Does FV NEED TO BE SAVED ?

[FVartist]

There seems to be another sky is falling senario on the Formula Vee class. It seems for over 20 years now the end was near. The reasons are basically the same. It seems again if something isn't done soon FV will no longer exist. This is an estabilshed class for 46 years.

Jim is advocating for Fst. He has given up on the thought of Fst as a stand alone class and suggests FV convert to Fst to save itself. I was wondering if it might be the other way? Fst needs FV to stay viable.

I'm posting here since for some reason I was not able to post on the other. I read his first post and ignored his opening statement. I don't need someone to tell me If I don't agree, I should not respond. I thought this was an open forum for Formula Vee.

I basically think that the FV and Fst should stay separate. Each evolving on their own.


Bruce

[SR Racing]

There seems to be another sky is falling senario on the Formula Vee class. It seems for over 20 years now the end was near. The reasons are basically the same. It seems again if something isn't done soon FV will no longer exist. This is an estabilshed class for 46 years.

So lets ignore any price increases and parts shortages. I received two calls last week from Engine builders that needed 1200 Cylinders and pistons. They are out. So am I.
Wheels, cylinders/pistons, most front end components, etc. are out of production. Those few that are still available are worse quality and prices are going up. Those are FACTs.

Jim is advocating for Fst. He has given up on the thought of Fst as a stand alone class and suggests FV convert to Fst to save itself. I was wondering if it might be the other way? Fst needs FV to stay viable.

Wildly wrong. We (FST) are doing fine. I am worried about FV. I am NOT advocating everyone converting to FST. I DO NOT want FV to become FST. Just do SOMETHING to keep FV going. FST or a portion of it is a possibility for you. I WANT FST to stay a Regional FST class for as long as possible. Have you actually read my posts?

I'm posting here since for some reason I was not able to post on the other. I read his first post and ignored his opening statement. I don't need someone to tell me If I don't agree, I should not respond. I thought this was an open forum for Formula Vee.

It certainly is an open forum and I never said you couldn't post. My statement was for those who would scream and tell ME effectively not to post about FST. (See Brian's post.)

I basically think that the FV and Fst should stay separate. Each evolving on their own.

Me too! But FV is NOT evolving or apparently even considering the future. Your quote > "This is an established class for 46 years." You will be fine for another 46 years, I guess.?

[FVartist]

Jim,

I have not had trouble finding parts. Some new, some used. Just because they are used does not equate to lesser quality, just as being new does not make them better. Price increases are a fact of life. FV is doing quite well as it is still the third largest subscribed class as has been previously noted.

Yes, I have, you constantly refer to the Fst. I don't fault you, but you do advocate for the Fst quite alot.

I tried five times and was not able to, so I just opened a new post, as for Brian, no one but the administrator of this board, has the right to tell anyone not to comment. I also ignored your statement since I feel I also do not have the right to dismiss you just because I disagree with you. He was only telling everyone the proper way to advocate a rule change. This subject really has been done.

FV has evolved quite a lot. It seems to not have evolved to your satisfaction. No one has suggested it will last another 46 years, that would be foolish to suggest, almost as to suggest Fst will last as long. I still say let each proceed as individual classes. I see no reason to merge. You want to stay regional and FV will do both. Let each proceed alone.

Bruce

[Matt King]

The current FV participation numbers are definitely strong, but I can't help but think about the fact that the average age of participants in last year's Runoffs was 50. Is no one else concerned about a long-term strategy for the class, or will they just keep pointing out that there are plenty of parts and the class is third in overall participation until it slips to fourth, fifth, etc. and eventually out of the top 10? At what point would there be agreement that there is a participation issue, and what danger is there that by the time it's recognized, it could be too late? On the other hand, I know the danger of acting too quickly. I went through this recently in the class I ran with in another sanctioning body. The rules makers IMO jumped the gun and killed a healthy class by splitting it in two, arguing that we needed to "modernize" to keep up with the evolution of newer cars. So I can see both sides of the coin.

