Tires?

[remmers]

those losses could always be cut by selling off your old wheels to VW guys...

[Doug Carter]

Having just bought a FV for the 2010 season, I speak only for myself when I say that the thought of new wheels and street treaded tires in what already is the slowest open wheeled class out there has ZERO appeal to me, and I'm sure many others. It's bad enough to be lumped in with faster F5s, but remove all of the FVs cornering ability with street tires sounds like a sure way for me to lose interest in this class really fast.

If you want to lower the yearly tire bill, fine. Test hard spec tires at the Regional level, cool. Come up with a standard control slick for all FVs in the SCCA, and that's alright by me, too. I think I'd draw the line at taking a car that is already low on the sex appeal scale and adding street tires on different wheels.

This class is NOT that expensive to run, and while I would love to have tires that last longer or are cheaper, they are still a LOT cheaper than FF and FC tires, and they last longer than both. A $1200 manifold doesn't sound so bad when you think that the aluminum head for FF and FC in the last few seasons are $2500 and $3400, respectively. And realistically, I don't see myself upgrading from a solid Kohanski manifold to Brian's Monster until I'm looking for that last bit of snot when I'm ready to make a run to get to the RunOffs. Do you REALLY NEED that last .15 a second a lap if it's going to cost you $1200?

I don't. Not yet, anyway.

[CitationFV21]

Will someone please read this:

http://pages.cthome.net/czracing/FVspectire.htm

and either comment or ask questions?

I have done all this before - everyone is trying to reinvent the wheel (pun intended )

These questions/statements are not valid:

1. FV is the slowest open wheel class. - Always been and will always be - we could go back to Goodyear Bluestreaks and still be faster than 20 years ago - it was fun then, would be fun now.
2. Current tire is good enough. - A few years ago I ran on a Saturday at NHMS on 8 cycle tires - could barely finish 6th. On Sunday put new tires on and ran away with race - did my driving improve that much overnight - after 28 years of racing?
3. Tire management is part of racing. - go read the FV rules purpose of the class and show me where it says that. Do you have to manage your shocks or your pistons. Come to think of it, I have not flipped my pistons lately or counted the number of heat cycles on my shocks...
4. Tire wars improve racing. - They make everyone go faster and spend more money - they NEVER improve racing.
5. Racing costs money, get used to it. - We make the rules - why make rules that make me waste money?

From Speedsport "Remember, in racing, someone will always have an advantage over you in some area, whether it's car prep, HP, experience, ect. Your goal is to find your own advantages, in whatever way you can." Again, I say this is against the spirit of the FV rules. "emphasizes driver ability rather than technological development of the car." The next sentence says "The goal of these rules is to maintain both the competitiveness and cost effectiveness of the class."

That is codified in our rules. If you have to buy tires every other week to be competitive then it is not cost effective. It is AND, not OR. That sentence should be read 100 times before any rules change is voted on.

ChrisZ

[remmers]

Having just bought a FV for the 2010 season, I speak only for myself when I say that the thought of new wheels and street treaded tires in what already is the slowest open wheeled class out there has ZERO appeal to me, and I'm sure many others. It's bad enough to be lumped in with faster F5s, but remove all of the FVs cornering ability with street tires sounds like a sure way for me to lose interest in this class really fast.

If you want to lower the yearly tire bill, fine. Test hard spec tires at the Regional level, cool. Come up with a standard control slick for all FVs in the SCCA, and that's alright by me, too. I think I'd draw the line at taking a car that is already low on the sex appeal scale and adding street tires on different wheels

On the bright side, the F500's would no longer be holding us up in the corners, they'd sail away out of our hair. FV has never been and never will be about raw speed. If you want that, go buy an Atlantic. FV has always been about good close racing on a budget. The goal of talking about a spec tire is to make the fields we already have more resistant to economic climate, and second to attract new, young members who could be racing for a long long time. IDK about you, but there's not a whole lot of young guys out of college who like the fact that you have to spend $1-2k on tires a year that could otherwise be spent on more entry fees or improving other aspects of the car. They do however like getting to race wheel to wheel, as I've seen my share of groups of these college age people going indoor Karting. They don't care they're only going 45MPH, they enjoy hanging the carts out there and going wheel to wheel with their friends.

