I have the impression from reading the posts on this site that there is a lot of dissatisfaction within the FV community, and I notice also that there seems to be a fair amount of misinformation floating about. So what else is new, right?
I don't know what can be done about the dissatisfaction, except that due to misinformation, but regarding the latter it seems to me that the SCCA and its regions could do more to help us understand their actions. In particular, there needs to be greater "transparency". To me, that has two aspects:
1. Greater communication concerning management decision making; and
2. More available information concerning finances.
I want to focus on the second since in my opinion it is a worse problem, and because it seems that much of the negativity expressed on this site has to do with money.
The fundamental tool in creating financial transparency is the balance sheet. I assume everybody knows what one of these is, and if not, you can find out all you need to know by going to the Wikipedia web site, and doing a search on "balance sheet". From the SCCA balance sheet it is possible to determine how much of our resources are going to Club Racing as opposed to SCCA Enterprises, etc., and what each of the entities earns to support itself. I think the SCCA does make such a balance sheet available to the membership, or at least it did at one time. (Sorry, I don't read Sports Car any more, it is such a rag.)
One thing it foes not do for sure is to provide us access to budgetary information, and as far as I know, the regions don't either. From a budget we would be able to see how much the regions pay the tracks, for instance. That is, from the budget one can find out how much it really costs to put on an event.
I don't know how one would go about petitioning the powers that be to provide this information, but I think it would be quite illuminating, and shut up some of the critics. Based on my own experience running track events for a car club 20 some years ago, I don't think the costs are out of line, given inflation. I also know that when I built our program from a money loser to a profitable enterprise, there was great pressure to use it as a cash cow, and use the proceeds to fund programs that did not directly benefit the folks who were going to the track. I would bet the SCCA is no different in that regard.
If any of you out there in cyberspace have access to actual data, it might be useful to the community if you would be so kind as to post it. I for one would appreciate it.
Transparency
Re: Transparency
I have shared the data that I have here in the past. While I don't have the exact figures in front of me, I believe that Lime Rock Park charges the SCCA $26,000 per day to rent their track. That's $52,000/weekend. Feel free to guestimate flagger lunches (@$10/each?), volunteer trinkets, and of course event trophies plus the trinkets like take-home checkered flags.24b4Jeff wrote:If any of you out there in cyberspace have access to actual data, it might be useful to the community if you would be so kind as to post it. I for one would appreciate it.
In terms of Topeka's cut for insurance and sanctions, I'll let y'all make heads or tails out of these forms. I'm a conehead, and don't know what half of the club racing crap in these forms actually means:
http://www.scca.com/documents/Club%20Fo ... cation.pdf
http://www.scca.com/documents/Club%20Fo ... erison.pdf
I don't have a clue about what the traditional entry fee is or how many drivers show up at a typical Lime Rock Park event, so I'll defer this part of an event balance sheet to someone who has the event flyers and/or results sheets.
When you factor in a region's other annual expenses (awards banquets, class champion trophies, points series memberships, etc), I think that you'll quickly discover that the only people getting rich off of a Lime Rock Park race weekend are the people who own the track.
As for the big secret of the balance sheets, feel free to run for an office next time nominations are open in your region. If you want something done right, do it yourself.....
Re: Transparency
That seems a bit high, but I have no real info on Lime Rock.
This appears to be Gingerman' rates:
http://www.gingermanraceway.com/price-list-and-services
I know Mid-O was cheaper (than Lime Rock), but that was a few years ago.
This appears to be Gingerman' rates:
http://www.gingermanraceway.com/price-list-and-services
I know Mid-O was cheaper (than Lime Rock), but that was a few years ago.
Re: Transparency
Those are the correct track rental rates. SBR is running a national at the end of August at GingerMan and the budget for the event is $28k and change. It will take a 100 car entry to break even. Last year we lost money for the same event.
I can't speak for other regions but we have an open financial policy. Show up to a meeting and the Treasurer will gladly show you whatever you wish to see.We also publish a yearly financial report in our club newspaper.
I take it that this is not the case with most regions, I have heard several times that Chicago regions finances a a closely gaurded secret and only accesable by Board members.
Dave
I can't speak for other regions but we have an open financial policy. Show up to a meeting and the Treasurer will gladly show you whatever you wish to see.We also publish a yearly financial report in our club newspaper.
I take it that this is not the case with most regions, I have heard several times that Chicago regions finances a a closely gaurded secret and only accesable by Board members.
Dave
Re: Transparency
I can't speak for other regions (actually, I can't speak FOR Atlanta region either ...), but I do believe that the commonly held belief that finances are "closely held secrets" is a bit incorrect. Most of the larger regions no longer PUBLICIZE their finances for the same reasons that most of us don't publicize OUR personal finances. On the other hand, most board meetings are open to members (with advance request) and MOST of the time, you can get an answer to any specific questions you ask. As a general rule, *MOST* members do not immediately recognize the overhead associated with running an event ... or a racing region for that matter.