[SR Racing]

I have not had trouble finding parts.

Pistons and cylinders? I won't go on, but, I spend 6 days a week, buying, selling and trying to procure parts for our customers. I can assure you your insight is limited.

Price increases are a fact of life. FV is doing quite well as it is still the third largest subscribed class as has been previously noted.

It used to be first. Where will it be in 5 years?

I don't fault you, but you do advocate for the Fst quite alot.

I wish someone would actually read my posts. We HAVE a venue. I would like you to save FV. I have talked about FST rules only as an example of things to consider for the future in FV.

, no one but the administrator of this board, has the right to tell anyone not to comment. I also ignored your statement since I feel I also do not have the right to dismiss you just because I disagree with you. He was only telling everyone the proper way to advocate a rule change. This subject really has been done.

No one told anyone not to post. (other than Brian telling me to post on the FST board instead of this one.) Since my post is about the future rule possibilties of FV it belongs HERE. Not on the FST board where everyone already is aware.

FV has evolved quite a lot. It seems to not have evolved to your satisfaction.

The only evolving I care about is evolution that will keep an entry level acvw class alive. Removing fans, lightening components, front droop limiters, removing horns, drop in ignition sets, and all the other changes made in the last 20+ years hasn't addressed that.

I still say let each proceed as individual classes. I see no reason to merge. You want to stay regional and FV will do both. Let each proceed alone.

I completely agree. I want no merger. I am only pointing out that you (FV) need to do something. We have and are happy with it.

[SR Racing]

The rules makers IMO jumped the gun and killed a healthy class by splitting it in two, arguing that we needed to "modernize" to keep up with the evolution of newer cars. So I can see both sides of the coin.

Matt, having buit and supporting several NASA cars we are aware of some of these things. In the case of FV though, the "modernizing" is moving from a 45 year old venue to a 30 year old venue. And that newer venue has new part availabilty and 10 times the number of used and junk yard part availabilty with about 1/2 to 2/3 the price for camparible items. You are correct that "jumping the gun" could hurt a class. But we have tested all our concepts for 6 or 7 years. Some of these things are things FV should be looking at.

[remmers]

The current FV participation numbers are definitely strong, but I can't help but think about the fact that the average age of participants in last year's Runoffs was 50. Is no one else concerned about a long-term strategy for the class, or will they just keep pointing out that there are plenty of parts and the class is third in overall participation until it slips to fourth, fifth, etc. and eventually out of the top 10?

What is the average age of some of the other classes at the Runoffs? Where would I find that information? I would bet that the average age is no lower than say 30 for any of the classes save for perhaps the really fast cars that get a bit more attention. It's just how old people are when they find themselves with enough disposable income and maybe even a mid-life crisis to push them in the direction of motor racing. I'm under the impression it's quite rare to find an 18-25 y/o that makes enough money to support a bid for the Runoffs.

[Matt King]

I don't know, but realistically, how much older could the AVERAGE age of a class really get? You might be surprised if you attend some NASA events, for example, to find that not everyone road racing has gray hair and adult-aged children.

[SR Racing]

At some NASA races they have drifting exhibitions and bikini contests. I think the average age is quite a bit lower or they supply viagra for snacks.
(BTW, I am not pro or con either of the above, but it is indicative of the average age and managment styles.)

[problemchild]

No. FV does not need to be saved.
There is no need for a drop dead date. Both classes share the same run group so there is no subtraction by conversion. The only subtraction is when people quit because of undersized cockpits, expensive tires, unreliable engines, unnecassary trannies-of-the week, old age, high entry fees, insane transportation costs, or whatever reason is "too much" for them. That is before this insane manifold issue initiated by a few greedy people. In any case, these are Formula Vee issues or general race issues. The FV community has overwhelmingly chosen the status quo and committed to it. There is no going back.
It is unfortunate that so few FV people find credibility in the financial numbers of FST. There are a bunch of reasons which don't really matter. FST provided me with the most affordable racing since I raced FV in the 80s.
I think the market will determine how long FV continues. Most of the 16 FVs I saw at the Glen last weekend seemed to be having a good time. That is what it is all about!

