So, who was the yellow car?

[qposner]

I received this in an email. Went to RA from the west coast and got taken out at the start due to this. Looks like 3 cars trying to go in a spot with enough room for 2.5. I know its a racing accident, but its a long way to go to not make it to turn 1.

http://wedgeracing.com/video/Runoffs%20 ... 20spin.wmv

[cendiv37]

Yellow on the left (I think) or yellow in the middle???

[qposner]

Yellow on the left (I think) or yellow in the middle???

Either I guess. i was thinking middle at first, but realized he was bumped by the yellow on the left. Just curious who they were.

[cendiv37]

Check your grid sheet...

[FV80]

Quinn,
I am the originator of the video - I sent it only to the FOUR people in that line (originally). They are left to right
Charlie Hearn, Ron Whitston, Ed Womer, Donnie Isley. Don't know who sent it to you.

From what I saw live, and what I've seen on MANY replays of the video, there is no "fault" here ... There are FOUR cars trying to squeeze into a 2.5 car space. Ed came out on the shortest (of the four) end of the stick, but got lucky and spun around into the correct direction and continued. You can run within an inch of another car with no trouble, but when that separation becomes negative, NOTHING can stop it. Sorry about your long tow, but it's just "a racing incident" - somewhat similar to the T12 incident 10 laps later. Too many people trying to get through the same space. Could it have been avoided ?? Sure - just convince ONE of those guys to let everyone else go.
Which one ??
Steve

PS. I thought Charlie Rogers was the only guy that couldn't drive away ... Guess you too ??
PPS. Anyone who hasn't should watch the start of the FF race from Bill Valet's video on Vimeo. The polesitter lost his fuel pump when he stomped the gas. SOMEHOW, everyone got around him, but it's a miracle.

[qposner]

Quinn,
I am the originator of the video - I sent it only to the FOUR people in that line (originally). They are left to right
Charlie Hearn, Ron Whitston, Ed Womer, Donnie Isley. Don't know who sent it to you.

From what I saw live, and what I've seen on MANY replays of the video, there is no "fault" here ... There are FOUR cars trying to squeeze into a 2.5 car space. Ed came out on the shortest (of the four) end of the stick, but got lucky and spun around into the correct direction and continued. You can run within an inch of another car with no trouble, but when that separation becomes negative, NOTHING can stop it. Sorry about your long tow, but it's just "a racing incident" - somewhat similar to the T12 incident 10 laps later. Too many people trying to get through the same space. Could it have been avoided ?? Sure - just convince ONE of those guys to let everyone else go.
Which one ??
Steve

PS. I thought Charlie Rogers was the only guy that couldn't drive away ... Guess you too ??
PPS. Anyone who hasn't should watch the start of the FF race from Bill Valet's video on Vimeo. The polesitter lost his fuel pump when he stomped the gas. SOMEHOW, everyone got around him, but it's a miracle.

Um, I did say it was a racing accident. Just curious. Wasn't looking to direct blame...

Yes, couldnt drive away. 2 bent rims, flat right front, bent tie rod and moved steering box.

[hardingfv32-1]

Yellow car at that point gives you either Hearn or Whitston. Maybe we can get one of them to confirm? If this is America, then someone HAS to be the blame.

Brian

[qposner]

Yellow car at that point gives you either Hearn or Whitston. Maybe we can get one of them to confirm? If this is America, then someone HAS to be the blame.

Brian

Ill admit I was pissed when it happened. I thought I was going to make it through when a car nailed my left front. But again, Im not looking for blame. Just curious. Christ.

[Ed Womer]

Steven is right about the order of cars you see in his video. Because I did file a protest against Ron because I was a little pissed off after the race, the stewards has a copy of the internet feed on a DVD and did show me that, and they decided that they would consider it a RACING incedent and I had to agree with them on it. So I withdrew my protest and did apoligize to Ron for dragging him down to the stewards about the incedent.

