Tires?

[Johnny_B]

In Ontario we run at Mosport, Shannonville and a brand new track called Calabogie ( near Ottawa ). All tracks are in great shape and 2 of them have more than 1 configuration. It's not unusual to see 8 cars finish within 3 seconds. You can see some video of our races at http://www.formula 1200.com.

John B.

[hojo]

I joined canadian vee 3 years ago and one of the reasons was because of the spec tire that would last the full 6 weekends with no dropoff in performance. having a spec tire that peaks for 60 minutes doesn't do anything for anyone except the tire company.

The kumho looks ugly and doesn't belong on a vee, but it works, the racing is extremely tight and balanced. the other thing I can say is that it works well in the wet and I feel has helped keep other costs down because these tires limit us from doing other development since we are exceeding the tire's capability on our cars. I actually ran my last set for 2 years cuz I'm too cheap and we did well with them. i'm not selling the Kumho on you, but what I am saying is that it checks all the boxes off for us when it comes to having a good spec tire.

Anyone that comes from karting and is interested in vee up here, all we tell them is our tire budget and right there they are instantly peaked and ready to join.

Is the racing that much better on slicks that fade out after a couple cycles? If so its smiles all round for hoosier and GY.

They key to picking a good spec tire in my opinion is one that will yield little to no performance difference as they become older vs. strapping on new ones regardless of cost. just the hassle of not having to have multiple sets, swapping - balancing. forget it, i can't be bothered.

After watching Randy Smith run on both sides of the border with limited success, there's no way I would even think about running in the states on your current tire budget.

[hardingfv32-1]

One issue is picking the right spec tire. How is this accomplished? Who makes the decision? It seems like SRF and SM have changed tires many times over the years. Must be more to it than meets the eye.

Brian

[Matt King]

Well, you could always pick a tire that another FV group is already using successfully, like the ARs on the West Coast or the Canadians.

[P-2 Mark]

Matt,

You're making too much sense for several of the members.

Mark

[FVartist]

I see how a spec tire would work in certain situations, but using examples that are basically a regional series is very different. FV racing is very much situational in the US. Out West the racing season is pretty much year round. We are not restricted as much by weather. I think I've had to use rain tires once or twice in the last 5 years. Rain tires are free and 99% of us have a set, hence we have no use for a treaded tire. The A/R's are good, but it had little to no effect on the FV class at the start of this season, when our entries were 3 to 4 cars. I would have to say the economic situation had more of an effect. This is not the first time I've seen this happen. It happened before when we had no spec tire rule and I suspect it will happen again. I've been involved with FV for over 20 years. Canada has a limited race schedule I suspect is due to the weather, 6 race dates. We have a choice of over 35 to 40 covering a much graeter area i suspect. Larger area different race conditions. Now think Nationally and conditons are more diverse.

The place where we had been getting our A/R's went out of business at the beginning of the year and luckily other's have now replaced it. Still with the low car count they don't bother to bring any unless it is preordered. You must take into account of the service both G/Y and Hoosier have given to FV over the years. The people who receive tires free have earned them. They have spent time and money to get where they are. They strive for excelence, they have a goal, whether it be track records, race wins or the ultimate goal of a National Championship. Their dedication has been rewarded by these same tire companies. I have to say these racer's are what racing is about. My opinion, but I think these may be just some of the reasons why most National racers do not want a spec tire. They do not want a limiting factor. Racing has and will always have a cost factor, but everyone racing choses to do so. We may lose a few, but I think we retain the best group of people anywhere in racing.

Bruce

[hardingfv32-1]

Knowing the people on the West Coast who actually bought more than one set of tires this year, you are not going to find many fans of the ARs. Going to be a hard sell nationally. They are generally 25% cheaper, but the number of heat cycles is up for debate.

I believe the Canadian spec tires require new rims. How is that going to fly in these economic times?

Next idea?

Brian

[Matt King]

You know, in these difficult economic times, it would also make a lot of sense to limit the ability of guys who build $1200 intake manifolds to stretch and bend the rules so some racers feel compelled to spend that money to keep up.

[hardingfv32-1]

Are you not able to respond to my valid statements about a spec tire? The best you can do is change the discussion to manifolds? How is that going to move the spec tire topic forward?

Brian

[Johnny_B]

What brand and size are these A/R tires ?
Thanks

[Doug Carter]

Woa, for a minute there I thought I was on the FF forums on ApexSpeed.

Spec tires vs. sticky tires, treaded tires vs. slicks, spec manifolds vs. Monster Mannies, Ginger vs. Mary Anne... someone wake me up in the spring and let me know where we stand so I can have my car ready to for Blackhawk in April.




d

[Matt King]

Are you not able to respond to my valid statements about a spec tire? The best you can do is change the discussion to manifolds? How is that going to move the spec tire topic forward?

Brian

You brought up the cost of new wheels, so be prepared to have it thrown back in your face.