[hardingfv32-1]

The formation of FST was a response to the majority of the FV drivers not wanting ANY change. A good size minority took the opportunity to do it right. FST is where FV will end up eventually, there is no other cost effective solution. At least we have a small working example of the future FV class working out all the issues that can come up with a new class.

Jim is completely right in bring the subject up again. It has to be brought forward until a majority see the light and start some kind of transition. I think he has done a responsible job with his presentation today.

Brian

[butchdeer]

The particpation numbers for formula vee show it to be thweSCCA's #3 most popular class. However only 2 SCCA Classes have double digit numbers. Being #3 of twent something with an average of 7.6 or so dosent speak well for FV as much as it speakes poorly for the SCCA. I was at a regional at Nelson Ledges a few weeks ago that had 2 FV's. The last time I went to a race with 2 FV's was 1963 when the class was just born. The class needs some help or we will just be doing track days because we won't have anyone to race with.
Butch

[hardingfv32-1]

This is a complex political issue. Recent history tells us that a transition must be done in small steps. First may we assume that FST is the proper goal as far a physical attributes? It seems like a solid platform.

Brian

[brian]

I have access to both Chinese and German P&C. Call if you need some.

[jaymzz]

IMO from me just starting into the formula world the FV class is to slow for most younger people to consider getting into. I am having a blast autocrossing my vee and would love to get it out on the track someday, but because I have duel carbs and disc brakes I am out of the vee classes from what I have been told. My car is roughly 140 HP and I couldn't imaging being limited to 40-60 or whatever the vee's are running, but I am used to my Mitsubishi evo also. Last weekend I was able to meet a couple vee owners and it was really fun to hear some of there stories about there past and formula vee's. It was pretty cool to watch them out on the coarse also. But if you want younger people to get involved there needs to be some changes. Last weekend I was able to see a lot of different styles of formula cars race and it changed my view of my car tremendously. As I have read in some other threads vee's are cheap to get into and race. But when I really think about it and start thinking about going out on the road coarse instead of autocross I would rather have something a little more modern and faster. When it comes to affordable open wheeled racing I now think of the formula ford, it has a modern suspension and faster than the vee and doesn't cost much more.

I am not trying to start any problems, but just want to point out my views of it from someone just getting into it.

[SR Racing]

When it comes to affordable open wheeled racing I now think of the formula ford, it has a modern suspension and faster than the vee and doesn't cost much more.

You are right in that it (FF) is a more race technical suspension, faster and in some cases you can find a cheap one. However, the FF in many cases is in the same situation as a Vee with parts availabilty and part pricing has always been higher. Also, A Solo FF can be run cheaply. But in road racing you are going to break and wear parts much faster. A VERY minor shunt to a FF can cost as much as a full vee to make it right again. Time to maintain is a little more and more tools are needed. (scales for example). I am sure that a FF is more attractive to the new people but a FF budget when everything is considered is much more. Although getting closer.

[butchdeer]

New piper FF nationally competitive $80,000.00 Plus. If you thinkk FF doesn,t cost thst much more than multiply your budget by 4 to stay at about the same level of competitioin.
Butch

[jaymzz]

New piper FF nationally competitive $80,000.00 Plus. If you thinkk FF doesn,t cost thst much more than multiply your budget by 4 to stay at about the same level of competitioin.
Butch

I will use myself as an example. I wanted to get into open wheel racing and started to look at different open wheeled cars. I wanted to find one as cheap as I could. That meant to me that whatever car I find will need some work. Sure I got a car that needed more work than most, but I bought it for dirt cheap. I am in no frame of thought of the car ever being nationally competitive as my first open wheeled car. I just want to learn the ins and outs of it before I start spending big money on a different car that can be nationally competitive which for me will probably be never. But I feel that if the FV class wants to stay around for another 20 years it is going to have to change something for the younger crowd for it to be more appealing. I am sorry, but I can't think of any kids I know that would want to buy a FV and be limited to 40-60 HP. They will want to add duel carbs, disc brakes and some other fun stuff that us gear heads enjoy. IMO if FV stays the way it is it will dye out when the older crowd retires, which seems sooner than later.

