Spec Tires

[fvracer27]

Brian says to write the CRB and ask them to reconsider. Follow the system. Well, the system has failed FV. We need the BOD to step in and get things done. ASAP! NOW! No time to waste! Write the BOD and demand action!

So everyone that all ready voiced there opinion has to re send in there demand because a few people do not like the decision? If anything maybe a little clearer explanation should be giving. I have followed these spec tire posts on both forums and it seems to be the same 5 or 6 people posting for a spec tire and at lease half of them don't even run a FV they run a FST or in the Canadian series. Does it matter to those people what happens in FV? Post about your own issues in your class. All this does is make everyone think that FV is fighting over a stupid tire rule which I don't believe is the case I think it's everyone else trying to convince FV to be another class.

Please don't take this the wrong way Greg but how much can we beat this to death? I don't really care weather we have a spec tire or not and I do not believe it's the reason numbers are down. I agree tire prices are a crazy but I can tell you I have run on spec tires and I can 100% say it DOES NOT save anyone money period. It may save the 15 guys in canada money because they all agree to run the tires for 15 years or 300 heat cycles. Once you have something like this with a few hundred drivers there will be a few that will pay to get that tires sweet spot, weather that sweet spot is #5 heat cycle or #25 heat cycle they will pay and if the tires are better when they are shaved they will pay. So you buy a full tread tire and shave half the rubber off at a extra cost use them until they fall off. What if at that point the tire is only fast for 3 cycles? Then what? The reason the canadian tires get better the longer they run is because there less flex in the thread as it wears down so some will not wait to wear the tires the will shave them.


The spec tire thing can go in many directions and making a quick decision I do not think is the best way to handle it nor do I think posting all kinds of things that can mislead people in thinking Spec tire is the way to go, it may be but it may not be as well.

For the FST drivers and the Canadian drivers I like both series and would love to try each someday but you guys have to realize it's not easy for someone to switch when they have great racing in FV at least this is the way it is for me and I can't speak for everyone. I have never seen a FST and I'm not going to build or buy one and run alone I would rather do something else with my time, if there were a few maybe my view would change. Candian series I would love to go up to Canada because I miss running at Mosport and I miss visiting Canada I enjoy it. I may buy a set of tires and wheels just to do it.

I gues I will wait now until someone from another class bashes me now

[problemchild]

Quick decision?

Canadian FV racers realized that open tires on FV was a stupid idea in the 70s when it became apparent that buying tires every weekend was the thing to do. By 1980, they had found a suitable tire and wheel, tested them, and made them mandatory for 1981. That was over 30 years ago.

No one can accuse the FV community of rushing into spec tires. The FV community should have demanded them 25-30 years ago, just as we should have made rules to control shock technology, and front end machine work. That stuff cannot be undone, but having Hoosier or Goodyear slightly detune their existing product to fit on the current 15" wheels as a spec tire, is something that can be done immediately. ASAP! NOW! No it probably won't be as good as $75 Falkens on custom wheels, but it will be a lot better than open tires.

We have 4 FV people on the BOD and the power and influence that their years of service will bring. Tell them to call in favors, bully people, trade favors, do whatever it takes ...... get it done and get it done SOON!

[fvracer27]

Quick decision?

Canadian FV racers realized that open tires on FV was a stupid idea in the 70s when it became apparent that buying tires every weekend was the thing to do. By 1980, they had found a suitable tire and wheel, tested them, and made them mandatory for 1981. That was over 30 years ago.

No one can accuse the FV community of rushing into spec tires. The FV community should have demanded them 25-30 years ago, just as we should have made rules to control shock technology, and front end machine work. That stuff cannot be undone, but having Hoosier or Goodyear slightly detune their existing product to fit on the current 15" wheels as a spec tire, is something that can be done immediately. ASAP! NOW! No it probably won't be as good as $75 Falkens on custom wheels, but it will be a lot better than open tires.

We have 4 FV people on the BOD and the power and influence that their years of service will bring. Tell them to call in favors, bully people, trade favors, do whatever it takes ...... get it done and get it done SOON!

I agree maybe having Hoosier or Goodyear detune their product would be great and help everyone but why would they?

They will compete against each other to make a better time so more racers will buy there tire.