[Doug Carter]

FV has never been and never will be about raw speed. If you want that, go buy an Atlantic.

I spent enough time in the SCCA, and have run a FC to know where the speed is at. I wouldn't have bought a race car with 60hp if I thought the class was about speed. That's not what I'm saying at all.

But making the cars SLOWER is definitely not a good way to attract new blood to the class.

Instead of re-inventing the wheel, so to speak, why don't options that are already available with limited expense get considered first, before trying to make every Vee in the country change to Canadian specs. American Racers, harderer Hoosiers or Goodyears come to mind as a first option.

I would personally be looking to other sanctioning bodies to race if the spec tire was a treaded Kuhmo on different wheels.

[Dave]

Congratulation Doug that is a great car you purchased.

Dave

[Doug Carter]

Thanks Dave, it's a beautiful car. Still can't believe that it was still available. One of the single cleanest used race cars I have ever seen. I can't wait for spring to get back to the track to get my comp license back up to speed.

[CitationFV21]

But making the cars SLOWER is definitely not a good way to attract new blood to the class.

The new Road & Track has an article on how fast is too fast. Interesting stuff.

Right now FV is over tired for the power. When it started it was a little more balanced. Tire development outstripped engine development.

Formula Ford is over tired also, BTW - go to Youtube and watch Mike Rand (red car) on treaded Dunlops http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mz_RegNic0

I believe FF in England still run treaded tires and so do the Irish FV - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhNnMXMNNZo (lots of other videos - love the announcer!) (That looked like a fun race - not!) I do believe they run 1300 - about 75 hp?

Remember - that is were F1 drivers start......

FST are also over tired - you have to look at the friction circle - it has to be balanced between cornering and braking - we will never have enough acceleration, but lower the cornering and the right pedal starts to mean something.

BTW - my personal feeling is that the VROC is the best choice - if only Hoosier would make them and people would buy them.....

ChrisZ

PS Doug - what car did you buy? Is the Swift gone?

[Doug Carter]

BTW - my personal feeling is that the VROC is the best choice - if only Hoosier would make them and people would buy them...

I tend to agree, the R60 or their R70 compound would be a nice start. Though I wonder how different the existing R55s are from the R60. Having spoken to Bruce Foss about a FV spec tire, though, he seems to be of the belief that control hard tires will not offer FV racers what they are seeking, and the existing tires out there have great longevity and consistent performance over an extended period of time. I believe they (Hoosier) would make any tire in any compound as long as there was a demand for them, though. Mr. Foss said that even a small run of test tires would be an easy endeavor if it was something that we wanted to test as a class. Maybe even on a regional level as a gentleman's agreement.

"Most of those who are interested in a long-lasting, no fall-off, inexpensive spec tire for FV are usually somewhat out of touch with the reality of acceptable race tire performance on FV's."

PS Doug - what car did you buy? Is the Swift gone?

Sold the DB1 finally a few weeks ago, and picked up Bernie Schatz's Citation FV02. Immaculate car, and should be a nice car for next season.




doug

[CitationFV21]

Sold the DB1 finally a few weeks ago, and picked up Bernie Schatz's Citation FV02. Immaculate car, and should be a nice car for next season.
doug

I have a Citation also - actually the sister car to Scott Rubenzer's Runoffs winner - bought it from Butch/DRE ....18 years ago??? (Butch, can it be?)

Probably the most FF like of the Vees. Good luck with it.

ChrisZ

[CitationFV21]

Bruce Foss:

"Most of those who are interested in a long-lasting, no fall-off, inexpensive spec tire for FV are usually somewhat out of touch with the reality of acceptable race tire performance on FV's."

doug

Okay, I'll bite - Is there any National Racer out there who would race on a tire with more than 4 heat cycles on it? If you were going for the win and not just driving around????

ChrisZ

[Doug Carter]

The thing is, the FE guys do so on a regular basis with excellent results. Maybe not on the RunOffs weekends, but on every other National weekend they most certainly do. So do the FST guys, and many of the top CFs in the country are running R60s on MANY heat cycles, and competing for wins with regularity.

