I bought my first vee when I was 23. I'm 70 now and run a vee in an ocasional vintage race and a FST in SCCA, I'm not grey I'm bald. Seriously I see most youg vee drivers are children of former vee drivers. (sometimes present vee drivers). I was a Road America last weekend for a regional and the was 1 vee entered. Young guy running a car he shares with his father. Lots of younger drivers in other classes(many much more expensuve than vee). I wish I knew the answer to attracting youg drivers but it's more than just the cost or Vee would get most of the young SCCA drivers as I can't think of a lower cost National class.
Butch Deer
Greying of the class
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tiagosantos
- Posts: 389
- Joined: June 20th, 2010, 12:10 am
Re: Greying of the class
Well I think the fact they're based on fairly "ancient" technology and parts isn't very appealing to most younger drivers.. And the lack of power. Most "kids" nowadays (hey, I'm a kid!) are addicted to thrills, everything is fast paced in our lives. Unless you're attracted to the very technical style of driving (which I am), driving a Vee can be underwhelming. They're very easy and uneventful to drive up to a certain point - I think at most smaller tracks, just about anyone can jump in a Vee and be less than 5 seconds off the pace. Heck, I was less than 2 seconds off the lap record on my first race with a Vee (and my first race ever, fresh out of driver training). But getting those last 2 seconds is very, very hard, and that's really where the fun begins.
Now on a car with a bit more power, you can be 5 seconds off the pace and still be messing up your underwear - some people are into that sort of thing..
Now on a car with a bit more power, you can be 5 seconds off the pace and still be messing up your underwear - some people are into that sort of thing..
Re: Greying of the class
Tiagosantos, I'd be interested in knowing what track record you're talking about.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
Re: Greying of the class
tiagosantos wrote:Well I think the fact they're based on fairly "ancient" technology and parts isn't very appealing to most younger drivers.. And the lack of power. Most "kids" nowadays (hey, I'm a kid!) are addicted to thrills, everything is fast paced in our lives. Unless you're attracted to the very technical style of driving (which I am), driving a Vee can be underwhelming. They're very easy and uneventful to drive up to a certain point - I think at most smaller tracks, just about anyone can jump in a Vee and be less than 5 seconds off the pace. Heck, I was less than 2 seconds off the lap record on my first race with a Vee (and my first race ever, fresh out of driver training). But getting those last 2 seconds is very, very hard, and that's really where the fun begins.
Now on a car with a bit more power, you can be 5 seconds off the pace and still be messing up your underwear - some people are into that sort of thing..
If you don't think FV racing is fast paced and a thrill ride, you are not pushing hard enough. Go to a national and try to hang on to the lead pack and tell me things are not happening quick then.
Stephen Saslow
FV 09 NWR
FV 09 NWR
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tiagosantos
- Posts: 389
- Joined: June 20th, 2010, 12:10 am
Re: Greying of the class
Brian - the FV lap record at Mission Raceway. At that time, it was 1.20.6 I believe, I did a 1.21.8.. A couple races later Scott Arthur and Bob Posner were both into the 1.19's, which I won't get to anytime soon, that's for sure. Granted this is local, regional racing, but either way, we're talking about attracting new people to the class, so I'll assume National level driving is irrelevant!
Stephen - Well that's sort of what I was trying to say. IT IS fast, and IT IS fun, exciting and terrifying at times. I love it and I have a blast. But I stuck with it because I love the fact that it takes a lot of skill to be good. I race for the challenges and to push myself, becoming a better driver, all that stuff. I'm nowhere near good enough to hang around the fast guys, but I love the fact that there's a goal I can look up to. Those last 2 seconds are very hard to shed, but that's what I love about Vees. The precision and skill needed to be fast.
What I'm saying is, since we were talking about the reasons new drivers don't pick FV, you can step into a FF or most rwd sedans and be terrified and excited right away, even 10 seconds off the pace. Having enough power to actually NEED to be careful with where and how you step on the gas.. With Vees, you'll usually have all the fun with the incredible cornering ability that they do have. But you have to be a decent driver to take advantage of it, to get to the point where it starts being fun, exciting, scary. With a slightly more powerful car, you'll be scared and excited on the straights, even if you back off on the corners.
I dunno, maybe this doesn't make sense, maybe it's a language barrier (English is not my first language). But from talking to some of my friends about Vees, showing them videos, even getting one to drive a Vee for a race weekend, this is the impression I get. They are not exciting enough for a new driver to feel attracted to. Remember we've got youtube now - I can guarantee any potential new drivers will be looking at videos on youtube of their potential class choices. Unfortunately in-car video always feels much slower than real life, and it doesn't come close to doing our class justice. Most FV videos feel slow and boring. Then you click on a related video for a spec miata race and there's 30 cars going 3 wide into corners and banging doors, etc. Not what I'm into, but it will look more exciting to just about anyone.
Finally, if I'm saying all this, it's mostly because I once felt the same way. I wanted to get into racing, knew I wanted to drive an open wheeler, had no idea what to do. Luckily, we have great and affordable Vee rentals locally and after actually trying it, I got hooked. I can pretty much guarantee if those rentals weren't so darn cheap and attractive, I would have never thought of buying a FV. I'd still be saving money for a continental or (gasp!) a sports racer of some kind..