I was told Goodyear is not making FV tires anymore which helps the issue because we could just demand Hoosier to detune there tire but again why would they? they are in the business to sell tires not make them last.

The only easy way is to make a 55 the spec and try to get the price down, How I have no clue I don't think it's possible with only having 1 tire to choose from.

Didn't they have a 60 or 65 at 1 point?

I'm willing to bet a good portion of FV drivers do not want to run on street tires nor will they want to be stuck with 12+ useless FV wheels if another wheel was the choice.

I don't think it's a easy as your stating. Maybe I know nothing maybe I'm missing something

[problemchild]

Hoosier makes all kind of spec tires for many classes including FF, CF, and FST. As pointed out here many times, it is not necassary that we select an existing tire. The experts at Hoosier (or Goodyear) could revise their spec in 5 mins to take off 2% of performamnce and add x% durability, or 3% performance for y% durability, etc. Track testing would be a formality, more for our benefit than theirs. It is that easy. If we were a business with a leader, instead of a dying club, a 5 minute phone call would solve the issue once and for all. The people at both Hoosier and Goodyear are great people and know their business very well. To say that they would screw this up, or screw us, is just plain nonsense.

[problemchild]

As suggested in my previous response, we need a single person to make a deal with someone, NOW! ASAP!

We should just give someone that responsibility. Give them the support to spend that 5 mins and move this forward. I personally do not care who as long as they are not a current tire dealer.

Michael Varacins would be the perfect person to make the selection. All in favor?

[SR Racing]

Michael Varacins would be the perfect person to make the selection. All in favor?

Jump right on that Mike...

[P-2 Mark]

Greg,

As much as I share your passion for a "spec tire" and appreciate your efforts to get it considered, I was really disappointed
by the way our, meaning the FV class in general had their survey responded to by the board. Many people (+200) responded
to the survey, either for or against and our opinions were pretty much ignored after very little consideration of the survey
by very few individuals. I have no faith that we'll get any appreciable change made in our class with the current crop of
SCCA members who make up the board, and can ignore our requests, no matter how large our numbers. It's become the
minority ruling over the much larger majority and failing to seriously consider our requests.This feeling has led me to not
even bother with the "weight" survey that's been floating around because I feel it will end up in the same trash bin as
the tire survey results.

Good luck!

Mark

92' Protoform P-1/05

[problemchild]

Greg,

As much as I share your passion for a "spec tire" and appreciate your efforts to get it considered, I was really disappointed
by the way our, meaning the FV class in general had their survey responded to by the board. Many people (+200) responded
to the survey, either for or against and our opinions were pretty much ignored after very little consideration of the survey
by very few individuals. I have no faith that we'll get any appreciable change made in our class with the current crop of
SCCA members who make up the board, and can ignore our requests, no matter how large our numbers. It's become the
minority ruling over the much larger majority and failing to seriously consider our requests.This feeling has led me to not
even bother with the "weight" survey that's been floating around because I feel it will end up in the same trash bin as
the tire survey results.

Good luck!

Mark

92' Protoform P-1/05

Where would America be today if people did not stand up to the establishment and demand change?
Even after making positive changes to the class, it will take many years to convince young people that "it is not their grandfathers FV" and that it is the only low-cost formula class for "regular" people to fulfill their interest in racing cars. We have to make the positive change and then we have to sell it. Otherwise, its just a bunch of old white guys with their motorhomes, enclosed trailers, and $30K FVs spending $800/weekend on tires and pretending they're 30-year-old regular Joes, .... racing as long as they can pass their medicals.
Making FV the obvious low-cost formula car option is where it starts. Spec tires need to happen. Every year delayed, just delays the revival.

[tiagosantos]

I agree with Greg on a number of arguments, but this spec tire thing will never happen. It's a cultural issue, which I can't blame on anyone - the US is built on a culture of being the biggest, the best, the fastest, the highest, whatever. Yes, spec tires can be as complicated as anything, but they can also be a very simple thing. It's not the concept, it's who implements it and who participates that makes it a mess.

You're right, the Canadian series' in the East, despite being a pretty serious championship with lots of cars and stiff competition, is run on some sort of gentlemen' agreement to not bother shaving tires or heat cycling tires to the sweet spot, to save everyone (lots of) money. I'd find it insulting if someone told me I couldn't possibly hold an agreement, but like I said, it's just a cultural thing. The US is made of people who want to succeed at all costs (no pun intended!), Canada is made up of pansy hippies Peace and Love!