In the copy of the race feed the stewards were able to go frame by frame and it looks like Charlie went to his left to possibly move forward on the left of the track and didn't thus allowing Ron, myself and Donnie Isley who was coming up on my right along the pit wall to now be 4 wide. I guess Charlie want to move back in line and moved right causing Ron to move right as well as myself but with Donnie against the wall I had limited space to move. Ron then moved left a little and then back right again then I guess decided he didn't want there (who would) and slowed some and from my in car camera his right front was slightly inside my wheels and when my rear got to his front I started to go up. Needless to say it scared the crap out of me! Coming down facing 3/4 off the field was horrifying but I luckly, as Steven mentioned ended up spining off to the left into the grass and continuted.

When I was looking at the results I realized that five cars were listed as DNF without completing a lap. I did see in the stewards replay someone slowing to avoid me spining and getting hit from behind by two cars and one almost hit me from behind as I was driving away. I don't know if all five didn't finish because of this incident buy it is a shame that it happended but as the old saying it is water over the dam.

I heard from some drivers after the event that it was the worst driving they have ever seen at the runoffs and were upset about it. We definatly need to do better as a group at the runoffs so everyone gets to finish the race. There is no reason for overly agressive driving so that you can stay with the leaders. I suspect the reason Mike got away was everyone behind him fought for second right at the start.

Mike did a fantastic job and I am very happy for his great run, congrats to him!

Hopefully when the race shows up on the internet we will be able to copy it to a DVD and then everyone will be able to see what happened thorought the race with slow motin replay. It is past us but maybe we can learn from it so it doesn't happen again.

Ed

[qposner]

Steven is right about the order of cars you see in his video. Because I did file a protest against Ron because I was a little pissed off after the race, the stewards has a copy of the internet feed on a DVD and did show me that, and they decided that they would consider it a RACING incedent and I had to agree with them on it. So I withdrew my protest and did apoligize to Ron for dragging him down to the stewards about the incedent.

In the copy of the race feed the stewards were able to go frame by frame and it looks like Charlie went to his left to possibly move forward on the left of the track and didn't thus allowing Ron, myself and Donnie Isley who was coming up on my right along the pit wall to now be 4 wide. I guess Charlie want to move back in line and moved right causing Ron to move right as well as myself but with Donnie against the wall I had limited space to move. Ron then moved left a little and then back right again then I guess decided he didn't want there (who would) and slowed some and from my in car camera his right front was slightly inside my wheels and when my rear got to his front I started to go up. Needless to say it scared the crap out of me! Coming down facing 3/4 off the field was horrifying but I luckly, as Steven mentioned ended up spining off to the left into the grass and continuted.

When I was looking at the results I realized that five cars were listed as DNF without completing a lap. I did see in the stewards replay someone slowing to avoid me spining and getting hit from behind by two cars and one almost hit me from behind as I was driving away. I don't know if all five didn't finish because of this incident buy it is a shame that it happended but as the old saying it is water over the dam.

I heard from some drivers after the event that it was the worst driving they have ever seen at the runoffs and were upset about it. We definatly need to do better as a group at the runoffs so everyone gets to finish the race. There is no reason for overly agressive driving so that you can stay with the leaders. I suspect the reason Mike got away was everyone behind him fought for second right at the start.

Mike did a fantastic job and I am very happy for his great run, congrats to him!

Hopefully when the race shows up on the internet we will be able to copy it to a DVD and then everyone will be able to see what happened thorought the race with slow motin replay. It is past us but maybe we can learn from it so it doesn't happen again.

Ed

Nice recap, Ed. The thing that scared me the most was it looked, from my in-car vantage point, that you were sideways in the air. At that point, I thought things were going to be much worse than they were. Glad you made it out of there without making a mess of you car!

[brian]

Great recap Ed, and very valid input about the racing. I was forced to spectate in 5 and it seemed to me that there were several very impatient drivers that upset the lead group and really slowed them down. Not that it would have made a difference in Michaels performance but we could do a lot better. RA can be a very dangerous track and unless there's a bit more patience on the starts, we'll see a rerun of that start. Anyone remember Road Atlanta in 93? In 24 starts at the runoffs I've had 8 finish before the second turn; only one of which was due to my doing.