In our case (Atlanta), the region provides a LOT of $$$ items to support an event beyond what it costs to rent the track. Tow trucks, Doctor, pace car(s), Ambulance, worker lunches, worker incentives, RADIOS, ice, staff 'treats' (mostly in hot weather), computers, timing equipment, etc, etc, etc. We continue to spend more and more $$$ trying to get/retain workers to support the events. Beyond that, the region maintains an office and an office manager with the attendant overheads that go with them - electricity, water, rent, salary, medical, etc, etc. The region puts on 1 or 2 big 'get togethers' for the general membership each year - complete with food and beverages - all in an effort to promote camaraderie and cross support between the various types of racing groups - solo/rally/club race... ... and occasionally to provide some INFORMATION to those in attendance. If you want to know more about how your region works, then VOLUNTEER to DO SOMETHING for it - run for an office - be a licensing chairman - work in T&S - work in Tech, etc. Sitting around bitching and griping to those that ARE volunteering doesn't seem to help much - it alienates them and tends to make them want to STOP volunteering - that doesn't help you in the long run.
In the end, it comes up to a fairly large chunk of change. Many smaller regions do not have these requirements (tho any that hold Club Races have the same or more worker expenses - many providing all meals and even motels) and therefore SHOULD be able to have lower entry fees ... but as a general rule, they don't. The standard is set by the larger regions (via the budget process) and the smaller ones generally follow suit (with minor variances). The budget process is .... interesting. It has to be done at the beginning of the year and you HAVE to plan on a minimum number of entries based on historical numbers. You (we (they, now)) look at the costs associated with the event, historical attendance (by DRIVERS - the ones that PAY to be there), pick a reasonable 'expectation number' based on current indicators (numbers are down everywhere this year due mostly to fuel costs) and figure the entry fee to break even or make a few bucks. If the entry is higher, then the region puts money in the bank ... if it's lower, they lose their ass and have to 'do better' at the next event (if there IS one) - that is assuming they HAVE $$$ in the bank to cover the losses. [ponder for a moment, how TEN entries @ $300 per entry can affect the balance sheet - from $1500 IN the bank to $1500 *OUT* of the bank - and you have to forecast that 6 months in advance.]
I can say from experience, it's a tougher assignment than it appears from the outside. In most regions, all it takes to get on the board is to go to a meeting and say you WANT to be on it - there's not much competition. People don't stand in line much to do work for free
... and it IS work. RUN for an office in your region - serve for at least a year and you'll have a MUCH better understanding of WHY things are the way they are. Oft times, you can even IMPROVE things .. or help to do so. Give it a shot!
As for National?? Hmmmm.. THAT seems to be a different ball game, but I haven't run for a director's office yet and so can't really say. I suspect I'd be surprised at what I found out if I did. I CAN say that the costs associated with attending the Runoffs is getting out of hand. It costs more to attend that one event competitively than the entire rest of the season these days. That doesn't seem right for an 'amateur' CLUB event. This is becoming a rich(er) man's /woman's sport - even more so than it always has been. It would also APPEAR (from the 'outside') that National only has 2 sources of income - membership / (racing) license fees and .... wait for it ... the RUNOFFS! I guess you can add Compliance and sanction fees to that, but they are small change comparatively (I think). I, for one, would certainly be interested to know what the salaries are for our top officials. It would SEEM that it should be public info, but with hippa and everything these days, it's probably not any more. I don' t have a clue whether our President makes $90k or $1.6mil.
Anyone at National who reads this board care to comment?
Steve
In our case (Atlanta), the region provides a LOT of $$$ items to support an event beyond what it costs to rent the track. Tow trucks, Doctor, pace car(s), Ambulance, worker lunches, worker incentives, RADIOS, ice, staff 'treats' (mostly in hot weather), computers, timing equipment, etc, etc, etc. We continue to spend more and more $$$ trying to get/retain workers to support the events. Beyond that, the region maintains an office and an office manager with the attendant overheads that go with them - electricity, water, rent, salary, medical, etc, etc. The region puts on 1 or 2 big 'get togethers' for the general membership each year - complete with food and beverages - all in an effort to promote camaraderie and cross support between the various types of racing groups - solo/rally/club race... ... and occasionally to provide some INFORMATION to those in attendance. If you want to know more about how your region works, then VOLUNTEER to DO SOMETHING for it - run for an office - be a licensing chairman - work in T&S - work in Tech, etc. Sitting around bitching and griping to those that ARE volunteering doesn't seem to help much - it alienates them and tends to make them want to STOP volunteering - that doesn't help you in the long run.
