New HANS device info

[Daryl]

Jim,

I know that several things have been done to help reduce the likelyhood. I am not certain about the timeline but I know that they added the lips on the edge, changed the surface of the area the harnesses go over, revised the shoulder harness mounting instructions (3" max spacing between belts?) all in an effort to reduce the belt slippage issue. Harness manufacturers have come out with 2" wide shoulder harness straps so the belts are not predisposed to come off, some have made harness systems with shoulder harnesses both UNDER and OVER the HANS. So several things have been done, but to date the unit still does not capture the harnesses. By "capture" I mean that the harness straps are surrounded on all sides by the HANS so they can not come off.

[Dave]

There is a link on Apexspeed.com to the FIA web site with all the specifics on mounting your belt properly for use with the HANS device. Many factor come into play including the size of the HANS itself. If I get around to it I will post the link.

Dave

[SR Racing]

http://hansdevice.com/s.nl/sc.5/category.30/.f

Jim

[Dave]

http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/ ... _Guide.pdf

[hardingfv32-1]

Your belts, if properly installed, are not going to fall off a HANS when used with any current SCCA formula car. Your upper body just can not move that much side to side. I would say this is the case with all new racing seat systems used in sprints or stock cars. There is no lateral body motion.

No need for any dampers in the HANS system. You want your head to travel with and be controlled by the same forces as your body. Your belt system has some give built into it.

Brian

[Daryl]

Problem is we aren't talking about only modern formula cars or only fendered cars with the latest seats, proper belt spacing, right side nets, etc.

Ideally we want our head and our body to decelerate together. However that isn't going to happen. What we need to do is minimize the difference between the rates at which they decelarate. Deceleration of an object is better controled by a shock instead of a tether. The tether will have some yield, but the time between "starting to work" and "completely stretched" is much shorter than what can be controlled with a damper, anytime an object goes from a velocity x to a velocity Y in a shorter period of time it is subjected to higher forces.

[jpetillo]

I'm not sure we want our head and body to decelerate together. There's a balance, I believe. Assuming that it's the straps holding us in, we do want our head and body to accelerate together so that we don't hurt our necks. There doesn't seem to be a perfect solution for this, but the tethers help in this regard. But, we also want to limit the deceleration rate of our skulls to minimize brain injury, and the dampers will help here.

I think we could argue that the belts do have some give and that a concussion from the belts pulling on us and using stiff tethers in a neck restraint would not cause a brain injury in most cases. However, that doesn't mean that we couldn't still minimize the force on the brain with the use of dampers. To do the job, the damping may only be over 1/4" or perhaps much more or less, and could even be a tether that gives "slowly" after a certain force. Whatever it might be, properly designed damping should provide a benefit.

[hardingfv32-1]

There is no consideration of brain energy in the design of the HANS. The body and the neck must move as a unit to prevent neck injury. Adding a damper is not practical. How much distance is available for the damping function before you cause a neck injury, 2-3 inches? The F1 teams build their own HANS and have not gone this route. If you want damping, then look at the nose of your car.

Brian

[SR Racing]

The F1 teams build their own HANS and have not gone this route.
Brian

F1, FIA rules specifically state a HANS (c) device must be used and with no excuses. The rule was upheld by a challenge to the World Sports Council. Maybe you mean they modify the existing device?

Jim

[jpetillo]

There is no consideration of brain energy in the design of the HANS. The body and the neck must move as a unit to prevent neck injury.

I think we agree completely on that point.

Adding a damper is not practical. How much distance is available for the damping function before you cause a neck injury, 2-3 inches?

2-3" isn't practical, I agree, but perhaps 1/4" might do it, and that probably is practical.

The F1 teams build their own HANS and have not gone this route. If you want damping, then look at the nose of your car.

That will help, but that will probably be finished with it's damping chore before the straps and then tethers take hold. There's a timing issue that it would be helpful for us to understand better.

Whether we can damp by doing things in other places like with the nose of the car is good, but why not benefit from damping from wherever we can. I'll take a 1/4" of damping in the HANS if it's practical.

[Daryl]

The mass of our head/helmet combo and the small size (relative to the harness straps) of the HANS tethers probably allow for some amount of stretch in the HANS tethers as well. It is more a question of over how much distance or time does the dissipation of that energy take place. The HANS distance/time is shorter than the ISAAC. The longer (further) it takes to stop from a given speed the lower the force. Granted there is a limitation because we can not choose for our heads to stop 3 feet after our body no matter how slowly. The ISAAC designers state you can touch your chin to your chest and you aren't dead, so why not use up to that amount of distance to decelerate the head instead of an inch or so?

Merry Christmas! Hope Santa brings all of you some type of Head and Neck restraint if you currently are without.