[cendiv37]

I heard from some drivers after the event that it was the worst driving they have ever seen at the runoffs and were upset about it. We definatly need to do better as a group at the runoffs so everyone gets to finish the race. There is no reason for overly agressive driving so that you can stay with the leaders. I suspect the reason Mike got away was everyone behind him fought for second right at the start.
Ed

I couldn't agree more Ed. One description I heard that fit was that it was like a "bar fight". And when you checked to see who had hit you over the back with a chair you found out it was your "friend". You can see how it escalated to some pretty aggressive, stupid stuff. I doubt there is one of us that can really look in the mirror and say "I didn't do anything wrong." We need to find a way to do better. Like I said over on ApexSpeed, there was simply no way to stay near the front without at least feigning blocks and dive bombing people in the corners. If you were in front, you were going to the back and since everybody HAD to get to every corner first, we never got through any corners fast enough to start to get some spread within the field. If you tried to stay in line, you simply got passed by more guys.

The problem is that this is essentially the nature of FV at RA. In smaller fields with a greater disparity in the speeds, it usually breaks up into a number of more reasonable size packs in just a couple of laps. This time it just got worse as the pack "snowballed", growing larger each lap. Once you get more than about 4-5 cars in a pack, you can kiss good lap times goodbye.

We need to figure something out to get some separation within the field at the start and THEN start racing. I don't know how we do it though... The problem starts even before turn one as you found out. The red mist descends early...

[FV80]

...We need to figure something out to get some separation within the field at the start and THEN start racing. I don't know how we do it though... The problem starts even before turn one as you found out. The red mist descends early...

How about inverting the field ?? THAT ought to separate some things out.

Alternatively, we could just sent each car out one at a time and take the fastest lap ... OH - we already have that - it's called Solo I (or TIME TRIALS, now I think).

Steve

[VORT94]

Steve, I was thinking all week that single car qualifying would be the only fair way at Road America. I guarantee you would have started the race better than where you did.

[cendiv37]

Qualifying was bad enough, but at least people were OCCASIONALLY willing to let you go when you had a run, though never more than once on any lap. The race was another story. It was every man for himself from the drop of the green.

I talked to Bob Lybarger about it after the race and he had some ideas. How palettable they would be to either the drivers or SCCA, I don't know.

[hardingfv32-1]

Single lap qualifying could be done with 3-4 cars staggered on track. One warmup lap, one qualifying lap, and one cool down.

Start of the race is a more difficult issue. Split start like the bikes do at Daytona?

I guess restricting passing BEFORE the start line is of limited benefit.

Brian

[Matt King]

Other than trying to beat into people's heads the fact that the race isn't won, but can be lost, in the first corner, and really pursuing and enforcing penalties for at-fault contact, there isn't anything you can do. It's a race. People want to win. And some people will do whatever it takes, no matter how risky or foolish. And that includes spending stupid amounts of money on intake manifolds.

[jpetillo]

Unfortunately, you will never stop drivers from doing their best to gain position on the first corner.

Is the problem the slow speed pace car allowing everyone to drag race and find a spot into the first turn? If so, how about using a faster-than-FV car as a pace car who can start the field off in nice neat rows at close to the FV top speed (at that portion of the track) before the green flag drops and then it can just peel off and pull in? That way the car positions can't change a lot by people getting on the gas early.

[FV80]

GCR definitions require all SCCA starts to be 'ROLLING" starts (as opposed to 'FLYING'). It *IS* quite an issue at some tracks, but the other part of the problem with a flying start is that half the field would still be coming out of Canada when the green flag flew ...
And the pace car does what the Chief Steward (in this case former FV pilot Jim Averett) or the OPERATING STEWARD (Unknown) tells him to do... generally. In our case, I did think the start was a bit slow .. but part of that might lie with the front row since it appeared to me that we slowed somewhat after the pace car left the track. Maybe the pace car slowed just BEFORE he left the track?? Maybe I was so far back I was still trying to catch up and finally got there about then ??