On a more serious note, I believe the reason the Eastern Canadian series' work with the "gentleman's agreement" is that the lap time penalty for not running shaved, heat cycled street tires is much smaller than not running fairly fresh FV slicks. Saving a few grand a year and giving up a couple tenths a lap would be OK for a lot of people. With our current tires, saving a few grand a year means giving up quite a few tenths. I could be wrong, it's happened before!

[tiagosantos]

By the way - the reason people from other countries (well, Canada..) CARE about what happens in SCCA is pretty simple. On the West Coast, our rules mimic the SCCA rules exactly. So whatever happens (or doesn't) to FV in SCCA, affects us directly. And on the whole country, there are racers (like me) who want to race with SCCA as well as our own local series'.

For me, I'd just like it to be as affordable as possible, so I can do more of it. On the Pacific North West, no one runs Regionals in FV. There are usually 5-10 cars in Nationals, as far as I can tell. Here's my little estimated budget for the Seattle Rational race that I'm planning to run in a couple weeks:

Engine/car wear, spares fund, etc - $250
Entry fees - $395 (double regional.. the dbl national is a little over $500)
Gas - $75? Haven't actually done the math with the current prices lol
Towing 4 hours each way across the border - $250?
Food - $40
New set of tires - $800

No money spent on accommodation, I'll sleep in the back of the truck. So the total comes out to $1010 without new tires, $1810 with new tires. I shouldn't have added it up, cause I'm honestly reconsidering the whole thing right now, this is idiotic. I could fly to Portugal and see my parents for less money than that.

[jpetillo]

Tiago,

I like your view of us folks in the US, seriously, it was a good read - I enjoyed it.

My recommendation is to try borrowing a set of tires for your West Coast adventure. I'm sure there are a handful of people willing to lend you a set. They really don't last only one weekend, as unpopular as that is to say. Or consider buying some used tires. You would be amazed at the prices at times, and oftentimes free. A lot of us get our tires this way - used. I won't make the mistake of suggesting that you could be competitive regionally, since that's also not popular to say online (but true). I've been running used tires for years, and every now and then buy a new set of my own. Don't let the secret out, and don't tell anyone that I told you - I'll get flamed!

Oh, and enjoy yourself. John

[Rolling Stone]

I agree with Greg on a number of arguments, but this spec tire thing will never happen. It's a cultural issue, which I can't blame on anyone - the US is built on a culture of being the biggest, the best, the fastest, the highest, whatever. Yes, spec tires can be as complicated as anything, but they can also be a very simple thing. It's not the concept, it's who implements it and who participates that makes it a mess.

You're right, the Canadian series' in the East, despite being a pretty serious championship with lots of cars and stiff competition, is run on some sort of gentlemen' agreement to not bother shaving tires or heat cycling tires to the sweet spot, to save everyone (lots of) money. I'd find it insulting if someone told me I couldn't possibly hold an agreement, but like I said, it's just a cultural thing. The US is made of people who want to succeed at all costs (no pun intended!), Canada is made up of pansy hippies Peace and Love!
Pansy Hippies sure beats being Gun-Toting,bible thumping rednecks

On a more serious note, I believe the reason the Eastern Canadian series' work with the "gentleman's agreement" is that the lap time penalty for not running shaved, heat cycled street tires is much smaller than not running fairly fresh FV slicks. Saving a few grand a year and giving up a couple tenths a lap would be OK for a lot of people. With our current tires, saving a few grand a year means giving up quite a few tenths. I could be wrong, it's happened before!

[problemchild]

WTF is this gentleman's agreement you're talking about?

If anybody would shave tires, it would be our team. We don't because it would be a waste of time. Our car's have every legal trick that I think is worth bothering with. Because I care, I've worked with other people that care, to put rules in place before proceeding with expensive tweeks that push the rule interpretations. The F1200 Series is "no gentlemen's league". Every race is a war ..... like FV was 20-30 years ago. The only thing stopping spec FV tires in SCCA is negative people. Unfortunately, the positive-thinking people tend to get frustrated and move on, and leave the negative people to be negative. The negative people actually convince themselves, then others, that there could actually be a worse alternative than the current tire situation.