Stephen - Well that's sort of what I was trying to say. IT IS fast, and IT IS fun, exciting and terrifying at times. I love it and I have a blast. But I stuck with it because I love the fact that it takes a lot of skill to be good. I race for the challenges and to push myself, becoming a better driver, all that stuff. I'm nowhere near good enough to hang around the fast guys, but I love the fact that there's a goal I can look up to. Those last 2 seconds are very hard to shed, but that's what I love about Vees. The precision and skill needed to be fast.
What I'm saying is, since we were talking about the reasons new drivers don't pick FV, you can step into a FF or most rwd sedans and be terrified and excited right away, even 10 seconds off the pace. Having enough power to actually NEED to be careful with where and how you step on the gas.. With Vees, you'll usually have all the fun with the incredible cornering ability that they do have. But you have to be a decent driver to take advantage of it, to get to the point where it starts being fun, exciting, scary. With a slightly more powerful car, you'll be scared and excited on the straights, even if you back off on the corners.
I dunno, maybe this doesn't make sense, maybe it's a language barrier (English is not my first language). But from talking to some of my friends about Vees, showing them videos, even getting one to drive a Vee for a race weekend, this is the impression I get. They are not exciting enough for a new driver to feel attracted to. Remember we've got youtube now - I can guarantee any potential new drivers will be looking at videos on youtube of their potential class choices. Unfortunately in-car video always feels much slower than real life, and it doesn't come close to doing our class justice. Most FV videos feel slow and boring. Then you click on a related video for a spec miata race and there's 30 cars going 3 wide into corners and banging doors, etc. Not what I'm into, but it will look more exciting to just about anyone.
Finally, if I'm saying all this, it's mostly because I once felt the same way. I wanted to get into racing, knew I wanted to drive an open wheeler, had no idea what to do. Luckily, we have great and affordable Vee rentals locally and after actually trying it, I got hooked. I can pretty much guarantee if those rentals weren't so darn cheap and attractive, I would have never thought of buying a FV. I'd still be saving money for a continental or (gasp!) a sports racer of some kind..
Re: Greying of the class
Thanks for the info. Don't worry about the language thing. Im a one language person and still get it wrong. No offense taken. I had a friend tell me that if the car isn't faster than his street car, it's not a race car. I know the vees can be a bit boring on the straights, that's why we draft so well. Things get better with additional cars. I can never recall being bored going down the backstraight at Road America or the old Road Atlanta before they put in the chicane. Going 3 abreast will wake you up too. Good luck on your program.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
Re: Greying of the class
This situation is not a lot different than what I saw when we raced bikes back in the 80's. The younger guys went for the production based machines as perhaps they seem to do in SCCA nowadays. Also, there were many more production based bikes than formula bikes - a factor of 10 or more. A good choice would be to run where there are many - that's what I did. I felt the formula bikes were a little over my head in many ways. Not that they were - I just thought they were. The guys who ran them didn't look like me - none of them were young! I think it was more of a craft for them. I wasn't in it for that at the time - never crossed my mind.
I was on a production based bike at the time. I could show up, gas it up, check oil, race/practice and then wait for the next round. Even between race weekends the bike would be my street bike and I just removed lights and the plate, added numbers and it was my race bike again. What could be easier and cheaper?!
Some of the formula bikes were brutally fast, and some were very low hp bikes with skinny tires that my production bike could run circles around - at least in the straights. I also ran an 1100 cc bike, the biggest engine at the time. The extra HP just made us terrible at cornering. We'd nail it for as long as we dared, when try to haul it down and just get through the corner somehow to just nail it again. No finesse, and hardly repeatable laps times. We were hacks. The end result is that there is a much bigger differential in lap times with the big HP bikes, since we all had a hard time dealing with the power and the idea of perfect cornering was secondary.
In SCCA, I see fewer people right now drawn to formula cars. Maybe this is for the same reasons as for the bikes. I think young people are drawn towards classes with larger numbers in SCCA as well. In our area, we have a good spread in ages in FV perhaps because we have good fields (second largest, maybe). Greg (problemchild) tells us that the Canadian race series also has large fields and that also seems to attract young people.
Anyway, I don't think it's the FV class as antiquated slow cars that's the problem because in our area I believe we have about as many FV's entries as all other formula classes combined. There is just a growing interest in non-formula cars.
I was on a production based bike at the time. I could show up, gas it up, check oil, race/practice and then wait for the next round. Even between race weekends the bike would be my street bike and I just removed lights and the plate, added numbers and it was my race bike again. What could be easier and cheaper?!
Some of the formula bikes were brutally fast, and some were very low hp bikes with skinny tires that my production bike could run circles around - at least in the straights. I also ran an 1100 cc bike, the biggest engine at the time. The extra HP just made us terrible at cornering. We'd nail it for as long as we dared, when try to haul it down and just get through the corner somehow to just nail it again. No finesse, and hardly repeatable laps times. We were hacks. The end result is that there is a much bigger differential in lap times with the big HP bikes, since we all had a hard time dealing with the power and the idea of perfect cornering was secondary.
In SCCA, I see fewer people right now drawn to formula cars. Maybe this is for the same reasons as for the bikes. I think young people are drawn towards classes with larger numbers in SCCA as well. In our area, we have a good spread in ages in FV perhaps because we have good fields (second largest, maybe). Greg (problemchild) tells us that the Canadian race series also has large fields and that also seems to attract young people.
Anyway, I don't think it's the FV class as antiquated slow cars that's the problem because in our area I believe we have about as many FV's entries as all other formula classes combined. There is just a growing interest in non-formula cars.