[hojo]

yeah we run on different rims, a set is about $360 CDN!

i wouldnt think it would be a good option to say run the kumho down there. it works for us here. I would look at "why" it works for us here and then try to apply it down there somehow with a different brand etc that better applies to your conditions.

we run June till October and it always seems to rain 3 out of 6 weekends.

so the people at the front are getting free tires?? if i was at the back or the middle i'd be pissed about that. why would i want to change rubber when i get it for free? where's my free tires...

[FVartist]

The simplistic example of how it was accomplished in the SF region was due to one person. He talked to most of the people and got a consensus. He then contacted a tire manufacturer, brought it before the FV group and asked us all our opinion. It worked because he took it on himself. He stayed on topic.
Brian in his usual way has demonstrated that it is not easy. He brought up that the tires that Canada uses, requires a new or different rim, a pertinent fact to this subject. You will have to be prepared to answer any and all questions. Some may agree with you, however I suspect most will not. You hurt your cause if you get combative and go off subject.

Bruce

[smsazzy]

Are you not able to respond to my valid statements about a spec tire? The best you can do is change the discussion to manifolds? How is that going to move the spec tire topic forward?

Brian

You brought up the cost of new wheels, so be prepared to have it thrown back in your face.

Matt,

Brian brought up a legitimate question about the cost associated with moving to a specific spec tire, and you essentially threw an insult at him that has absolutely nothing to do with this topic. That's like you asking a question and him saying, yah but your car is an ugly color......

This entire manifold discussion is ridiculous. Brian came up with a product within the current rules and charges essentially the market rate for it. Call Kohanski, he sells manifolds for $1000. Nobody spits at him when he posts something.

Can we stay on the topic please. Maybe someone should start a topic called "insults for Brian Harding" so people can stop polluting every thread with this junk.

[remmers]

the responce you're looking for is a simple algebra problem.

pick the current tire situation and switching to the khumo

A current tires are about $600USD a set (at least that's what i have to pay). They last you approx 4-ish heat cycles (this is just an estimate from what I'm reading on the forum) before they drop off and are no longer Nationally competitive. The Khumo lasts all year, (approx 30 heat cycles, taken from the F1200 thread) but you need to buy a set of wheels at $350USD. For parity's sake, we'll say that they also cost $600USD for a set. All numbers here are approximate, if you have better numbers, you can still plug them in. How many heat cycles/sessions do you need to run before the Khumo pay for themselves?

600(X/4)=600(x/30)+350
150x=20x+350
130x=350
x=2.6 heat cycles

So assuming the Khumo are the same price as a current set of tires, we're looking at making up for that initial expense the first time you have to buy a new set of the current tire.

This is also to say nothing of those who are just starting out with nothing and would need to buy a set of rain tires and set of dry tires before they can go race, in which case you're looking at $1200ish? just to go race. Obviously not many new drivers have to plunk down for new tires and could always get hand-me-downs at a much lower price, but those are also not the guys who are looking to be Nationally competitive, which I believe is where both the tire and manifold issue are really stemming from, people who want to be running Nationals on a budget.

I think that this is the response Matt meant to give to Brian

[Speedsport]

Gotta love the internet. How did we argue these things before it?

It occured to me as I was reading through the postings on manifolds and tires, that it seems like much of the reasoning behind all the panic regarding them is the some feel they need to have them in order to be competitive. But is that really the case? Matt - you've been very outspoken about the need to limit manifolds and move to a spec tire. I don't mean to single you out, but you're the only reference I have for my example following. Do you (and all involved) honestly feel it would help you be more competitive? Competitive national times at Blackhawk are from mid 1:19's to upper 1:21's. How close are you to those now? The difference between perfect tires and mostly used up ones is around .8 sec at blackhawk (Based on my experience). I'll throw in another .3-.4 seconds for the difference between a great and not so great manifold, for a total of 1.1 to 1.2 seconds. That means you would need to be turning mid 1:21's to mid 1:22's without those to be competitve with them. Is that the difference you need? Or are the manifold and tire issues keeping you from focusing on more important aspects?

When I started racing, I didn't have the greatest equipment and I certainly didn't have the greatest financial resources either. But winning (or being competitive) is something that I truely wanted. To the point I lived with my parents until I was 31 so I could afford to race. I found ways to get faster without spending money. Remember, in racing, someone will always have an advantage over you in some area, whether it's car prep, HP, experience, ect. Your goal is to find your own advantages, in whatever way you can. So you don't want to buy a new manifold. Do what others do in the same situation - make it up somewhere else. But keep in mind, the more items that become spec, the less you have to work with to overcome the advantages others have.

The good news is this approach really makes you a better race car driver. Learning how to go fast with what you have forces you to take a deep look at what really is holding you back, and requires focus on the right areas. If you are not within .3-.4 seconds of a competitive time at Blackhawk, then start concentrating on something besides manifolds. Again, I don't mean to address this to you - but to anyone in the situation. If you buy the .3-.4 seconds right away, what do you do when you need the next .3-.4 seconds? You still need to find it with what you have. The icing on the cake is doing well after this approach makes it 10 times more rewarding.