My impression of Mr. Foss' response was that he was down this path many times with various people and groups, and it never seems to materialize. He sounded like he was tired of hearing about it because no one can ever agree on the same thing, and therefore, nothing happens—leaving his time and effort for naught.



I'm in favor of a less expensive, longer lasting slick racing tire, but I can see why some would not be excited about the idea. I'm also beginning to think that it's a perfect idea for Regionals and not the National level—though I have thoughts about the lack of need for two different "levels" of club racing in the first place. That's another thread altogether...

[FV80]

Okay, I'll bite - Is there any National Racer out there who would race on a tire with more than 4 heat cycles on it? If you were going for the win and not just driving around????

ChrisZ

I can't speak for anyone else, but I do NOT track heat cycles on my tires. I simply LOOK at the tire (I don't even use a tread depth indicator) and compare tire for tire front and then tire for tire rear. I do this at the beginning of the weekend and make a decision as to whether I will probably have to get a new set. Whether I do or not often depends on just how much competition there is and what track I'm at (some are considerably more abusive to tires than others, and sometimes the tires mean more than at other tracks). I have enough rims to mount 3 sets of tires (including the ones on the car). I 'pre-sort' any tires before I load the trailer - mount/dismount appropriately, make some guesses and load the trailer. After i get to the track, I resort tires based on how much rubber is left and put them on the car as 'serviceable but worst' always goes to any practice sessions (or the 'probably least fast' [time of day/weather] qualifier. Best always stays off the car till the race (unless I buy NEW), and whatever's left get the qualifying sessions. At the end of the weekend, I go back to the shop and do the same with whatever's in the trailer and whatever's left at home in plans for the next race.

As to whether I would race on tires with more than 4 heat cycles, I would say unequivocally YES - if I was confident that there was enough rubber left on the tire to complete the race without radical falloff. In my experience with the Goodyears, I have seen no appreciable falloff until the rubber gets down near the bottom of the wear indicators across about 50% of the tire (as long as I haven't corded them anywhere). I have qualified and won races MANY times with tires that "probably" have 5 or 6 (or more) heat cycles, but I can't be sure. I DO tend to wear the rubber off rather quickly compared to some others. I have seen MANY people discard tires that (according to the rubber left) I would not hesitate to run in a race (if they had been mine from new - I have no idea WHY they are being discarded). I ran all three qualifiers at the Runoffs on the same set of tires (after scrubbing in on test day [i.e. 3rd qual = 4th heat cycle]). Although I ended up a good bit further from the front than I hoped, it was not the fault of the tires - they seemed just as good on the last day as the first.
Steve

[CitationFV21]

As to whether I would race on tires with more than 4 heat cycles, I would say unequivocally YES - if I was confident that there was enough rubber left on the tire to complete the race without radical falloff.

Steve, There is the point. Here in the NE at Regionals a practice or qualifying session could be 10 - 15 minutes, races usually 20 minutes. So 4 heat cycles to you are different than 4 to me. I throw away tires with 15 heat cycles on them that are only 1/2 worn out! But they are hard as rocks.

BTW - remember you are not supposed to store tires when it is freezing out? The proposed date for the Double National NHMS is April 10&11, 2010......Normal High 55 - normal low 30 - record low around 15 degrees.......

ChrisZ

[Speedsport]

First off - Doug, you purchased an excellent car. I think I speak for everyone here in the Cendiv when I say welcome to FV and we are happy to have another one on the track.

I agree 100% with what Doug said about street tires. NO WAY can I possibly support the idea of a street tire on our cars. We are already on a fine line of being considered a real race car, and people want to put street tires on them? Talk about knocking the appeal factor down a few clicks. No thanks.



ChrisZ - You said:

From Speedsport "Remember, in racing, someone will always have an advantage over you in some area, whether it's car prep, HP, experience, ect. Your goal is to find your own advantages, in whatever way you can." Again, I say this is against the spirit of the FV rules.

Seriously?! It's illegal to have an advantage over your competitor? If that where true we would all be racing Autodynamics chassis. Can you name one race car driver who isn't trying to find an advantage???

