FORMULAVEE.ORG

you speak of having to tune your car for a tire in the event it doesn't work so well on your car as other's. So what happens if, say, Avon comes to the Runoffs and blows everyone out of the water and everyone switches over. But some cars don't like the new tire. Do you think for one moment that someone would want to stick with a slower tire over biting the bullet and doing a test day or two to get their car to work with those new tires?
It goes both ways, but in the case of a harder spec tire, you're at least keeping people from making that initial investment of test and tune every time a new faster [more expensive] tire comes out. It's bad enough everyone had to pay for a blown out manifold just to level the playing field again, without having to do that for every last little piece of the car, especially items that won't even last you a whole season.

Chassis tuning is an ongoing program that is needed regardless of what is happening with the tires. Differernt tracks, weather and other track conditions will require adjustments. It's part of a successful program. Just like ongoing improvements in other areas. Since the manifolds have come up a couple of times, it would be interesting to know how many people ran out and bought new manifolds. I know I didn't and I don't think a hundred other folks did either. (1000x100= 100K). I would guess it's just more unconfirmed urban legend.

My findings are that the new manifolds did not improve lap times significantly only about .5 to 1 sec./lap improvement on most tracks, but what they did do was make people that much harder to pass at the end of a long straight. Not having one relegates even the fastest drivers to racing for the caboose once the green flag drops. Race one national where everyone else is running a manifold and you'll go out and buy one the instant you get home because you won't be able to even compete, let alone win, without one. At least at the national level. Regionals are still up in the air, but I do know that at least a handful of regional drivers up in the Northeast have them and they're the ones winning the races for the most part.

1 sec a lap, were you expecting keep up with the 500s?

Brian is completely right. I have sold about 10 manifolds @ $1200. The performance of my manifolds will not be fully apparent until you get to Road America. The competitors in the NE live race in a somewhat cloistered area. If you have been spending money to get updates from Steve Pastore you are going to be more upset after the Runoffs. Trying to get by on the cheap is only going to cost more in the end. While Steve is doing a wonderful job at a reasonable price with his update, I have a money back guaranty that says it is NOT good enough.

Brian
Monster Manies
310 455-2747

Boy, here we go again. I have the same manifolds since the early 90's. So far they've won the Sprints and many nationals against the new manifolds. I can't wait for RA. Let's face it, at my age, I really can drive the straights.

My gut feeling is that most folks can gain a lot more for their money by having the tranny looked at and regularly cleaning of the heads. By regular I mean every 3 weekends.

You have lost to a Monster Manie more times than you have won this season. McLaren and Ferrari won championships last year and now look where they are. Progress always marches on even if you wish otherwise. Last years results don't win this years races.

With thirty years of FV experience your gut feelings are usually correct. You could be right about the transmissions. Does anyone dyno the transmissions?

Brian

I sat on this for a few days since you should never write anything in anger - but I still stand by it. - cmz

hardingfv32-1 wrote: Brian is completely right. I have sold about 10 manifolds @ $1200. The performance of my manifolds will not be fully apparent until you get to Road America. The competitors in the NE live race in a somewhat cloistered area. If you have been spending money to get updates from Steve Pastore you are going to be more upset after the Runoffs. Trying to get by on the cheap is only going to cost more in the end. While Steve is doing a wonderful job at a reasonable price with his update, I have a money back guaranty that says it is NOT good enough.

Brian
Monster Manies
310 455-2747

Brian,

I don't know you personally, so I am just going to try to react to your post...

I hope I speak for many when I say - ARE YOU CRAZY?

You just implied that if you don't have one of your manifolds, then you should not even show up! You imply that you can buy yourself a win at the RunOffs or at least to be competitive.

If anyone thought that was half true, what would happen if 30 guys said *&^%$# this and did not show up? That would kill FV and I would be beating on the Comp Board's door demanding a Enterprise Spec manifold or a sealed engine (or start looking at FF (Formula Fit)).

Now if this is just marketing and salesmanship fine, but leave out the personal attacks. FV drivers have been in this for a long time and we have a lot of respect for guys who have helped us even just keep racing.

The way that was written was not just an insult to Steve but to his customers and you owe everyone an apology.

Chris Zarzycki

brian wrote: My gut feeling is that most folks can gain a lot more for their money by having the tranny looked at and regularly cleaning of the heads. By regular I mean every 3 weekends.

