Spec Tires

[problemchild]

I do agree with Greg that those in favor should write the CRB and express frustration that they did not at least ask for member input and instead just dismissed our request.

I never said that. The CRB does not give a damn. I said "write the BOD and demand that SCCA let FV select a spec tire and get it in service ASAP".

[tiagosantos]

Why do spec tires (and more often than not, treaded tires) work for FV everywhere else in the world other than the US?

[problemchild]

Ignorance then arrogance.

In the modern world, virtually every form of racing uses a spec tire. SCCA club racing is the exception. While this may be necassary in some classes because of different cars and tire availability, it certainly is not necassary in many of the classes with very restricted rules. People that repeatedly come on here and say spec tires don't work, and have never worked, are just plain wrong. It is just one reason that SCCA, as we know it, is in big trouble, and must evolve into a different organization if it is to survive more than a few years. The idea that some collection of officials can tell 70% of a 50 yr old class, that their request for rule upgrades, will not even be discussed, can not illustrate this point more vividly. Much easier to let FV fade away ...

The FV community needs to take back the responsibility for the class's survival and prepare for the evolving SCCA or other organizations that emerge, much like FF and F2000, where SCCA is adopting rule changes which were developed by their communities, outside of the SCCA process.

[fvracer27]

Ignorance then arrogance.

So you saying everyone that does not agree with a Spec tire is Ignorant and arrogant? Now making claims about people you do not even know because they do not agree with your statements.

In the modern world, virtually every form of racing uses a spec tire. SCCA club racing is the exception.

Do you have any clue what some of these series pay for spec tires and how long they last?
Rolex GT which a close very close friend of mine is car chief on and I quote " little over 2k per set of tires they used 26 sets during the 24 weekend" I'll do the math for the "ignorant people" Thats $52,000.00 and yet I used a calculator because I can't do math

I realize we are not running a 24 hour race but do you really think it cost over $500.00 per tire to make them?

Ask a FE owner how much he pays for those fancy FE parts with a stupid enterprise sticker that inflates the price by 20% and I know this as a fact.
And FE tires cost less than FV tires why? You think FE guys get 15+ heat cycles on a set? NO! They are cheaper because they sell more tires. If someone made a Spec tire that last longer you think the tires would be cheaper?

While we are at it you want to spec the fuel so we have to purchase it at a premium say $8.00 a gallon so I can not run my $6.00 AV or so the guy on a budget can't run $4.00 pump gas?

[smsazzy]

I do agree with Greg that those in favor should write the CRB and express frustration that they did not at least ask for member input and instead just dismissed our request.

I never said that. The CRB does not give a damn. I said "write the BOD and demand that SCCA let FV select a spec tire and get it in service ASAP".

My apologies Greg, even when I try to agree with you I do it wrong. I'm pretty sure everyone knew what I was trying to say.

[tiagosantos]

Oh come on Mark. Let's compare engine budgets to F1 while we're at it. Tire manufacturers aren't idiots, neither are all of us. Spec tires are created or chosen depending on the class fundamentals and the objectives for having a spec tire.

Ask your Rolex GT buddy what would happen if they could run whatever tires they wanted. Probably not a whole lot of a difference for them, since the spec tire was chosen to ensure comparability and not money or durability reasons. Also ask your buddy how much he charges for a seat at the Daytona 24h, suddenly the tires aren't that big a deal.

What do you think would happen in F1 if tires were open? Think Spec Miata guys spend a lot of tires? Imagine what would happen if they could run whatever they wanted!

While I imagine that it might not just AS simple as Greg is implying, I don't see why we can't even get some sort of "official" reaction from the tire companies. I guess the quick and big fat NO from SCCA doesn't help.

[fvracer27]

Oh come on Mark. Let's compare engine budgets to F1 while we're at it. Tire manufacturers aren't idiots, neither are all of us. Spec tires are created or chosen depending on the class fundamentals and the objectives for having a spec tire.

Its been pointed out that some of us are ignorant. I was not comparing FV to GT I was making the point that they all run a spec tire and do not have a choice they pay over $500.00 a tire! Do you think they cost $500 to produce and to make a profit?