Tire management is part of racing. - go read the FV rules purpose of the class and show me where it says that

Of course tire management is part of racing. It's not in the rule book for the same reason the rule book doesn't say the tires have to be round. It's common sense. How can you possibly race anything with tires and not have to manage them? Instead of looking at this as a negative, you need to be looking at this as a way to gain an advatage. Manage the tires you have better then the next guy, and there you go - an advantage that doesn't cost money.

Racing costs money, get used to it. - We make the rules - why make rules that make me waste money?

Yes, racing does cost money and one has to get used to it. FV rules have never been created to waste money. After all these years FV's have remained a very cheap way to go racing. Can you honestly look around at other national classes and tell me we haven't done an excellent job at controlling costs???? When are people happy and the complaining stop? When someone can win the runoffs on a $500 a season budget?

Okay, I'll bite - Is there any National Racer out there who would race on a tire with more than 4 heat cycles on it? If you were going for the win and not just driving around????

Absolutely! Like Steve, I rotate tires through a sequence between race tires, qualifying tires, offical practice tires, and testing tires. Most of my decisions are based on how much rubber is left on the tire, not heat cycles. Although I do keep very accurate records of each session the tire has been run to aid in the decision. I certainly have started a national on tires with more then 4 heat cycles on them, and qualifyed with tires having as many as 6-8. I don't have my records here now to check, but I'm pretty sure I set my fastest qualifying lap at the runoffs this year on tires already on their 3rd heat cycle. The tire manufactures have done an excellent job at providing us with long lasting tires. They are light years ahead of a few years ago. This notion that one needs new tires for every race is a carry over from the old days.

[CitationFV21]

ChrisZ - You said:

From Speedsport "Remember, in racing, someone will always have an advantage over you in some area, whether it's car prep, HP, experience, ect. Your goal is to find your own advantages, in whatever way you can." Again, I say this is against the spirit of the FV rules.

Seriously?! It's illegal to have an advantage over your competitor? If that where true we would all be racing Autodynamics chassis. Can you name one race car driver who isn't trying to find an advantage???

In all other formula classes, the rules state that they are a restricted class. Only in FV does the rule state "emphasizes driver ability rather than technological development". So yea, it may not be illegal, but it is against the spirit of the class. This was put in there for a reason and if people feel that FV should be more like Formula Ford then recommend it be taken out, don't dance around it. How can driver ability shine if someone can buy an advantage - remember, we are only talking tires here but I would argue that anything that goes beyond the rules is subject to review. That went for the semi-enclosed razor car (now Caracal D), the first Lazer (frontal area), the first beltless car (RIP Harvey) and probably the first mono-shock zero-roll.

As to qualifying on tires that have 3 heat cycles on them, here is a quote from Mike Palermo from about 10 years ago:

"The VROC tire actually surpassed all expectations. I ran the original set for 37 sessions, at which point they became hard to drive. I took them home and applied many (read: MANY) coats of the Formula Vee tire treatment. The next time they were used, my crew man (and one of the original testers) set his fastest lap ever, and thought I had sent him out on a new set! We finally saw cords on the 41st. session. The sorry part of the story is that they never caught on outside of Colorado. My guess is that if we had this forum at that time, it may have been different. When I learned that Hoosier was dropping the tire from production, I bought up the lot of them. Our group ran on them last year, leaving just 10 sets for this year. The payout for the 97 season was $2075. and most everyone got through the season on one set.

CONCLUSION: I think that we had exactly what FV needed and at least temporarily let the Goose that laid the Golden Egg die. I applaud Bruce Foss for his courage to go with a program that was in a way cutting his own throat, and take the long view. In that same period we have seen our FV group here grow from a handful to over 30 drivers. And If you haven't noticed, Co drivers have also progressed from Runoffs also-runs to the dominating force...perhaps a spin-off benefit of learning to drive on something other than high$ sin-hiding, gummies."

Today, we only see growth or stability in areas with large population densities and good tech support (here on the East Coast that is Dave and Steve) or in areas that have adopted strict tire rules (i.e Canada). Having driven on street tires, I don't have the aversion others have, but looking at all the options, the VROC or a similar type tire would be ideal. For 2010 we should watch FF. If they end up with a spec tire, like many other classes around the world, then the path would be clear.

