Low turnouts

[OhioMark]

The cause of small FV fields this year are numerous, but I was wondering what specific reason each driver had and
do you plan to race more or less in the upcoming years? I think back to only 4-5 years ago, and here in Ohio we had
12-20 cars showing up at Nelson (prior to upgrades), and now they barely get 5-8 for a regional over the past two years.
I also wondered if the creation of a Club FV (CFV) similiar to the Club Ford would bring out older less competitive vee's?

Just wondering!

Mark

[Larry Bradley]

With a race weekend costing over $1000, and gas for the tow vehicle eating up an entry fee, it's a wonder anyone is coming out.

[CitationFV21]

We tried Club Vee here in the NE a few years ago. While the initial results were promising, in the end, we found out that people were not coming out for a trophy. If it cost $X.xx to race, it did not matter if you were fighting for 4th or 14th.

I have floated this idea before, but there will need to be more track championships and the drivers will not have to travel too far to race. We could be sitting on a great time to get started in racing if you lived in Northern NJ or Southern CT, as in a few years you will have 6 tracks within 3 - 4 hours. On the other hand, Boston, home of the Caldwell D-13, might not be a good location.

With entry fees around $300 and Tow gas around $150 per weekend; throw in food and incidentals, and there ain't much left for the car! If you travel, $1000 per weekend is possible, but if you live within 1 hr of the track, $600 - $700 is doable (remembering to amortize tires, motor rebuilds etc.)

The biggest thing someone could do is get a sponsor to knock down the entry fee - rather than give away $2000 in merchandise, put that to the entry fee and then have the region give a discount for every entry over certain number. If the average is 10 cars, give everyone a $10 discount for every car over that.

In the above example with a $300 entry fee, if 15 FVs show up, then the region makes an extra $750 and the entry fee ends up being $116!

Even with a $1000 sponsorship, the entry fee is $183.

May sound crazy, but this type of thinking is needed if prices stay where they are.

ChrisZ

[Larry Bradley]

This also brings up a real rub with me.
The SCCA has done NOTHING to help the racer.

TV is showing high school volleyball and lawnmower races and in 50 years the SCCA has done NOTHING to promote the races or racers.
Actually they went out of their way to not promote. They didn't want drivers getting "too big for their britches" and causing problems.


You can't get sponsorship unless you can offer a sponsor something in return. And what can we offer in exposier or value alone?

Enough before I get myself mad again and ruin my own day.

[OhioMark]

Chris & larry:

I wonder how many drivers quit racing because they feel their cars are no longer competitive, so why pay $600- $1000
to race for 5th, 6th , 7th or even last?

Mark

P.S.: Larry: Don't you have an older Lynx B ?

[Larry Bradley]

Mark,

Yes I do. I tore it down for a complete rebuild, new frame rails with some trick stuff done to it.
I bought another car to race while working on the Lynx.
Kind of a mistake

I didn't get the Lynx back together, I had another heart attack and my faithful crew guy Bob moved to Florida and I have retired.

Larry

[Kartgraphix]

I've spent a lot of time and canvassed a boat load of "X" drivers on this topic. The problems are just not as simple as making racing a little less expensive or some other superficial issue easily addressed. The reality is, motorsport has evolved, while life as we know it has become more costly and complex all over. We all have shorter attention spans in a universe filled to overwhelming with options and exciting things to do. It's somewhat about costs, but its also about a slow erosion of interest. For the same time and money, one can achieve more elsewhere. Of the dozen or so I know who have quit, costs were but one of many reasons cited. Kids getting older, too much pain from joints, worries about inury, other competing interests, business demands, general loss of intertest in it all, hopelessness in competition, stupid rules, cars getting obsolete, driving street cars in driving events where competition is not a factor at all, and a growing desire to chase other rainbows were all cited as reasons why cars were gone, licenses expired, and airline tickets for Spain and Italy to eat seafood from the Med have displaced entry forms and track food.

Even I look at what I've spent and the time consumed, and wonder why I didn't put all of that into the hot rod project I have always wanted to build. Now, with a new business to build up - to escape employment hell once and for all - the idea of continuing to hemhorage capital into something I may or may not ever get good enough to truly feel satisfied with.... is really beginning to eat at me. Yet, I remain, partly because I still am an idiot for cars, and partlyh because getting out is not an option with the value of cars today in the tank. Might as well keep playing with the toy, over letting it rot in the garage.

I'll stay in the game as long as I feel I making progress and having fun, and can afford to keep putting the car back together after being banged around. Take the fun away, make me feel hopeless and alone, break my car from stupid class mixes... and I won't give two hoots what the costs are - and will cut the thing up for scrap and find some other waste of my time and money.

Cheers

[CitationFV21]

Kevin is right in that it is not just money. It takes a perfect storm of money, interest, people and tracks to make really large turnouts.