Lets talk budget racing. I went out and bought a $40,000 car added some more money in parts to it and raced it for three years with the only cost of tires, fluids and a clutch. Sure I have a car payment on it, but I can go to almost any track day with it and know I can rely on it. I break a part I call the local tuner shop up and order a part instantly for it. Well kids are dong the same thing but with Honda's, Toyota's, Nissan's, etc. They go out and find a Nissan 240 and throw a turbo on it plus a few other odds and ends and they are on the track for under $5000 most of the time. Most of the time the car the kid built can hold it's own on the track and he is proud of it. Something breaks and he does the same thing I do and call the local tuner shop and orders it. He blows a motor or a tranny he gets another one from the junk yard for $500.

Now Vee's. Lets say a kid buys a FV gets it on the track after racing his 240. He gets bored really quick and starts looking at the rules at what he can upgrade to make it faster. He then realizes he is limited to a 40HP engine and thinks that is lame. So then out of curiosity after not liking the drum brakes reads the rules there that says he can't upgrade to disc brakes. Now he is sitting there discouraged thinking he wasted his money on a slow car and regrets selling his 240. So trying to figure out how to get a little more out of the car he thinks about the last track day he had and saw his front tires leaning hard on every corner and looks into swapping the front beam to ball joint and rear to IRS. That will help make it a little more fun for a while. Reads the rules and can't do that. Now he is frustrated that he sold his 240 that he can go to the track with for relatively cheap for a slow POS. So from that he sells it and starts on another 240.

I sold a truck that I worked on for a long time and bought my vee. I joined here and learned that the owner lied to me and that the car can't compete with the FV because it has to many upgrades to make it funner. I also learned that it wasn't track ready either. So in short I am kind of like the 240 kid. I am enjoying my vee at the autocrosses, and will know about hillclimbs in a few weeks. But I told myself that when I get to the hillclimb and my vee is slower than my Evo was last year I am selling it and building a Subaru or a Honda to race and be done with open wheeled racing. Sure a faster car is more dangerous, but that is what most of us younger crowd are after. I wasn't going to say anything in this thread, but changes are needed IMO if FV wants to survive. FV owners are retiring and more and more FV are parked for good due to the class being to primitive.

I hope that I don't make anyone mad by my post, but After watching the vee's put around the coarse last weekend, and all the other historic cars roaring around the coarse, it changed my whole opinion of the vee. I mean who wouldn't want a turbo'd vee or a vee with an 2275cc engine to help push it around the coarse faster?

[SR Racing]

Jay,

You made some valid points, but I don't think what you have described is available in any wheel to wheel racing with the exception of SU or AIX (NASA) type venues, or bracket drag racing or just track days. Most every class is going to have performance limitations to keep it competitive (and somewhat reliable). No open amateur class is going to allow unlimited performance options.

Entry level racing should (in my mind) should always test car prep and driver talent. You have described someone who just wants to bolt on things and go faster. That desire certainly exists with some people, but it's not what we want here. (IMO)

[fvkartguy]

I'm a kid who bought an old rental vee ($5000) and played around in regional races for a while until I honed in my driving skills.
Now I feel like I've outgrown the car and am upgrading EVERYTHING.
However, I definitely do NOT feel limited by the rules. If anything, I'm thankful for the limitations (not that I wouldn't be in favor of changing rules to further lower costs).