In the end, it comes up to a fairly large chunk of change. Many smaller regions do not have these requirements (tho any that hold Club Races have the same or more worker expenses - many providing all meals and even motels) and therefore SHOULD be able to have lower entry fees ... but as a general rule, they don't. The standard is set by the larger regions (via the budget process) and the smaller ones generally follow suit (with minor variances). The budget process is .... interesting. It has to be done at the beginning of the year and you HAVE to plan on a minimum number of entries based on historical numbers. You (we (they, now)) look at the costs associated with the event, historical attendance (by DRIVERS - the ones that PAY to be there), pick a reasonable 'expectation number' based on current indicators (numbers are down everywhere this year due mostly to fuel costs) and figure the entry fee to break even or make a few bucks. If the entry is higher, then the region puts money in the bank ... if it's lower, they lose their ass and have to 'do better' at the next event (if there IS one) - that is assuming they HAVE $$$ in the bank to cover the losses. [ponder for a moment, how TEN entries @ $300 per entry can affect the balance sheet - from $1500 IN the bank to $1500 *OUT* of the bank - and you have to forecast that 6 months in advance.]
I can say from experience, it's a tougher assignment than it appears from the outside. In most regions, all it takes to get on the board is to go to a meeting and say you WANT to be on it - there's not much competition. People don't stand in line much to do work for free
... and it IS work. RUN for an office in your region - serve for at least a year and you'll have a MUCH better understanding of WHY things are the way they are. Oft times, you can even IMPROVE things .. or help to do so. Give it a shot!As for National?? Hmmmm.. THAT seems to be a different ball game, but I haven't run for a director's office yet and so can't really say. I suspect I'd be surprised at what I found out if I did. I CAN say that the costs associated with attending the Runoffs is getting out of hand. It costs more to attend that one event competitively than the entire rest of the season these days. That doesn't seem right for an 'amateur' CLUB event. This is becoming a rich(er) man's /woman's sport - even more so than it always has been. It would also APPEAR (from the 'outside') that National only has 2 sources of income - membership / (racing) license fees and .... wait for it ... the RUNOFFS! I guess you can add Compliance and sanction fees to that, but they are small change comparatively (I think). I, for one, would certainly be interested to know what the salaries are for our top officials. It would SEEM that it should be public info, but with hippa and everything these days, it's probably not any more. I don' t have a clue whether our President makes $90k or $1.6mil.
Anyone at National who reads this board care to comment?
Steve
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
Re: Transparency
Since the mid-1990's, Lime Rock has been out to screw all of their customers. Every year sees an automatic $500 increase for marque club rentals, to the point where very few of them can even afford to run a single weekday event at LRP any more. When I was an officer in a non-SCCA club in the late 1990's, we had a March Saturday time trial date. Lime Rock insisted on payment in full 30 days before the event. Two days before our event, a marque club ran the first event of the year on the track, and launched a car into the woods over a snow plow bank because the track never cleared the runoff areas of leftover snow. Long story short, the track canceled our event with little more than 24 hours notice for safety reasons...AND KEPT OUR ENTIRE RENTAL PAYMENT!!! Their contract said that they could do that, and there was no way that we could hire a lawyer to point out that they were negligent in preparing the track for our event since our club's treasury (and then some!) was tied up between the lost rent and refunding pre-paid entrants.SR Racing wrote:That seems a bit high, but I have no real info on Lime Rock.
If you think that things have changed since then, I heard through the grapevine that last weekend's LRP marque club event had problems with the track not allowing cars to run "because the new pavement wasn't fully cured." Yup, pay to rent a track, and wind up holding the most expensive concourse outside of Pebble Beach! Refund to the club? I can tell you from personal experience not to hold your breath waiting at the mailbox for an envelope from LRP.
For those not familiar with Lime Rock politics, the local community will not allow them to race on Sundays, and only permits them a limited number (7?) of un-muffled Friday/Saturday events. With ALMS, NASCAR, and all of the Pro events competing for one of 7 event dates every year, the SCCA gets bent over a barrel for what's left of those 7 dates. I was at the SCCA's NEDiv mini-convention a few years ago when the management of LRP came in to discuss the last round of major rent increases, so I heard the whole explanation first-hand. That's where my rental price figure came from.
To add some more drama to Lime Rock events, they recently added "The Club at Lime Rock" private motorsports resort group. I heard from another marque club (that also now no longer runs at LRP) that the contract offered by the track includes a clause that their club would have to vacate the track at any time that a member of "The Club" wanted to use the facility while their event was going on. Yup, black flag all of the cars from the group that's paying to rent the track off of the circuit so that somebody with deep pockets from "The Club" can use the track per the terms of their "The Club" membership. You can't make this stuff up.