FV has endured FF, Spec Racer, IT and now Spec Miata and continues to be one of the larger groups.

Here is my turn to rant - in the 30+ years I have been around the SCCA, at least 3 times they have made an attempt to consolidate classes.

Each time they were stopped by "the membership". I don't remember voting on this. I take nothing away from Spec Miata - this is the FV of the 2000's, but there is strength in numbers, and faced with all the classes in the SCCA how can any class attract new members? (I know F First is trying)

"I wonder how many drivers quit racing because they feel their cars are no longer competitive, so why pay $600- $1000
to race for 5th, 6th , 7th or even last?"

My car is now 28 years old and still capable of winning regionals - motor, transmission, tires - all things that can be bought or rebuilt. On the other hand if the cost of participating exceeds the fun factor, you stop racing. Right now we are on that edge. We should get 20 heat cycles out of a set of tires. 20 or more races out of an engine rebuild, and entry fees around $250 or less and people will show up again.

ChrisZ

[jgaither]

For some at least, vintage FV is an answer. The racing is real and in some places the fields are very good. VSCDA which operates in the CenDiv area draws 25 or more cars at most races and they get their own run group - just like the good old days. In the SE, VDCA is doing a good job & we draw good FV fields. We race with small bore prod cars, but you get used to it. If it is a really big event, we just do a split start as we have done numerous times at VIR. We did that this past weekend at their Gold Cup Historics & we got to go first, which meant podiums for 3 of us. On Saturday's qualifying race, I started on the front row alongside a blood red Ferrari 250 GTO. How cool is that? Me and my $10K Zink & him in his ($$$$youfillintheblanks) priceless machine. I sure hope somebody was taking pictures.

Yes, vintage races have higher entry fees. This is offset by lots of track time and good behavior on the track. The racing is quite real - ask anyone who saw the 39 vintage starters at the birthday party. And, yes, vintage fields are down this year as well. Nevertheless, what one gets for his money is pretty cool. The parties and the food are good, too. Less hassles. Fewer power hungry officials. Ego's kept in check. Even the tires last longer.

Give it a try. Rules vary by region and sanctioning body.

jg

[Veefan]

NEW BLOOD...
That's what really needed, as drivers needs, wants, and desires change, people/drivers will naturally drop off. While lower fees, opening up vintage classes, etc. will bring some back, you will still have drop off. Attract new drivers to formula vee!!!!!

[fv195]

car counts? look at what Bob Tupper did @ summit point! fv counts were low and summit said unless you have more cars we will put fv in groups that you don't want to be in. Bob made it happen! I don't want to leave out any one that helped him, but as far as I know it was he who did the grunt work. Summit get 10-15 vees every event now. One mans vision, and hard work made it happen. I plan on racing there this summer. came north from Fl to race up here this summer. low counts there also. "too many races"is what Fred Clark told me. by the way, if you need work done on your car, and are any where near Fl Fred is the man! He replaced my roll bar with a taller/wider one. and it is some of the best work I ever saw!
THANK YOU FRED!
THOR
FV70
The Brazos

[Mark_Silverberg]

Entries are not down in VSCDA in the Michigan / IL area. Our vintage series is growing at about 2 cars per year. Fields are approaching 30 cars per race with the Grattan August race being our largest event. We have a best 3 of 5 race weekend point series and attract cars from as far away as Florida and MO although most of our members are in the Ohio, IL, Indiana, and MIchigan area. There are still plenty of competitive cars available at reasonable prices. Tire and engine rules tend to limit costs. I run at least 4 weekends on a set of tires with very little fall off in performance. With good tire management you could probably get 6 weekends out of them. We still have to run cooling fans (the FV restrictor plate) so our top RPMS are lower.

Probably most important we have a self managed series so we control our own fate within the sanctioning body. The series typically provides at least 20% of the entries for the weekend which does provide us with some leverage.

[Kartgraphix]

Another thing making Vintage popular is that it de-emphasizes competition for championship standings, which relieves some of the feeling of failure, and lessons the stress of the whole effort. We've looked at vintage classes from sports cars to formula, and everyone we talk to about it comment that the puprose of playing with vintage cars is #1 - Have a fun weekend, and #2, Enjoy literally driving down memory lane. Of course, some are more competitive than others.... some classes more insane than others (like Trans Am)...

Considering the growth in vintage, karting of non-racer practice day karters, and the popularity of HPDE's where racing is not even allowed... I wonder if their might be some gains made by de-emphasizing racing as the core reason for existance. It is entirely possible that efforts to create more championships at the local level and pressing to increase competitiveness have actually eroded interest amongst as many as improved it for others.