BTW, I think all the Pansie Hippies moved to the West Coast. We have a few left (mostly near Ottawa) but most of our racers are highly-competitive young urban warriers who are attracted by the low-cost competition. We have been able to "sell" them (the ideal target market) on the class because its the cheapest, and most competitive racing. Period!

[hardingfv32-1]

The only thing stopping spec FV tires in SCCA is negative people.

NO... The only thing stopping the implementation of a spec tire program is your lack of action. You are all talk and no work. If you want a spec tire program organize the NE Division.

Brian

[Rolling Stone]

WTF is this gentleman's agreement you're talking about?

If anybody would shave tires, it would be our team. We don't because it would be a waste of time. Our car's have every legal trick that I think is worth bothering with. Because I care, I've worked with other people that care, to put rules in place before proceeding with expensive tweeks that push the rule interpretations. The F1200 Series is "no gentlemen's league". Every race is a war ..... like FV was 20-30 years ago. The only thing stopping spec FV tires in SCCA is negative people. Unfortunately, the positive-thinking people tend to get frustrated and move on, and leave the negative people to be negative. The negative people actually convince themselves, then others, that there could actually be a worse alternative than the current tire situation.

BTW, I think all the Pansie Hippies moved to the West Coast. We have a few left (mostly near Ottawa) but most of our racers are highly-competitive young urban warriers who are attracted by the low-cost competition. We have been able to "sell" them (the ideal target market) on the class because its the cheapest, and most competitive racing. Period!

Well said!! Theres a lot of Weight behind these statements!

[problemchild]

The only thing stopping spec FV tires in SCCA is negative people.

NO... The only thing stopping the implementation of a spec tire program is your lack of action. You are all talk and no work. If you want a spec tire program organize the NE Division.

Brian

A partial or regional or divisional spec tire program just forces people to choose sides. It is devisive rather than inclusive.

If the FV community gives me authority, I will negotiate with suppliers, test tires at my expense, and deliver a spec tire program to SCCA by Oct 1, 2012.
There would be no charge to SCCA or anybody else. I would absorb all costs.

It is a very simple task. It would take less than several thousand dollars and less than 40 hrs work.
I'll work with anybody else who wants to help. There will be no committees or boards of people intent on getting nothing done.
If someone else wants to tackle the project, and does not want my contribution (and 32 yrs of FV and FF spec tire experience) then I will contribute $500 to the effort.

[Speedsport]

A partial or regional or divisional spec tire program just forces people to choose sides.

If the FV community gives me authority, I will negotiate with suppliers, test tires at my expense, and deliver a spec tire program to SCCA by Oct 1, 2012.
There would be no charge to SCCA or anybody else. I would absorb all costs.

It is a very simple task. It would take less than several thousand dollars and less than 40 hrs work.[/quote]



The more you make statements like this, the more apparent it becomes that you are seriously under estimating the task at hand. It is also completely out of line to infer that anyone not in agreement with your opinion on spec tires is against the survival of FV.

[problemchild]

A partial or regional or divisional spec tire program just forces people to choose sides.

If the FV community gives me authority, I will negotiate with suppliers, test tires at my expense, and deliver a spec tire program to SCCA by Oct 1, 2012.
There would be no charge to SCCA or anybody else. I would absorb all costs.

It is a very simple task. It would take less than several thousand dollars and less than 40 hrs work.

The more you make statements like this, the more apparent it becomes that you are seriously under estimating the task at hand.[/quote]

Negative statements like this is why nothing gets done and why FV is where it is. When I suggested that you undertake the project ..... silence. When I offer to do it. Negativity!

[Speedsport]

Negative statements like this is why nothing gets done and why FV is where it is.

I'm simply stating you are under estimating what is required to get the job done. You are providing no substance in your last few posts other then re-hashing your opinion that anyone against spec tires is against FV's survival. Very elementary argument technique. It's that mindset that perhaps explains why you think it's so simple to impliment a spec tire.

IF...and it's a big IF, you were given the task of finding a tire for us with that simplistic attitude, I would be scared to death of the results.

[Speedsport]

For what it's worth Greg, I have discussed the concept of a spec tire with key individuals. As much as I want to help FV's growth and / or survival, I will not take the lead on a project I feel can have a detrimental effect on the class. To have a proper spec tire that provides BENEFITS from what we have now is a large undertaking with even larger risks involved. Getting a spec tire and having one that actually cuts costs are two totally different things.