There is absolutely no doubt that the Monster Manis provide more HP. (significantly) Based upon actual flow through the induction system there is more HP available from carb and manifold changes than anything else. The difference in HP between a good set of heads and the best, results in much less HP difference than the difference in comparable intakes and carbs. This is not even arguable. I can show you dozens on dyno (and flow tests) that verify this.

BTW A $1200 manifold is far cheaper than a refresh on heads every three races. (Also the change in shrouding, sealing,flow, etc on a set of heads after 3 weekends is VERY minimal. Actually assuming sealing seats and a slight amount of carbon build up you probably have MORE HP.) The only exception to this might be on illegal valve angles (45/46, etc) or an engine with lots of tuning problems.)

It is a shame that the rules were never clarified or strict enough to prevent expensive manifolds. (Just like heads, carbs, and most anything else.) But no manufacturer can be blamed for building products that are better and within the rules. Brian did what ANY intelligent person would have done if they had thought of it and had the skills. BTW, There were people paying almost the same amount 5 and 10 years ago for manifolds that were the hotest thing at that time.

CitationFV21 wrote:II don't know you personally, so I am just going to try to react to your post...
I hope I speak for many when I say - ARE YOU CRAZY?
Now if this is just marketing and salesmanship fine, but leave out the personal attacks. FV drivers have been in this for a long time and we have a lot of respect for guys who have helped us even just keep racing.
The way that was written was not just an insult to Steve but to his customers and you owe everyone an apology.

Oh please! You have WAY overacted. He (Brian) has a product and has tested it and is proud of it. He did not insult Steve in any way. Let me know that next time you hear Ford say that Chevy's are just as good. He feels his product is better. Just like EVERY producer. Brian even complemented Steve's price/performance. He certainly doesn't owe anyone an apology.

SR Racing]

It is a shame that the rules were never clarified or strict enough to prevent expensive manifolds.

The only thing that's a shame is that the moderators of this board let this BS continue.

Brian did what ANY intelligent person would have done if they had thought of it and had the skills.

Because one person decides to blatantly cheat does not make them intelligent.

Please somebody stop this nonsense...and stop vendors from posting there goods in the forum. There is a paid advertisement at the top of the page. Do it there.


-Andy Pastore

It is quite clear from the total lack of inquiries from the NE and volume of Steve Pastore's manifold update business that no one believes me. It is completely understandable. Just seems odd to dismiss a possible improvement without any investigation. While I will take the blame for all the current manifold update activity, I don't want to be blamed when some competitors find their purchases are not up to the task. Just a friendly warning. I have a complete understanding of your loyalties towards Steve. I did not kick this lying cat.

RA is all about power and/or the conservation of power. HP is coming to play at these Runoffs.

Brian

I repeat: I did not kick this lying cat (bring the subject up in this thread).

How is it that Steve Pastore can do a similar style manifold and I assume be perfectly legal?

Precisely what kind of sales or product language should I avoid?

There is nothing mean spirited about this thread. I honestly feel I make a better manifold but understand why some don't.

Brian

AJP wrote: Because one person decides to blatantly cheat does not make them intelligent.

Andy, I agree, if this were cheating. But I am under the impression that the manifolds were deemed legal?

Please somebody stop this nonsense...and stop vendors from posting there goods in the forum. There is a paid advertisement at the top of the page. Do it there.

IMO, The discussions have been very valuable to the FV community. Yes, I do agree that advertising in the forum should be limited per the rules. (Paid Vendors are permitted to offer items in the forum. As a matter of fact there are posts here most everyday re: pricing and product info. ) Certainly the discussions should be tempered and monitored by the moderatators. Again, IMO no rules or forum intents have been violated.

I would argue that the manifold rules were very gray and that the exploitation of loop holes in them was borderline "cheating" under the clause in the rules that says "if it doesn't say you can, you can't." Unfortunately, the powers that be chose to refine and clarify the rules in such a way that those imaginive interepretations were allowed to stand and as such advanced the state of manifold preparation.

The rules did not previously say you could ball size the tubes either, but everyone did. What's the difference?

Probably very little, but two wrongs don't make a right!

Manifolds like anything else have variations. If you have (2) one is better than the other. Having sold 160+ manifolds over the last five years, some were better than others. To date I have tested (4) of Brain’s manifolds. Certainly some were better than others, but none have been as good as VSR’s best.
Brian seems to think that no one can produce a manifold as good as his. This is clearly not true. Steve is a skilled craftsman and whatever STRETCH of the rules Brian comes up with, I believe Steve will just do it better for a fraction of the cost.