Ask your Rolex GT buddy what would happen if they could run whatever tires they wanted. Probably not a whole lot of a difference for them, since the spec tire was chosen to ensure comparability and not money or durability reasons. Also ask your buddy how much he charges for a seat at the Daytona 24h, suddenly the tires aren't that big a deal.

Exactly they charge according to the cost to run the race. $52,000.00 just for tires!

What do you think would happen in F1 if tires were open? Think Spec Miata guys spend a lot of tires? Imagine what would happen if they could run whatever they wanted!

If F1 had open tires it would be just like there engines that's why I do not compare our SCCA club racing to something like that. How much do Spec miata tires cost? How many cycles do they get before the top National drivers buy new sets because everyone is always comparing to National. I'm willing to be there are miata guys that get a season out of there tires just like regional FV guys and I bet there are some that say the tires are good for X amount.

While I imagine that it might not just AS simple as Greg is implying, I don't see why we can't even get some sort of "official" reaction from the tire companies. I guess the quick and big fat NO from SCCA doesn't help.

Thats the point it's not that simple and I agree a official statement giving the reasons for the decision.

Like I said before I'm not for against a spec tire I just know it's complicated and having run in many karting classes with spec tires I know it has not been the most pleasant experience so I would really want this thought out before something is changed because a select few feel the need to drill it into every "ignorant or arrogant persons" head that spec tires are the way to go. They maybe but there is no need to scare people into it bay saying FV is dying because of tires and blah blah blah. Racing on a club level is dying for many reasons.

[problemchild]

Oh come on Mark. Let's compare engine budgets to F1 while we're at it. Tire manufacturers aren't idiots, neither are all of us. Spec tires are created or chosen depending on the class fundamentals and the objectives for having a spec tire.

Tiago's response would be typical of what most rational independantly-thinking reasonably-intelligent people would conclude.
If someone reaches a different conclusion, one would assume they were ignorant of all the info that went into the conclusion.
If someone refuses to listen to all the info that went into that logical conclusion, and consider it fairly, then it's arrogance.

It is so frustrating to see people who refuse to help themselves Thirty yrs ago, most racing had open tires. Now, most racing has spec'd tires. One would conclude that most racing has progressed, much like most of the world accepts that our world is not flat, digital is better than analog, color is preferable to B&W, laser is preferable to dot-matrix, etc.

I am not, by any means, pushing the F1200 tire package. I think it is too much for FV people to tackle. However ..... just think what it would be like if you could start the season with no tire expense. Zero! Nil! Nothing! You bought 4 $75 tires last April. You got them mounted and balanced ..... then nothing. No flipping. No remounting. No balancing. Just start the season with 15 other cars, of whom only the newbies have had to buy tires. Wear so insignificant that you may never need to replace them. Money for entries, engine work, hotels, etc ..... maybe beer or shoes for your kids! Eliminating tire expense literally makes F1200 the cheapest Formula car class on the planet ................. Awesome! It's reality.

[smsazzy]

Oh come on Mark. Let's compare engine budgets to F1 while we're at it. Tire manufacturers aren't idiots, neither are all of us. Spec tires are created or chosen depending on the class fundamentals and the objectives for having a spec tire.

Tiago's response would be typical of what most rational independantly-thinking reasonably-intelligent people would conclude.
If someone reaches a different conclusion, one would assume they were ignorant of all the info that went into the conclusion.
If someone refuses to listen to all the info that went into that logical conclusion, and consider it fairly, then it's arrogance.

It is so frustrating to see people who refuse to help themselves Thirty yrs ago, most racing had open tires. Now, most racing has spec'd tires. One would conclude that most racing has progressed, much like most of the world accepts that our world is not flat, digital is better than analog, color is preferable to B&W, laser is preferable to dot-matrix, etc.

I am not, by any means, pushing the F1200 tire package. I think it is too much for FV people to tackle. However ..... just think what it would be like if you could start the season with no tire expense. Zero! Nil! Nothing! You bought 4 $75 tires last April. You got them mounted and balanced ..... then nothing. No flipping. No remounting. No balancing. Just start the season with 15 other cars, of whom only the newbies have had to buy tires. Wear so insignificant that you may never need to replace them. Money for entries, engine work, hotels, etc ..... maybe beer or shoes for your kids! Eliminating tire expense literally makes F1200 the cheapest Formula car class on the planet ................. Awesome! It's reality.

