Spec Tires

[Speedsport]

I am all in favor of a tire that will last 30 sessions. I just don't think it's possible to do so without ending up with a sticker advantage. Right now, with our current compound, there isn't much of an advantage to running them as stickers. A good scuff session leads to a tire consistant for most of it's life until it's out of rubber. Start playing with harder compounds and fresher tires will become a bigger factor...I'm almost sure of it.

I will speak with hoosier on the subject of making longer lasting tire. Just don't expect instant or significant results.

I am, however, against elimating tire contingencies. All sports reward winners, typically and unfortuantly at the cost of the loosers. I remember how great the feeling was when I was able to claim my first free tire for winning a national. I would not want to take that away from anyone. The next step will then be to make sure all the trophies are the same size....

[problemchild]

I am, however, against elimating tire contingencies. All sports reward winners, typically and unfortuantly at the cost of the loosers. I remember how great the feeling was when I was able to claim my first free tire for winning a national. I would not want to take that away from anyone. The next step will then be to make sure all the trophies are the same size....

Typical ....
The Regional guys and mid-pack National guys should buy tires for the Runoff contenders .... those superior human beings that they are

That's a great way to grow a class. Very few sports do reward the winners at the loser's expense. Is Blackjack a sport? If you truly think it is "unfortunate", then fix it! Didn't think so

With no alternative tire, we know which tire will win the runoffs,there is no reason to make sure that the top guys don't use a different brand. They won't. So, use that tire sponsorship budget to reduce the price of purchasing tires.

Note: I am not in favor of contingency programs but could live with them if people wanted them. I would rather lower tire prices.
Tire sponsorships are a completely different matter and will hopefully disappear with a single-brand tire.

[smsazzy]

I already volunteered. No one gave me the go ahead.

Page 3, May 16th.
"If the FV community gives me authority, I will negotiate with suppliers, test tires at my expense, and deliver a spec tire program to SCCA by Oct 1, 2012.
There would be no charge to SCCA or anybody else. I would absorb all costs."

Considering recent developments, this does not seem to be necassary. Merely, calling Hoosier, with a request from the FV community, to deal with some technical and non-technical issues, would be a great start. Get me the authority, and it would be my pleasure!

Who exactly are you seeking official approval from? Even if 20 people piped up on this internet forum and said "Yes" they still wouldn't qualify as a quorum of all FV drivers.

That's the role of the F/SR, CRB and BOD. If you want to bypass that avenue, then I'm not sure who you are seeking approval from. The handful of unique contributors to this thread do not represent the entire class.

[problemchild]

Who exactly are you seeking official approval from? Even if 20 people piped up on this internet forum and said "Yes" they still wouldn't qualify as a quorum of all FV drivers.

That's the role of the F/SR, CRB and BOD. If you want to bypass that avenue, then I'm not sure who you are seeking approval from. The handful of unique contributors to this thread do not represent the entire class.

So ... you just want to sit around, leave it to SCCA, and let FV fade away?

The FV community can have polls, write petitions, write letters, preferably in organized fashion to convey the community's best interests to Hoosier so that we can work with them to improve Fv and prepare us for the future. It has nothing to do with SCCA. I'm trying to do my best, having offered to put financial and time resources into it ..... but everything I try and get going gets poo-pooed by a small group of negative-thinking people trying to protect their own tire deals or work in the SCCA system designed specifically to protect its aging membership from any meaningful change!

Michael or any of the Steves are capable of generating the support to make it happen, more so, if they work together. Forget about spending time and money on the damn pistons and get on with working with tire companies for a FV tire package for the 21st century!

[smsazzy]

Forget about spending time and money on the damn pistons and get on with working with tire companies for a FV tire package for the 21st century!

We have tires. We're almost out of (legal) pistons and cylinders.

Why don't you actually get the ball rolling and then get back to us. Let us know what Hoosier has for ideas after you speak with them. We'll check back here for an update on your progress. People aren't going to throw their support behind something that isn't spelled out.

Get a commitment to a solid product and you'll have the people behind you in no time. Throwing out overly simplistic explanations and then appointing others to do all the work will get you nowhere. As will accusing people on the internet of wanting to kill the class simply because they don't agree with your recommended action.

[Mystique Racing]

I am all in favor of a tire that will last 30 sessions. I just don't think it's possible to do so without ending up with a sticker advantage. Right now, with our current compound, there isn't much of an advantage to running them as stickers. A good scuff session leads to a tire consistant for most of it's life until it's out of rubber. Start playing with harder compounds and fresher tires will become a bigger factor...I'm almost sure of it.

Michael,

There already is a FV racing slick that will last 20-25 heat cycles with little, to no, degradation. We have been using them for years. Could there be a sticker advantage? I have not seen it in my experience but maybe...... lets say that there is a sticker advantage for arguments sake, lets say it is .5 seconds per lap. I don't really care. Your motor is probably 1 second a lap faster then mine. The people that have the $$$ will always have an advantage, I fully accept that. The point is that we need to get people out racing.

The bottom line, and the point that most of you keep missing is, that a tire that last 20-25 cycles helps average Joe racer.

Joe feels good about racing in FV because he knows that he can buy a set of tires for $450.00 that will last 20-25 cycles. For many racers that is a whole season of racing.

Additionally, Joe is really happy because he can still turn pretty competitive lap times on his 18 heat cycle tires.