Another dynamic to keep in mind - those who quit right this minute, know only what causes them immediate disatisfaction with the whole effort at this moment, which is only part of the issue. Racing has ALWAYS been expensive, takes time, absorbs space, eats into relationships, etc... Nothing has changed there. The idea that someone all of a sudden decides that some small change or time has lead them to a defining moment where they can't take it any more, is patently rediculous. Yes, people to come to a point where they decide racing is no longer of interest... but I contend that class structures, incremental cost changes, championship points structures, etc... are not the core reason anyone quits.

This is why solving problems from within any organization facing a decline in participation never works. If you race now, you don't really know why those who once did are gone. What racers now want as racers to improve their interest is actually almost totally irrelevant. What is really needed is a committee made up of non-members and rfecently departed members, who are no longer active, but are still somewhat interested in the sport... they are the ones that should be heard, and listened to, they are the ones that need to be pulled back in. Of course this won't work either - as the number of reasons people quit exceeds (far beyond practical resolution) the number of reasons people stay and play.

In fact - the impact of people lamenting the decline in racing participation creates a negative cloud over the sport, enabling those looking for an excuse to bail out, by making them feel they are not alone in ther exit - better get out before the whole thing caves and kills what little value remains in the old junk filling the garage, right? In this regard, motor-sport is easily the worst marketed activity on the planet - in a universe filled to overwhelming with well marketed competing alternative opportunities to spend our time and money.

Anyone want to name one or two good things they hear about racing today? Exactly what is the storm of positive buzz we think is in the general market about racing to attract new entries? From where I sit, 99% of what we hear about motor sport is: 1.) It's crazy expensive, 2.) Competition means irresponsible risk of injury, 3.) Participation is way off and its looking like the end is near, 4.) Open wheel racing is dead - as has been proven by the loss of CART and F1 leaving the USA, 5.) The SCCA is a mess and loosing members every year, 6.) Racing is not environmentally responsible, 7.) Racing is too expensive and time consuming for modest budgets, 8.) The only way to win is to cheat and spend more than everyone else - anything less will result in just being a poor looser, 9.) Racing is dying off as an adult interest, its an obsolete sport in light of modern issues facing us all, and my all time favorite: 10.) Racing without a chance of winning the championship and dominating the class is a total waste of time - why bother just being a looser?

Yeah, I'm all a flutter with such great marketing....

[billinstuart]

I sold my vee in the 80's, and crewed on my friends vee until he sold it recently. We had a great run, great car, Caracal C with elite body, several regional championships, all with NO professional help. History now. Reason, too many doorslammers, and not enough track time. SCCA is all about money, especially since they're not getting "trans-am" residuals. Got, what, 37 classes now? Plus vintage? All on one weekend. Vees get lumped in with sedans or Sports Renault or whatever it is they call it now because "the lap times are similar". Brilliant. Those things hold up the vees in the turns, and outrun 'em to the next turn. No more "racing", just driving and fighting with non-class cars.

The nature of amateur racing is changing. Enduros, which chew up track time. "Arrive and Drive" setups. Fewer donor vehicles for open wheel stuff. TECHNOLOGY!.. Hasn't been a car built with a carburetor since 1990. I witnessed this "new wind of change" when I went to the Nurburgring in the '80's, and saw NO open wheel cars in amateur racing. Basically all IT cars, which ultimately changed the course of SCCA racing here in the states.

All these conspire to reduce the attractiveness of Vees. It's a shame. A truly GREAT class. Great people involved. We used to get 3 hours seat time at Road Atlanta on a weekend. Now what, one 15 minute qualifying, and maybe a 30 minute race, if the enduro didn't run overtime.

It's just not FUN anymore. SCCA bureaucracy is worthless. What incentive is there for new recruits? Can't even get corner workers anymore, the absolute unsung heroes of SCCA racing. Sure, costs have escalated, but if we were getting the bang for the buck, it would be a non-issue.

I don't even go to the track anymore. Kinda like having to watch an old friend slowly pass away; someone you spent many memorable hours with. I frankly don't know what the solution is. Is SCCA broken beyond repair? Is amateur racing doomed as we remember it? Is that stoopid drifting stuff the future? Am I just a dinosaur?

Bill Frondorf

[qposner]

I SCCA bureaucracy is worthless. What incentive is there for new recruits? Can't even get corner workers anymore, the absolute unsung heroes of SCCA racing. Sure, costs have escalated, but if we were getting the bang for the buck, it would be a non-issue.

I don't even go to the track anymore. Kinda like having to watch an old friend slowly pass away; someone you spent many memorable hours with. I frankly don't know what the solution is. Is SCCA broken beyond repair? Is amateur racing doomed as we remember it? Is that stoopid drifting stuff the future? Am I just a dinosaur?

Bill Frondorf

Im afraid Bill is more right than wrong. I have only been racing FV since 1992 but have been around it since 1982 when I was 8 thanks to my dad. Bill's assessment has a lot of merit and that is sad.