Maybe cost isn't the only factor for those who disagree. If cost was all that mattered KIA would be the only car manufacturer.

I'm not saying that's a majority, but chalking it up to ignorance/arrogance is very narrow minded. Everyone has their reasons for being pro or against any proposal. Why don't we have spec manifolds? That would have been more cost effective too. (I don't want to re-hash this debate, just making a point).

Despite the CRB not asking for input, I think we should all send in our opinions either for or against and let them see how big of an issue this really is to us as a class.

Also, don't let this disuade you from replying to the request for comment re: weight. They did ask for our comment on that.

[tiagosantos]

You're just jealous that called ME intelligent

[Ed Womer]

After talking the Womer factory driver, Dean Curtis, it appears as this spec tire issue is a moot point since Goodyear did not make any tires so as soon as the left over tires are gone everyone will be on Hoosiers, hence a spec tire class. I still have some Goodyears mounted on wheels if anyone is interested.
Ed

[craigs]

One of the things I can't get over is that the most comparable examples (no Grand Am, F1, Indy, Nascar) use spec tires that were already in existence and then picked up by the class.

I believe:
San Fran region used an off the shelf AR Racing tire.
Spec miata uses an off the shelf (but re-badged) R6.
Canadian FV uses an off the shelf Falken.
FST uses at least an off the shelf compound and maybe size

I don't see where there is precedent for tire companies successfully developing new spec tires for lower level racing. If we follow the path of San Fran, SM, Canada, FST then we would select the R55/60, R45, or AR (assuming new wheels are out and Goodyear is out based Ed's post). These are the only off the shelf available options.

I agree that we should contact Hoosier on new development, but what is in it for them? Will they sell more tires? Will their profit margins increase?

Even if we don't implement or even further investigate a spec tire we should as a class (single voice) develop a relationship with Hoosier as partners. Their long term success in producing tires in this size depends on FV. What are the long term desires of FV, Hoosier's customer, and how do they plan on meeting or exceeding those expectations? It would be great if we had a small group that could meet, on a re-occurring basis, with Hoosier to help translate our needs as a class and ensure that Hoosier's vision addresses those needs.

Thanks,

Craig

[Ed Womer]

Input back from Dean is that Goodyear bean counters decided that there weren't enought sales in FV so they decided to not make tires. Man am I glad I stopped racing becuase the call to Goodyear isn't needed after 30 years of racing on Goodyears and WTF are they thinking!
Ed
What are you going to do Stevan?

[MarkP-2]

Ed:

He's fast even on the Fred Flinstone Veerocks available at your nearby Barney Rubble dealerships.

[problemchild]

I agree that we should contact Hoosier on new development, but what is in it for them? Will they sell more tires? Will their profit margins increase?

Even if we don't implement or even further investigate a spec tire we should as a class (single voice) develop a relationship with Hoosier as partners. Their long term success in producing tires in this size depends on FV. What are the long term desires of FV, Hoosier's customer, and how do they plan on meeting or exceeding those expectations? It would be great if we had a small group that could meet, on a re-occurring basis, with Hoosier to help translate our needs as a class and ensure that Hoosier's vision addresses those needs.

Thanks,

Craig

Hoosier is a small company, very flexible, and have people tuned in to our racing. Tire production is in very short cycles, by manufacturing terms, because they don't want to have hundreds of obsolete tires in inventory when competition demands a new tweek. The Runoffs are a significant time in their production scheduling. That is why it is very important that we express our desires for a detuned tire ASAP. That way, they can make sure they plan production levels to cover the Runoffs and not all of 2013.

I know that the 60A FF tire used as spec tire in FST, CF, and some FF, has construction costs that are less than their open tires. I presume much of that is cost of materials used. Between lower construction costs, and a commitment from different groups to use them, they have been selling them at significantly less cost than their open tires. Hoosier is absolutely the most capable of servicing the needs of FV racers. They understand that healthy classes make for long-term tire sales. We just need to make them understand that the time for this to happen is NOW!

[hardingfv32-1]

So with Goodyear gone, does this change the spec tire discussion?

Could this allow Hoosier to raise prices?

Brian

[problemchild]

This may be the perfect scenario.