[hardingfv32-1]

Jim

The F1 teams manufacture and have certified there own models for individual drivers. I don't know if the need permission from the original manufacture. They have to meet the FIA spec which is based on the original HANS. You have to use a unit that meets this spec, but not necessarily the original HANS. I assume that if the FI teams came up with something better that went beyond these specs that it would be approved. This is how I'm able to use a home made HANS. Checked with SCCA NAT office and they said anything beyond the specified safety requirements is fine. This does not preclude a pissing match with a local tech guy.

Brian

[Daryl]

The F1 teams manufacture and have certified there own models for individual drivers. I don't know if the need permission from the original manufacture.

An off the shelf HANS can't be ideal for every driver/chassis/restraint combination available. These teams have the resources to manufacturer to their own requirements and I am certain the HANS logo and name is licensed to these teams without a second thought...HANS gets to say "used by the best drivers in the World (F1)" when not a single F1 team uses an off the shelf HANS that you or I could buy.

[mysterian 44]

After reading all the replies on this post I was supprised to hear so much about the HANS device from so many people who do not use one. I was knocked out in a crash at the Glenn a few years ago and spent two hours in the trauma center at Elmyra N.Y. I now have a HANS device. To be honest I think the jaw area of my helmet hit the side bar and that is what knocked me out. I also believe that if I was wearing a HANS device it would have not made any difference because I was T-boned and the HANS is not designed to help in that type of impact. I still got one @ $1150.00 30degree. The bottom line is the HANS does one thing and one thing only. It keeps your head aligned with your shoulders and prevents the whiplash effect that causes basil skull injuries. That is what killed D.E. Since then I was tagged in the rear at the Glenn entering the back straight and on my in car film it was less than one second till I hit the Armco at about a 75 degree impact angle. I figure the speed was about 90-100mph. All I can say is I was glad I had the HANS on.
As far as use in the car, I previously wore a neck collar and it sucked. With the HANS I do not even know I have it on. Yes it can limit the amount you can turn your head, but since the T-bone accident my roll bars are padded with the expensive padding, not the cheap foam and I can barely turn my head any way. As far as getting in and out of the car I do not see where the HANS effects that in any way. It is a matter of getting your shoulder straps clear, HANS or not. Yes you need to bring your shoulder strap mounts in to 3 in. on center and it is best as Jim at SR said to get what is called a 3 inch to a 2 inch to a 3 inch mod to your shoulder straps. Safety Quip calls it a HANS mod for $15.00 and also puts some rubberized material on the 2 inch area. This coupled with the gripping area and knotch now on the device make it impossible to come off. Thats my 2 cents worth on the subject.
Bill Young. PS I have raced 2 seasons now with mine and the guy who T-boned me also got a HANS.

[Daryl]

After reading all the replies on this post I was supprised to hear so much about the HANS device from so many people who do not use one.

Maybe those of us who have done the most research into the purchase thought it best to buy something else.

It is no secret that I am not a big fan of HANS (the company and the device), however if the ISAAC didn't exist the choice would be pretty simple to me. Maybe before I am forced to buy something else ALL of my concerns about the HANS will be addressed.

I know this is an open wheel forum and the egress and belt slippage issues are mostly limited to the fendered folks (larger cockpit to flop around in and more obstacles to overcome getting out of the car). I am both, therefore egress is a concern of mine. Quick release tethers are now something that eliminates that concern. I've only known of one open wheel guy who was caught in his car by the HANS...it was a non-panic situation where the yoke got caught between the firewall and the head rest padding. It was only temporary and the driver was relieved it was in the paddock after a normal track session and not an emergency situation...the easy fix was to redesign the way the head rest padding was secured to the firewall.

Merry Christmas, I hope Santa brings you your favorite head and neck restraint.

[SR Racing]

Atlanta, Georgia (March 12, 2008) – Recently, allegations have been made that the HANS Device does not work in side angular impacts. This is simply not true. It is contrary to proven results. Such distortions confuse and deceive the racing public.

Independent testing, supported by General Motors Racing, Ford Racing, Dodge Motorsports and PPI Racing, has demonstrated that HANS Devices reduce maximum neck tensions by over 35% in 60-degree "side" impacts in a typical racecar set up (SAE Technical Paper Series 2004-01-3315.)

HANS Performance Products CEO Mark Stiles said, "We are not aware of any substantial independent side impact testing on products that try to compete against HANS Devices, but we have seen competitors continually try to deceive racers with marketing spin."

Stiles added, "SFI tests include a 30-degree "side" impact. The best performance we have seen reported by competitors here is 20% worse than we achieve with HANS Devices in recent tests."

He continued, "Representatives from HANS Performance Products, Hendricks, ISP and The Joie of Seating, did observe some 90-degree "side" impact testing conducted at the end of last year by Delphi for NASCAR. We all witnessed how the HANS Device worked as the tethers grabbed the helmet."

The best side impact performance is achieved with an SFI or FIA approved head and neck restraint, a good harness system, seats that have hip and shoulder support, and a lateral head support system. The latter can be built into the seat or achieved using special side nets.

FYI