Anyway, if you think that $26,000/day is high, I'll bet that it's closer to $27,500/day for 2008 based on past price increase history.....
Re: Transparency
The only person on the BoD who reads this forum is Lisa Noble. Hell, some of the old fossils are computer illiterate and proud of it. The National staff doesn't have time to read this forum. With the two recent departures of personnel, the club racing side of the house is severly understaffed. The Solo program is about 5 people and the Rally program is one person.I, for one, would certainly be interested to know what the salaries are for our top officials. It would SEEM that it should be public info, but with hippa and everything these days, it's probably not any more. I don' t have a clue whether our President makes $90k or $1.6mil.
Anyone at National who reads this board care to comment?
Steve
I have no idea what we pay the president of SCCA, but the staffers don't make that much. The reason the SCCA moved to Topeka from Denver is because the staffers couldn't afford to live in Denver. Or looking at it from the other direction, SCCA couldn't afford to pay enough to keep good employees if they stayed in Denver.
69 Beach Solo Vee, #65 FM
85 Lynx B Solo Vee
71 Zink C4 Solo Vee
85 Lynx B Solo Vee
71 Zink C4 Solo Vee
Re: Transparency
I think that is so, but I think most of the concerns are re: the costs of racing. And this certainly isn't only the actions of the SCCA, their officers salaries, etc. Every single item that we racers use are going up in price FASTER than the normal inflation rate. (Fuel, Tires, Travel, Medical Insurance, parts (read shortages). ) Since we don't have any direct control (or does the SCCA) over these items, other actions have to be taken. Better scheduling of events, possibly addressing tire longevity. (I could go on to talk about some of the things that FST has done, but would rather keep it on track to racing in general.)I have the impression from reading the posts on this site that there is a lot of dissatisfaction within the FV community...
When we started in FV racing, it seemed as if we could race almost EVERY weekend within driving distance. This is no longer the case and I really think they are going to have to eliminate the current REG/NAT program as it stands. A good single race scedule with probably half as many events is probably the only solution. At least the sanctioning body will make money / event.
Other than attracting many new drivers to the SCCA, this has to happen.
It's is NEVER going to be cheap for many reasons.
The fuel issue needs to be addressed, and I don't have the answers. But in the case of FV and many other classes,... street pump fuel is obvious. $4 vs. $8 or more. That's only $25 or so less a weekend, but it's a piece. In the case of a big bore it's much more.
I don't think the number of classes in the SCCA has any direct influence on racing participation (maybe the inverse).. but it REALLY is unorthodox. One hundred plus cars show up at an event to participate in 15 or 20 classes. 40 or 50 people go home with trophies. (some for simply completing 8 laps.) BTW, It's not a big savings, maybe $500, but do we want trophies? Give me a certificate or a sticker for the car. List me in SportsCar mag.
Or give the workers some gas money. As an aside:
I think there are only 3 reasons to race in the SCCA. 1. Simply for the fun, 2. Competitiveness (winning), and 3. Getting spotted by Penske and being hired.
We can ignore 3. For those in group 2.:: If they want to buy the exotic fuels, let them. Group 1 will be unaffected. And... I think you will see all the same guys win.
Other than the business side of racing, we never really took it seriously. It is simply a Bowling or Golf League. Unlike Racing, there are lots of alleys, balls, courses, etc. We can shop around.
We have road raced in 3 different orgizations. SCCA is our least favorite, but with FV, it's the only game in town. (for all practical purposes). It is VERY clear to us that the "non-profit" organization diciplines are the least efficient, most costly, with more overhead. I think NASA has put a lot of pressure on the SCCA and if they come to understand the free market, they will get better. Once the two organization truly become competitve across the board, there will be a downward pressure on prices (and better treatment of "customers".) But only at some administrative level. For the reasons above, prices aren't going to drop.
I know this has been mentioned time and time again.. But it is still the SECRET CCA. Ads on Speed TV are cheap. Ads in other car magazines are cheap. Bulk mail flyers via car enthusiast magazine mail lists are cheap. As a race shop with lots of walk-in performance car customers, I can tell you NO one knows anything about the SCCA. They come in her wide-eyed looking at all the Mustangs, Miatas, FST, FV's etc. and ask what are these? Where do they race? How do you contact the SCCA?, etc.
While we need some help with the economy issues, the SCCA won't get any customers if no one knows who or what they are. (Speaking of... where is that promo DVD? I sell 5 to 10 "Getting Started in FV" books a month to people I never heard of. A DVD would make FV racing even more attractive.
Jim
Re: Transparency
And for those that are interested in club finances at the national level just open up your Sports Car. This month has the independant auditors report . 6 pages worth.