Electronic Ignition

[Hal]

What if any advantages are there to using an electronic ignition on a Vee other than you don't have to replace and adjust points maybe once a season? What kind of a dwell number is there, in other words, how the hell do these things work that would make using one a good idea.



Hal

FV88

[SR Racing]

Hal,

For non-vintage it is a no brainer to use them.

1. They delivery slightly more current to the coil primary, thus a higher plug voltage.
2. They eliminate point bounce.
3. They eliminate spark scatter.
4. They even decrease some VERY slight friction at the distr. shaft.
5. They never normally need replacement
6. Dwell, (thus timing) never changes. (As normal point followers wear the dwell increases and thus retards ignition timing.)
7. No condensor is required.
8. They delivery a better shaped signal to the coil which makes the tach more stable in many cases. (and cleans up data acquisition if used)

1 though 3 are certainly there and measurable but with the low compression FV engine it doesn't mean much in the way of HP in most cases.
But overall they are certainly a better choice.

Jim

[Hal]

Jim,

Thanks. I like the sound of that. Any idea what a dwell number would be for them as compared to a regular distributor? Will most any plug wires work?


Hal
FV 88

[SR Racing]

Since it is a fixed dwell time, and open spark voltage is higher on the distributor tester, I really have never checked it. My guess is it is in the 50 to 55 deg area.
Well over the point it would take to saturate the coil at 6000+ RPM.

Any plug wires will work. Since our compression ratio is where it is, and plug gap is standard, the max voltage reached on the wires remains the same with points or electronic ignition.

We have tested the Pertronix, Compufire and EMPI units. The Pertronix unit provided a slightly higher open voltage and we haven't had any failures with them. We have had seen 2 Compufire (EMPI unit is the same unit under their packaging) fail in the last 4 years.

The standard Pertronix unit is the 1847A for the 009 distributor.
We also have a 91847A unit with dwell extention and overheat/miswire protection. Unless you are turning 8000+ RPM it won't do a thing for you.

Jim

[Matt King]

Dwell depends on the unit, at least for the Pertronix. There are two types. There is a dwell graph for the Ignitor II here:

http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/ignitor2/default.aspx

They don't say what the dwell is for the standard, but you could hook up a dwell meter. We all still have one of those, right? (I do--haven't used it in 10 years though!)

[Hal]

Ok, all good info. There is a Petroix unit on the Citation I bought, only ran it briefly and then sent the carb off to Dietmar as there is a problem with the throttle shaft. Won't run it again until closer to the first races in April. On the motor in my D-13 I always tried to get the dwell around 58. Would set it in the spring and maybe have to adjust once during a season, I check timing and dwell before each race weekend. When I run it again I will put my meter on it to see what the number is, should be interesting.


Hal
FV 88

[Doug Carter]

Hal, did you buy Jim Ryder's operation?

[jrv]

I have the Ignitor II on my Vee and 1967 912 with an 009 distributor. You will not get a useful dwell reading because the electronic points change it over the range, as shown on the dwell chart referenced above. Jim Schings can tell you this as he did me. Just put your faith in some "smart points."

When you put the electronic points in, set the timing dynamically and you will be OK. I had to put an advance mark on the 912 to do this. You cannot set the points statically. I had it very close just setting it "by ear."

The 912 runs very sweet with the electronic points; at idle and running. Also I don't have to stop on the side of the road and reset them!

Jim Vaseff

[SR Racing]

You will not get a useful dwell reading because the electronic points change it over the range, as shown on the dwell chart referenced above. Jim Schings can tell you this as he did me. Just put your faith in some "smart points."

Correct. As long as your timing is correct, the dwell reading will mean little. (and there ain't anything you can do about it anyway )

As a point of interest, when we tested all of the different electronic "drop in" units, the open secondary voltage on the Pertronix was a couple thousand more volts than good points and condenser. About the only place that would be of any real value is if you potentially fouled or wetted a plug. In practical use it does nothing for HP. It may assist start-ups and idle.

We chassis dynoed an engine at peak HP hold while dropping the primary voltage. The Vee never missed a beat until you got to the 9V area. With 4 cylinders under 8:1 compression and no boost, spark voltage is not much of an issue.

Many years ago (late 60's) when I was with IBM we were doing some projects with Chrysler on electronic ignitions (archaic computer control, dwell extension, etc.). All the engineers knew that this was a cost and maintenance issue. There was no PEAK HP to be gained with normal street engines.

While many of the aftermarket ignitions (wires, coil packs, pick-up units etc. are of decent quality. We have never seen one that gave you 1 HP over a proper stock setup.
When you boost or have high compression ratios etc. things may be different.

[Matt King]

Many years ago (late 60's) when I was with IBM we were doing some projects with Chrysler on electronic ignitions (archaic computer control, dwell extension, etc.). All the engineers knew that this was a cost and maintenance issue. There was no PEAK HP to be gained with normal street engines.

The infamous Lean Burn?!

[1969zeitler]

Are they not allowed in Vintage?

[NotMoss]

That would be correct...vintage rules (in all groups that I know of) do not allow electronic ignition. Points / condenser units only. Given our hp / generator / fan setup, I've never seen much of a disadvantage to this. The added benefit is that I still can use my '52 Chevy teenage-acquired skills on a regular basis...
TED

[1969zeitler]

hee-hee... know what you mean. I had to explain to my new Hyundai-driving son in-law what points, condenser, distributor cap, and rotor was. He had never heard of any of them. Luckily... I have a 56 chevy nomad to show him on. He was also a bit confused about the whole concept of a carburetor and don't get me started on the talk about the choke and downdraft tube....Kids...

[remmers]

hey! it's not all of us! i wish we coulda kept carbs. they at least make sense when they don't work!

[Hal]

Doug,

Yeah I bought all of Jim's stuff. I now have so much stuff I don't know how much stuff I have! I am probably not worthy of the equipment but will give it a go. I have done 22's in my D-13 at Blackhawk, will be interesting to see what will happen with a "modern" race car.

Keeping the D-13 by the way.


Hal
FV(s) 88

[Dietmar]

Hal:

We're going to have to start numbering your "stuff" to keep it straight!

Based on some of the videos that I have seen, you seem to do just fine in the D-13.
Dietmar

[Hal]

I will be sewing underwear lables with my name on them for every part have...

Yes the D-13 moves pretty rapidly most of the time, but that is primarily because YOU have your talented little fingerprints all over it. Between me sending you all the "stuff" so you can do the smart work on it, INCLUDING ENTIRE ENGINE REBUILDS, and then your visits here each summer to straighten (literaly) out all the stuff I have gotten out of whack, I do ok for an old guy in an old car, and I am MUCH obliged to you, my not so secret weapon.

By the way now you will have two cars to put back into shape when you get here, but the cheeseburger is on me as usual...or, well I guess two cheeseburgers if you want.


Hal
FV 88