Dave Carr
Autowerks Engines

I KNOW I make the best manifolds, there is no thinking about it. I and others have tested Steve's latest work and my manifolds are always better. I will admit Steve has made improvements and that I might not be able to meet my 1 HP better guaranty in all cases. Since very few pay before testing, there is nothing to be lost on anyones part. You are not happy, just return the manifold. IF you happen to be allocated one of Steve's best then it would probably not be cost effective to purchase one of my manifolds. BUT all of my manifolds are at a MINIMUM equal to Steve's best.

How about finding a neutral tester to get to get a true reading on who's manifold is best. A manifold shootout with Pastore, Harding, with Kochanski and Chuck if they have anything new to offer.

Brian Harding
Monster Manies

Just to clarify my post.

It may look to be about manifolds but it could just as easily be about tires, carbs or rocket fuel.

The fact that you would have to buy a specific component and if you did not have it, then you would not be competitive. That is against the spirit of the rules.

That a particular supplier and a group of drivers was called out in a public forum - that to me was bad taste - no matter who it was.

This is not F1 or NASCAR - unbridled technological advances don't belong, nor trash talking.

If you want to rehash the manifold wars, take it back to the tech section. If you want to discuss how much development should be allowed in this class, the committee section is fine.

If you want to bad mouth any supplier or group - take it outside.

ChrisZ

The opinions of author may not be representitive of the moderators or advertizers of this board..........

PS to Clarification.

What is done is done - it is in the record book.

Lets move forward - learn from the past, not live in it.

We are going to Road America! Toto - we're not in Kansas anymore....

ChrisZ

Without causing a new round of rebuttals (which I am sure will happen), I want to voice my opinion and distaste for the content of this thread. It seems depending on your encampment the lines have been drawn and somehow Steve Pastore's abilities and craftsmanship have been drawn into this. May I remind everyone that Steve is a FRIEND and committed businessman of the FV community. He has also unselfishly helped me and others like me more times than I can remember. His quality of work as Dave Carr points out is exceptional and like the other suppliers that support this site are vital to success and continuation of FV racing. If there is a moderator of this board, perhaps this thread should be closed or deleted as it doesn't seem to reflect positively on the FV community.
Jim Regan
(A 30 year FV driver)

Well, I just got back from a week of real, out of touch with the world vacation. It was really nice.

What a nasty little surprise I find here.

Good to see some real discussion of some important issues.

Simply UNFORGIVABLE to see it devolve into personal attacks and blatant hyping of one's wares.
Please, lets' keep the ads in the ads, the discussion in the discussions and all without the personal attacks.

Please accept my sincere apologies. Being 3000 miles away, I had no idea how much the competitors of the NE worship Dave and Steve. Kind of like a religion where you cannot mention the name of their god without being stoned. I won't let it happen again.

Brian

Dave makes a very good point. There will always be variables in performance with stock and modified parts. That's why some of the rules were opened to allow for prep of carbs, manifolds etc. "Back in the day" if you didn't have a VW parts guy on the team to go through all the bins and find the best parts, you'd be down on power. The rules were written to attempt to even the playing field. As usual the "enexpected consequence" of the liberalization has caused problems. Comparing parts and their performance differences is a difficult process. If you are comparing a "new and improved" part to a mediocre standard, your results can be misleading. I'm blessed with two very good old manifolds from two different vendors that have held their own on every measurement. I have flowed and dyno'd dozens of manifolds and the results can be misleading. The flow bench and dyno are great tools but any professional engine builder will tell you, the track is the true measurement. I'll stand on my record because everything else is opinion. As the great saying goes,"opinions are like assholes: just because everyone has one doesn't mean they have to share them."

I got run over by a SRF this weekend at MIller MS park and after a late night repairing the car, I ran .6 of a second under the track record with a bent frame and won the race. Didn't have time to check all the manifolds. Good luck everyone, if I can get the car right, we'll see you at RA.

Brian, congrats on winning the race and sorry to see 3 FV's wrecked by SRF's - that is why I liked the "big" split start last year on the full course.
Just to be clear on times for the west course lap record (in the race) is 1:42.962 vs your best of 1:43.337 = 0.375. Qualifying times from the same day as lap record in 5/2006 was 1:42.126 vs your best of 1:42.532 = 0.406 in 2009. This was 3 years ago and again without a "new spec" manifold. Call or email me on damages to Dennis,Charlie and your cars and how it happened. Nuby