ChrisZ

[CitationFV21]

BTW - Here are the Irish FV rules:

http://www.formulavee.ie/downloads/form ... gs2009.pdf

Of course they benefit from a smaller geographical area - they have spec wheels, tires and cam! Tires are treaded.

British FF rules:

http://www.britishformulaford.co.uk/dow ... _final.pdf

They have a spec tire and also crash test the steering wheel and column! Tires are slicks with optional rains.

ChrisZ

PS: just to prove I have run on street tires - http://pages.cthome.net/czracing/FVwstreet.jpg

[Ed Womer]

I do keep track of heat cycles but like both Mike and Stevan I do Manage tires by using older tires for pratice newer ones for qualifying and the newest or new for races. With Goodyear you should always scrub them in so they last longer. Like Stevan I used the same set at the runoffs for all of the qualifying and a second for the race. At Summit for the 40th aneversary race which was a regional with some runoff caliber drivers Steve Oseth, Jeremy Griener, Johnathen Weischeit, myself and some very fast regional guys like Eric Oseth, Daniel Oseth, Glen Tupper Mike Fultz and others I used the runoffs qualifyer tires for qualifying and the race and switched to the runoffs race tires for the 25 lap race. I will use these tires for my first national race next year.

I agree with Mikes comments about using your track time to improve your driving and don't spend the money to by your way to the front because you will still not be able to win because you will always be stuck following due to your ability and race craft. These are things that take time and can't be bought at no cost. I raced nationals for I don't remeber how long before I finally won a race and it wasn't my driving ability that was holding me back. I did make improvements over time that finally got me to the point that I wasn't just hanging on and actually was able to race for the lead instead of just follow along.

I think the new tire that Goodyear is producing is as good as the Hoosier and will make it easier for us to race as well as anyone who is on Goodyear tires.

Ed

[pillowmeto]

This year the winner of MARRS (Washington D.C. area) had one of the smallest tire budgets. He began the season with the tires that he ran most of previous season on! He switched to his second set (which he received for free, used ,the year previous) about 2/3 of the way through the season. He may have used a third set in the final 40th anniversary race.

He uses a controversial (as to the effectiveness) technique of coating the tires with Formula V tire treatment.

He clearly had one of the lowest tire budgets of anyone, and won against many fast drivers in fast cars in one of the most competitive regions. He did not have a new style manifold like most of the front of the field. I think our average car count was over 16 this year (it was 16 last year).

Clearly, purchasing new tires regularly is not required for upper level regional competition.

Congratulations Hannum, #40

P.S. We have a .55 mile straight with a high speed (95 mph) corner entering the straight.

[P-2 Mark]

That's fine and congrats to him for his series championship, but you can't get away
with that if you're running National races. The competition is using new tires
too often to make that practical in most regions.

Mark

[remmers]

I agree that perhaps the Khumo may not be the best solution. The point I was trying to make is that, even if we had to buy new wheels, a harder spec compound will pay for itself in short order. Especially if it lasts 30+ heat cycles as the Khumo are claimed to. I think I heard somewhere up there the V-ROC tires lasted 40+? even better, perhaps get the V-ROC compound in a larger width tire to lessen the drop in cornering ability and even perhaps add more life to the tire.

[Bob Stack]

WHAT IS . .

Formula V tire treatment..

??????

[remmers]

it's a topical fluid that supposedly softens up old hard tires. my father stopped using it about the time he started running nationals tho. so idk if he just got lazy or if he found it didn't work.

[jpetillo]

This year the winner of MARRS (Washington D.C. area) had one of the smallest tire budgets. He began the season with the tires that he ran most of previous season on! He switched to his second set (which he received for free, used ,the year previous) about 2/3 of the way through the season. He may have used a third set in the final 40th anniversary race.

I believe this is the best indication of why folks aren't jumping on the bandwagon about switching to a cheaper tire that lasts a whole season. I think we may find that most regional competitors run competitively on one new set a year already - some more and some less. John

[remmers]

who ever said that we were limiting the tire's lifespan to 1 season? if he can get a whole season out of one set of the current tire, how many seasons do you think he could go on a spec tire using the same methods?