If I had gone into FF, there's NO WAY I could have afforded a $40,000 car. If there were a car I could afford, I would have started out with a piece of junk that wouldn't be competitive and no money to even go racing, much less upgrade anything.
I'm trying to get the car to go faster, but faster compared to the people I'm competing with. FF doesn't have many participants here in Texas from what I've seen, so yeah you can go faster, but there isn't really anyone to compete against.

[CitationFV21]

[quote="jaymzz]

Now Vee's. Lets say a kid buys a FV gets it on the track after racing his 240. He gets bored really quick and starts looking at the rules at what he can upgrade to make it faster. He then realizes he is limited to a 40HP engine and thinks that is lame. So then out of curiosity after not liking the drum brakes reads the rules there that says he can't upgrade to disc brakes. Now he is sitting there discouraged thinking he wasted his money on a slow car and regrets selling his 240. So trying to figure out how to get a little more out of the car he thinks about the last track day he had and saw his front tires leaning hard on every corner and looks into swapping the front beam to ball joint and rear to IRS. That will help make it a little more fun for a while. Reads the rules and can't do that. Now he is frustrated that he sold his 240 that he can go to the track with for relatively cheap for a slow POS. So from that he sells it and starts on another 240.
[/quote]

I have been racing for over 30 years, and I have never been bored racing FV. But I do understand your point - I ran several slot car clubs. There are two types of slot car racers - those that want to excell driving equal cars, and those who want to go fast no matter what the rules (run what you brung). These types are not compatible. The FV rules were made to be a driver's class, not a builder or a "tuner" class. Maybe the SCCA is making a mistake in not having a class like that, but FV is not that class and I think we don't want it to become that class. If someone bought a FV and though he could "hot rod" it, then he totally misunderstood what the class is.

ChrisZ

[CitationFV21]

To the general question, "Does FV need to be saved?"

My first response would be "No, it does not need to be saved", but it does need constant attention.

There is no class out there right now, including SM and Spec Racer, that can afford to rest on their laurels.

On the other hand, if the SCCA was smart it could have killed FV, FF and F5 with a new simple formula class.

But it screwed up and built a $50,000.car that obviously very few people wanted.

Right now we have 3 classes in search of an identity. FV with FST, F5 with F600 (motorcycle engine and FC with FB -(there is that mc engine again..) 4 with FE

An alternitive engine for FF will come up again as new smaller cars come on the market. The amazing thing is that you have 3 classes fighting over the same territory that probably can support only 2.

Ideas will come later as it is 1am and I need some sleep zzzzzzzz

ChrisZzzzzzzzzzz

[remmers]

With regards to a new engine as availability of the older engines decrease, already happened. They use Z-Tec engines from the Ford Focus with I believe a restrictor plate to put them on equal footing with the old carbureted engines. Maybe we should try something like, maybe not. Kinda hard to limit newer or bigger engines to 60ish HP without causing troubles

[jaymzz]

Jay,

You made some valid points, but I don't think what you have described is available in any wheel to wheel racing with the exception of SU or AIX (NASA) type venues, or bracket drag racing or just track days. Most every class is going to have performance limitations to keep it competitive (and somewhat reliable). No open amateur class is going to allow unlimited performance options.

Entry level racing should (in my mind) should always test car prep and driver talent. You have described someone who just wants to bolt on things and go faster. That desire certainly exists with some people, but it's not what we want here. (IMO)

Thank you for explaining that. I have not been out on the road coarse with my vee yet, so my opinion is very biased on Autocross so far. I do understand the performance limitations in a class to keep it competitive though.

[butchdeer]

I feel it's all about the competition not the absolute speed. Most competitive vee racers enjoy the competition which is why the runn offs is usually a great race. The old pro vee series was that way. What I feel is going away today is there is not much copetition with an average of 7.6 cars per race (probably even less at the regional level). A vee by itself on a track like road america is boring. 50 plus vees at road america were great as there were drafting groups throughout the field and you had to use racecraft to get to the head of your group on the last lap. Large car counts not HP make exciting racing. What can we do to bring back the competition?
Butch Deer