts with SRF.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
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GrapeFarmerAl
- Posts: 21
- Joined: November 12th, 2006, 6:05 pm
Re: F1200
While I agree with Steve and Mike about the hard work and dedication that wins championships the problem persists that we need new blood in the sport and to increase the participation numbers. Look at the MARRS series with the lap limiting. This is not a direction in which we need to be headed. There seems to be a Chicken Little attitude, ‘The manifolds are bigger, the manifolds are bigger…’ Personally I’m glad to see that thee is a spec manifold in the committee’s possession and has been tested. I’m not sure of the need for a restrictor plate as a separate piece, perhaps it could be built into the carb flange. You know K.I.S.S. Maybe we should leave the restrictor plate idea alone and make more horse power. Yes more horsepower and that will lead into my argument for spec tires.
Yes the Canadians have them and oh, they are “only a regional series” but who cares, they’re doing something right. New blood. Currently a set of Canadian spec tires (Falkens) are $264 per set delivered. If you purchase them before March 31, 2010 they are $184. If there are those that believe the performance drops off after one weekend, fine, let them buy a new set every weekend. That still makes the cost of tires less than 50% of what they are now. Then, all the one weekend tires can be “donated” or sold to regional drivers that will use them all season. Yes people will have to change setups and refigure things, but in the end the Steves, Michaels and Brads will be at the front, because they work harder and apply themselves more. The difference is more money in the pocket at the end of the weekend. Maybe with more spare cash everyone can race a few more weekends and isn’t that what this is all about, going racing, not spending unnecessary money.
Yes the Canadians have them and oh, they are “only a regional series” but who cares, they’re doing something right. New blood. Currently a set of Canadian spec tires (Falkens) are $264 per set delivered. If you purchase them before March 31, 2010 they are $184. If there are those that believe the performance drops off after one weekend, fine, let them buy a new set every weekend. That still makes the cost of tires less than 50% of what they are now. Then, all the one weekend tires can be “donated” or sold to regional drivers that will use them all season. Yes people will have to change setups and refigure things, but in the end the Steves, Michaels and Brads will be at the front, because they work harder and apply themselves more. The difference is more money in the pocket at the end of the weekend. Maybe with more spare cash everyone can race a few more weekends and isn’t that what this is all about, going racing, not spending unnecessary money.
Re: F1200
i'll have to second Steve. Mike earned that win. I seriously doubt anybody else could have taken his equipment and won in such dominating fashion. likewise, he could probably take just about any car that comes to the runoffs and be running up front. the whole point of this class is that it is the driver, not the car that wins the races and championships. even with the new manifold, the well prepared cars are still not all that different. the cream still rises to the top, as it always has. no amount of trick suspension or horsepower goodies will land you a victory lap at the runoffs if you're not among the best amateur racers in the nation.
I'm of the belief that we should be changing rules to allow for alternate parts only when we can no longer track down the ones we currently use. and strict enforcement of our spec. class status and the wording "if it doesn't say you can, you can't". the rules for our class are meant to specify what we are allowed to do, far more than what we are not allowed to do.
for spec tires, i could see where it may be of use. the argument that hoosier and goodyear's livelihood relies solely on vee drivers buying tires is a head scratcher at best. however, at the same time, competition breeds innovation and ultimately provides a better tire at a lower price in order for the aforementioned companies to retain customers as well as attain new ones. if we were to go to a spec tire or even a street radial, we'll lose the benefits to having several companies compete over us and only us.
I'm of the belief that we should be changing rules to allow for alternate parts only when we can no longer track down the ones we currently use. and strict enforcement of our spec. class status and the wording "if it doesn't say you can, you can't". the rules for our class are meant to specify what we are allowed to do, far more than what we are not allowed to do.
for spec tires, i could see where it may be of use. the argument that hoosier and goodyear's livelihood relies solely on vee drivers buying tires is a head scratcher at best. however, at the same time, competition breeds innovation and ultimately provides a better tire at a lower price in order for the aforementioned companies to retain customers as well as attain new ones. if we were to go to a spec tire or even a street radial, we'll lose the benefits to having several companies compete over us and only us.