As long as Hoosier is the "spec" tire for FV it does nothing to grow the class IMHO. Thank god the SF region was smart enough to see that and implement a great spec tire rule.

[smsazzy]

Scott,

There is absolutely no way that American Racer could support the nation for FV. They lack the distribution infrastructure, at treack support and most likely the production capacity. Plus, the tire sucks.

I would much rather look to Hoosier or Goodyear to make a custom spec tire for us than to go the AR route.

[Mystique Racing]

Steve,

You are correct about the supply issue, however, the tire doesn't suck........ you national guys put on those sticky Hoosiers and get spoiled.

Point is that if American Racer can build a long lasting, consistent, tire then so can Hoosier and/or Goodyear, or ???????

[tiagosantos]

It's exactly because the American Racers exist that I believe Hoosier could easily come out with something similar in concept, but better in execution.

edit: yeah, what Scott said, the point is Hoosier is light years ahead of American Racer in tire technology and design, manufacturing, distribution, support, etc. If American Racer managed to create a "good" spec tire all those years ago, I'm sure Hoosier could come up with something better. A tire that will easily last a whole season for most people, doesn't leak 1psi/hr, doesn't need 9 degrees of rear camber..

[Mystique Racing]

A tire that will easily last a whole season for most people, doesn't leak 1psi/hr, doesn't need 9 degrees of rear camber..

Your Only running 9 degrees................ 12 would be faster

[GrapeFarmerAl]

A monopoly is when a single firm produces a product, in this case a tire, that is unique and there is no substitute. They are the price makers, in that they control the entire supply side of the market. With a lack of competition, the pricing structure is set by the monopoly and is not necessarily at a marginal cost over production cost. There are inefficiencies in monopolies in that they can artificially control the supply and the quality. They can also make large production runs to minimize their costs and stockpile the inventory, knowing that they will sell all that is produced no matter how long the inventory sits.

It sounds like we have a spec tire by default, but at what cost. We, as the Formula Vee community, are not the ones that set the spec tire conditions.

Let’s hope, that Hoosier has our best interests at heart……

It would be nice to think the contingency program would continue, but what incentive does Hoosier have. It was always half what Goodyear, the competition, provided. I say let the tire cntingency go away and tire issues will be shared by everyone...

[SR Racing]

A monopoly is when a single firm produces a product, in this case a tire, that is unique and there is no substitute.

You are correct in what you say, but what also should be included is that " where there are barriers to market entry." ( Large capital costs, legal issues, patents, etc.)
This doesn't really apply to the tire market IMO. Any of a dozen companies could start making FV tires IF they saw a long term market and margin for them. That (again IMO) is the issue with FV tires. A couple hundred tires a year (and dropping) is not a lot of motive to stay or enter the market by more than one or two companies. That being said, Hoosier (or whoever ramains) will margin their tires to maximize profits WITHOUT making it too attractive for another company to enter. If they for example doubled their price (and they sold) others would enter.

IF you specify a SPEC tire, then the manufacture really has a monopoly. (At least to the terms of contract etc. if one existed.)

Hoosier has been good to the grassroots racer for many years. I don't expect them to rip anyone, but they are certainly business people and will use normal supply and demand pricing structures. One of the things they will be looking at is current and potential sales. 1. The class is not growing, 2. A tire that lasts longer will not increase sales. There is not much to keep anyone real interested in these tires.

[GrapeFarmerAl]

Jim,

We're on the same page and I agree that if Hoosier doubled their price, it could look attractive to another tire company, unless the potential profits from a limited market didn't offset the cost to go into production.

[MarkP-2]

Al,

I wouldn't be surprised if Hoosier introduces a 10% price increase before next year. I wouldn't blame them for
the decision since it makes good business sense for them now that Goodyear is out of the equation.

Mark

[SR Racing]

Actually, we might expect a bit more. It has been 5 to 8% for the last 5+ years. That was mostly due to oil energy costs.

[Greg Davis]

Has anyone participating on this thread had any conversation(s) with anyone at Hoosier about this issue? I'd like to know if they are even aware of the concerns of the Vee community concerning a long lasting spec tire. If they are good businessmen, they will realize that if class participation increases because of lower tire costs per individual during a season, their bottom line might just go up. If Vee goes away because of escalating costs they won't be able to sell tires to anyone.
Also, I believe in the original proposition of this class - that of a closely controlled formula that limits expenditure and emphasizes driver ability versus having a big wallet. A long lasting spec tire would be true to that concept and would hopefully bring about increased participation.

[jpetillo]

Has anyone participating on this thread had any conversation(s) with anyone at Hoosier about this issue? I'd like to know if they are even aware of the concerns of the Vee community concerning a long lasting spec tire. If they are good businessmen, they will realize that if class participation increases because of lower tire costs per individual during a season, their bottom line might just go up. If Vee goes away because of escalating costs they won't be able to sell tires to anyone.
Also, I believe in the original proposition of this class - that of a closely controlled formula that limits expenditure and emphasizes driver ability versus having a big wallet. A long lasting spec tire would be true to that concept and would hopefully bring about increased participation.

Greg, both Goodyear and Hoosier had been contacted several months ago and they are well aware. Unfortunately, the survey results indicated that class participation would not change significantly if we had a spec tire. John