Steve (certified nationally licensed pace car driver <G>)

[cendiv37]

My opinion is that the "problem" is simply the combined nature of FV (draft being so important on long fast tracks) and RA (three long, fast and wide straights).

It might actually be better to start at a MUCH lower speed so the draft doesn't come into play so much well before reaching 1. How about a standing start from right in front of the pits? Or put the start line at about pit out so that there is less time and distance for the back of the field to collapse on the front. Or even start single file... All of these options or even more radical ones would be a significant departure from "standard" road racing practice. All will likely not be possible.

Here's a picture sequence from the split start at the June Sprints 2005. It is pretty interesting.
http://gordon.smugmug.com/2005-Events-S ... 9388_F5fCG We all made it through 1 that year.

At the Runoffs this year the front of the field actually made it through 1 OK, possibly in part due the problems occurring behind us (video linked above). Mike got through relatively cleanly and thus got to 3 uncontested. I don't remember if there was any side by side behind him into 3, but if there was, that explains why Mike got to 5 uncontested. Not getting through 3 fast is a guarantee you will be slow and likely passed by MANY cars on your way to 5.

In a "normal" race at RA you can bide your time a bit in the draft, waiting for the right opportunity to move past people. This race was different. If you hesitated to move into any hole as soon as it opened up, someone else went there, NOW. So almost from the start, there was a sense of urgency, almost desperation NOT to lose position.

For example, in a "normal" race, heading from the kink to 12 if I'm sitting 5th or 6th in a train and the front 4 are two or three abreast, I'll typically feather it and let them line up under braking and get through there cleanly. I'm not going to be able to get past them all, and I may be able to pass three of them on the front straight anyway. So what's the point of going three wide into 12? In this race, if you feathered it and didn't stick your nose into a "hole" at least filling all the available space, someone behind you would run up next to you and stay there all the way to the apex of 12. Definitely not the way to go fast, and while spectacular, just an accident waiting to happen.

The thing is, I don't blame anyone for this. Like I said, I think it's the combined nature of the track and the class. The only way I can see to minimize this "problem" would be to somehow get the field strung out single file and THEN go racing. Obviously this would take away the opportunity to immediately improve your position on the start. However, it would lead to a cleaner, safer, faster race and the best guys would still be at the front by the end (less luck, more skill determining the outcome?).

[hardingfv32-1]

Just trying to understand the mentality of the competitors.... After the first lap or two did you think you were racing for anything but 2nd place? Is 2nd that important? Did you honestly think this was NOT going to end ugly? Were drivers being rude, tempers flaring?

Brian

[CitationFV21]

After the first lap or two did you think you were racing for anything but 2nd place? Is 2nd that important?

2nd (or 3rd) can become 1st - ask Scott Rubenzer....

ChrisZ

[Matt King]

Just trying to understand the mentality of the competitors.... After the first lap or two did you think you were racing for anything but 2nd place? Is 2nd that important?

There's this thing some people do called "racing." Briefly, it's trying to finish ahead of the guy in front of or behind you.

[fvkartguy]

Didn't you guys see the interview with Hearn afterward?
"If you aint first you're last"

[jpetillo]

I think the (slow) Rolling starts are the problem. A Flying start could work if all the cars were on the straight when the flag dropped - move the start flag location. This seems to work for Indy cars - rarely a bunch up. But, you need a long enough straight.

Or, limit the cars to two cars wide with temporary lines on the track and if you drop a wheel over the line then you get black flagged.

What's needed is something that doesn't count on the drivers to have to hold back from doing whatever they would do anytime else in the race. If there's a hole or an opportunity, a driver can't be expected on their own not to go for it.

Standing starts would also be better than a rolling start, but cars do get rear-ended (when they stall or whatever) and there will be more passing because of the inequities of folks being able to launch fast. We're not ready for that, I think. Bikes do that but there are accidents and bikes are much thinner and can slice through more easily. It only helps slightly the amount of vehicles into the first turn at once.