[qposner]

I SCCA bureaucracy is worthless. What incentive is there for new recruits? Can't even get corner workers anymore, the absolute unsung heroes of SCCA racing. Sure, costs have escalated, but if we were getting the bang for the buck, it would be a non-issue.

I don't even go to the track anymore. Kinda like having to watch an old friend slowly pass away; someone you spent many memorable hours with. I frankly don't know what the solution is. Is SCCA broken beyond repair? Is amateur racing doomed as we remember it? Is that stoopid drifting stuff the future? Am I just a dinosaur?

Bill Frondorf

Im afraid Bill is more right than wrong. I have only been racing FV since 1992 but have been around it since 1982 when I was 8 thanks to my dad. Bill's assessment has a lot of merit and that is sad.

[Thomas Galuardi]

I have had the same old FV since 1973!!! I used to be somewhat competitive, but for some reason every one else is going faster and perhaps I'm getting older and slower. But, even being back in the pack I enjoy the atmosphere at the track. There once was an add somewhere that said your friend likes baseball, but can he play in Fenway or Yankee Stadium? I can drive at Watkins Glen and Lime Rock. I also corner work whenever I get the chance. I'm just addicted to the race track.

I only wish SCCA was more creative to lower entry fees, and increase track time. Thanks for giving me a place to rant.

Tom Galuardi FV #20

[butchdeer]

The varous SCCA regions are sensitive to car counts and with the cost of track rental,insurance and all the other costs associated with putting on a race I understand where this is coming from. I also understand that if you can produce a large number of entries in your class you can use this sensetivities to your advantage by leverageing the $$$ power of entries to get a region to give you favorible track time or run groups. The FF guys in the cen-div and great lakes divisions did it with there east/west chalange series. The FST guys are doing it with there Formula car magazine chalange series. I believe the NE vee guys do it with there big vee regional weekend. Fred Clark got his region to give the FV guys a whole weekend Plus a free test day only for FV's ( how cool was that). 130 cars and lots of track time. You guys have got to create your own space and the SCCA regions will react to you. If you only race at your home track and 3 or 4 cars come on a given weekend then you are doomed to short track time and run groups from hell.
Butch Deer

[butchdeer]

The varous SCCA regions are sensitive to car counts and with the cost of track rental,insurance and all the other costs associated with putting on a race I understand where this is coming from. I also understand that if you can produce a large number of entries in your class you can use this sensetivities to your advantage by leverageing the $$$ power of entries to get a region to give you favorible track time or run groups. The FF guys in the cen-div and great lakes divisions did it with there east/west chalange series. The FST guys are doing it with there Formula car magazine chalange series. I believe the NE vee guys do it with there big vee regional weekend. Fred Clark got his region to give the FV guys a whole weekend Plus a free test day only for FV's ( how cool was that). 130 cars and lots of track time. You guys have got to create your own space and the SCCA regions will react to you. If you only race at your home track and 3 or 4 cars come on a given weekend then you are doomed to short track time and run groups from hell.
Butch Deer

[Dmclellan]

interchange/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2416
In the Events News, Info & Results there is a thread about the Bob Scott Formula Car Racing Series.

[CitationFV21]

>>The varous SCCA regions are sensitive to car counts and with the cost of track rental<<

The NER Cheap Date weekend has been a great deal with a good turnout. MoHud tried a similar event last year and took a bath.

Timing is everything (no, not Timing and Scoring).

ChrisZ

[vreihen]

MoHud tried a similar event last year and took a bath.

Timing is everything (no, not Timing and Scoring).

Funny you should mention timing, because I heard through the grapevine that the primary cause of MoHud's loss at that event was due to a bad scheduling break at the NEDiv roundtable. MoHud's event was at Lime Rock, and scheduled for the weekend after an NNJR double regional event at Pocono.....

[butchdeer]

As Fv guys you can't depend on the regions to make things happen. You have to organize the people in the run group you would like to see and get them to turn out on a particular weekend. when you can assure a region of 15 Plus cars in your group you have some bargaining power for determining your race group, place on the schedule etc.
Butch

[JimR]

Tom Galuardi wrote> I used to be somewhat competitive, but for some reason every one else is going faster

Tom, are you sure you didn't slow down when you added that giant drag(ster) scoop to the back of your car. On camera it looks like a wind tunnel attached to your car. Sorry I couldn't help myself on this one. I am still willing to bring the saw to the next event.

On topic however, the Northeast at least generally does a good job attracting entries. FV fields remain strong and the closeness of the participants is evident both regionally and nationally. To a certain extent this tends to draw interest in the class and locally most regions (especially in my opinion the NER) work toward promoting a weekend that is enjoyed by all. Events have to more than just "the racing" to keep everyone coming back for more. My two cents.

Jim Regan

[maurus97]

Geez What a downer/depressing thread.