Goodyear fades away. Hoosier detunes their tire so that it is still faster than AR or Falkens, and lasts much longer with minimal degradation. If they eliminate tire sponsorships, they can likely drop the price by $100 set. With no fear of obsolescence, they can schedule their production for longer runs, thereby reducing cost. Presumably they can save some money on construction materials/procedures too. After initial development, very liitle in development costs. Hoosier could likely make more profit while knocking 10-20% of the average racer's purchase price for a set of FV tires.

Of course, we need to request they limit supply to one size front and one size rear (bigger the better .... maybe 23.0), to again reduce their cost, our cost, and help other issues by reducing rpm.

Don't you love those people that love Hoosier and their product, but think they are waiting to screw us first chance they get.

[hardingfv32-1]

So what is the plan? Is someone going to approach Hoosier about only providing a harder compound, say R60? Who could represent FV in this case?

Brian

[fvracer27]

There is no plan that's the problem

I don't think it's as easy as its been made out to be.

[smsazzy]

So what is the plan? Is someone going to approach Hoosier about only providing a harder compound, say R60? Who could represent FV in this case?

Brian

The R55 and the R60 are the exact same compound now.

[problemchild]

We don't need to tell them to make us a harder tire.
We tell them what our objectives are, (more cycles before wearing out, minimal degradation over x cycles, standard sizing, etc) and we let them build us a tire. They know best what compound and construction will best meet performance and cost objectives! They will likely evolve their current product, perhaps subtly over time. They are the experts.
Stephen would be a perfect representative. One of the other Steves, perhaps the one with the long-term Hoosier relationship, or anyone with a phone, can handle it. We just need to back him up.
Non-technical issues should be discussed, like requesting the elimination of tire sponsorships and continguencies .... giving every competitor the same, lowest price ...... and making this happen ASAP.
Get R done!

[smsazzy]

We don't need to tell them to make us a harder tire.
We tell them what our objectives are, (more cycles before wearing out, minimal degradation over x cycles, standard sizing, etc) and we let them build us a tire. They know best what compound and construction will best meet performance and cost objectives! They will likely evolve their current product, perhaps subtly over time. They are the experts.
Stephen would be a perfect representative. One of the other Steves, perhaps the one with the long-term Hoosier relationship, or anyone with a phone, can handle it. We just need to back him up.
Non-technical issues should be discussed, like requesting the elimination of tire sponsorships and continguencies .... giving every competitor the same, lowest price ...... and making this happen ASAP.
Get R done!

Instead of volunteering others, why don't you step up and do it yourself? Stop ranting on the internet and do something. You are obviously the most passionate one regarding the subject. If you want spec tires, step up and do something. Stop telling others to do it for you.

[problemchild]

I already volunteered. No one gave me the go ahead.

Page 3, May 16th.
"If the FV community gives me authority, I will negotiate with suppliers, test tires at my expense, and deliver a spec tire program to SCCA by Oct 1, 2012.
There would be no charge to SCCA or anybody else. I would absorb all costs."

Considering recent developments, this does not seem to be necassary. Merely, calling Hoosier, with a request from the FV community, to deal with some technical and non-technical issues, would be a great start. Get me the authority, and it would be my pleasure!

[fvracer27]

I already volunteered. No one gave me the go ahead.

Page 3, May 16th.
"If the FV community gives me authority, I will negotiate with suppliers, test tires at my expense, and deliver a spec tire program to SCCA by Oct 1, 2012.
There would be no charge to SCCA or anybody else. I would absorb all costs."
Considering recent developments, this does not seem to be necassary. Merely, calling Hoosier, with a request from the FV community, to deal with some technical and non-technical issues, would be a great start. Get me the authority, and it would be my pleasure!

A spec tire that

Lasts longer
cost less
fits current rims
and is still a racing tire not some street tire

I think you could get support but I believe we already have that with a R55 just cut the cost of that tire (maybe eliminating the sponsorships and contingencies will work, I'm not sure) I just don't see how our little slicks cost more that a FE slick that is twice as wide.

[problemchild]

Lasts longer
cost less
fits current rims
and is still a racing tire not some street tire

Yes, and with minimal degradation(loss of performance) through first 12-15 cycles.
Wear and degradation has to be without flipping tires on wheels every other session.