[problemchild]

IF...and it's a big IF, you were given the task of finding a tire for us with that simplistic attitude, I would be scared to death of the results.

There is that fear-mongering again. Ooooooooooooo ..... Hoosier and Goodyear will screw it up for us .... either by their incompetance ..... or because they're trying to screw us (just like they're screwing all those poor racers forced to run spec tires on their FST, CF, and pro FF and F2K race cars).

[Speedsport]

So my attempts at keeping some reality in the process is fear mongering? You point to the spec tire in the FF1600 and FF2000 series. How many race weekends are the front runners putting on a set of those "spec tires"? If they have a spec tire, why aren't they running 5 races on a set?

[problemchild]

So my attempts at keeping some reality in the process is fear mongering? You point to the spec tire in the FF1600 and FF2000 series. How many race weekends are the front runners putting on a set of those "spec tires"? If they have a spec tire, why aren't they running 5 races on a set?

How many times do you need it explained to you?

Spec tires are designed for different cars in different classes with different criteria.
That is why Hoosier builds the 60A Spec tire which is used on FST and CFs where durability/low cost is the priority.
In the Pro FF and Pro F2K marketplace, a more aggressive tire with more performance but less durability/low cost was deemed desirable by the Series organisers so Hoosier built tires for that criteria. Either of those classes would require 3-5 sets of tires per event plus those for testing if they had an open tire. Hoosier really has an excellent handle on this and is why I know they can de-tune their current FV tire and give us a killer spec tire. Goodyear has excellent people as well and could do the same should they want to. Getting rid of the tire sponsorships is the only way that spec tires can cost some FV racers more. There is absolutely no down side!

BTW ..... our experience with the Pro FF spec tire was that it maintained performance longer without degradation than any non-spec FV tire I have ever seen (on a car with double the hp). The 60A spec tire lasts for most of a FST season or 3-4 CF weekends. Both are servicing their target markets with outstanding success! Hoosier is awesome!

[smsazzy]

Spec tires are designed for different cars in different classes with different criteria.
That is why Hoosier builds the 60A Spec tire which is used on FST and CFs where durability/low cost is the priority.

If you want the Hoosier 60A as the spec tire, you already have that. The 60a and the 55 are the SAME compound. Ask Hoosier. It is the identical compound. Since I would guess 80+% of FV's run Hoosier's today, we already have the spec tire you're looking for.

On a serious note: You'll have to have a new tire designed if you want to go that route. Unless you change rim sizes. That was clearly not the will of the class. The survey showed definitively that a spec tire would be supported if it was on the existing wheels.

I do agree with Greg that those in favor should write the CRB and express frustration that they did not at least ask for member input and instead just dismissed our request.

However, I disagree with the ease of tire selection. Unless we just want hard tires. The problem is, without testing them and going through a true selection process, we won';t be able to guard against a tire with a sweet spot. It will take engineering on the side of the tire vendor and testing on the side of the class.

Greg - I think what Brian H was saying is organize the northeast, not just do it regionally. There is a LOT of political power in the northeast. Get those folks on board and you're onto something.

[problemchild]

You guys are making it way too difficult. With the Pro 1600 series, they equalized Honda engines and intoduced an awesome spec FF tire .... seemingly overnight ..... something that the SCCA system still cannot do. Because they just did it. They had engines tested on an engine dyno. They had Bruce (Hoosier) build them a tire. Done!

The FV community justs needs to appoint somebody to do it. Have Bruce build a tire as a benchmark as we know he can do it, and ask the other tire companies if they want in on the selection process. 3 monthes later ..... our "somebody" selects the tire program. Spec tires for 2012 so we can use the 50th birthday attention to sell the world that FV is the lowest cost Formula racing available.

I don't care if its Mike Varacins, Steve Oseth, Eugene Grimes, or myself. All that is needed is the ability to use a phone. We don't need SCCA, committees, or chaperones. Just find a volunteer, arrange unanimous approval for him, do it, and tell SCCA what spec tire to list in the rulebook. Done!

I offered to do it or donate $500 to the process. I have a phone. I will rent track time. Lets get on with it.