[remmers]

I suppose if you want to go so far as to say serviceable tires instead, you can recompare. I get about 8-10 out of a set of tires before they're completely shot. that's still 1/3 the lifespan of the khumo, we can recompare even

600(X/10)=600(X/30)+350
60X=20x+350
3X=350
X=12 sessions
so about half a year's worth of racing? still a good deal.

[FVartist]

Remmers,

You forgot to put in the cost of existing rims. Most have at least 3 sets. Remember you are replacing them. You also did not account for those that have rain tires. Again being replaced. Now all you have to figure in is how many sets of tires a racer has from the previous year that he was saving for the new year. These are part of initial cost.

Additional cost might include testing to see what changes might be needed. My experience tells me any change requires additional changes, of course most National racer's up front are not stagnant during the off season.


Bruce

[neilcox]

The good news is this approach really makes you a better race car driver. Learning how to go fast with what you have forces you to take a deep look at what really is holding you back, and requires focus on the right areas. If you are not within .3-.4 seconds of a competitive time at Blackhawk, then start concentrating on something besides manifolds. Again, I don't mean to address this to you - but to anyone in the situation. If you buy the .3-.4 seconds right away, what do you do when you need the next .3-.4 seconds? You still need to find it with what you have. The icing on the cake is doing well after this approach makes it 10 times more rewarding.

Speedsport speaks the gospel of FV. Most of what it takes to be competitive comes from experience, preparation and talent. It is hard to run up front consistently, so that new tires and mannies can help you get to the lead. I will run 4 more events rather than buy a new manifold so as to further develop the car and myself. More laps = more speed.

[remmers]

Bruce,
The Khumo are treaded, so you don't need a rain tire. I did not include the price of the current rims because they are what's known in economics as a 'sunk cost'. You already bought them, but you never have to throw good money after bad, to coin a phrase. This is also not something that will be put in place immediately. Because of the length of time it takes to get a new rule into the GCR, people will have at least half to a whole year to use up their existing tires. Then they wouldn't have any rubber left over to use the next season. You could also allow for a 1 year grace period if people really need to get rid of tires that badly, and just say they must race on the spec tires, but practice and qualifying can be run on whatever rubber you want. Sounds reasonable enough to me.
Should you want a full spare set of the Khumo, that brings your initial investment to an estimated (probably on the high end) $1900 for two sets of rims and two sets of tires that will last you supposedly 60 heat cycles worth of racing. You can always buy just one set of each for about $1000. I spend about that much going to a single race, so I could much rather just skip a race in favor of having tires that will last me probably two whole seasons, given I budget about 5 weekends a year. (In those 5 weekends, I spent $1200 on tires throughout the course of the year because I ran them through their serviceable lifespan, which seemed about 8 heat cycles.)
This is to say nothing of the fact that I seriously doubt any Regional level drivers will be doing test days to fine tune the tires. they'll just run them and figure it out as they go along, which puts everyone at least at the regional level on equal footing. At the National level, who knows? Perhaps a couple will do a test day, but most will likely not. Either way, within a year or two, everyone will likely have a handle on spec tires. I personally don't see any long-term downside, but please list them if you can see what I can't.

[neilcox]

How much does this tire/wheel package weigh? If it is heavier than what we use now what is the cost & learning curve to upgrade our shock/spring package?

[remmers]

Good question. Perhaps Greg or another that runs the FV1200 could chime in. What front shocks are used in the class mostly? Are they comparable to the current shocks on the market?

[hojo]

regarding shocks and kumho's in canada,

virtually everyone runs the stock dampers...this is what i was talking about restricting the costs in other areas, as a group no one goes out and buys "all the fast bits"
becuase it hurts us all if one person does it as far as quality of racing. meaning what's the point of dominating everyone with your wallet, when you could do it with talent. it's a lot more rewarding that way

i duno, that seems to be the mentality up here, seems the other way down there.

we know who the best drivers are in ontario...tires, shocks, motors, manifolds,....everyone has the same stuff. there is no debate...

i'm not saying that's the case down south, and i like what varacins is saying about developing ones self before your car or trying to equalize the cars by spec'ing the rules, but those who aren't quite there or as fast yet will always ask these types of spec questions cuz they feel they can't be that much slower than the front guys.

the other thing i would factor in is that in the ontario f1200 there's only about 20-25 members active per year, thats a lot smaller gorup to get to change rules than your US contingent which has hundreds upon hundreds most likely, you'll never get 100% consensus. we are more apt to consider cost before speed.

good luck whatever you choose to do in the future as it does have an impact up here on us.

[FVartist]

Remmers,

A sunk cost is nothing more than taking an unrecoverable cost. Are we now going to argue semantics, cost, loss? You obviously do not care to add your loss, while I do. As for downsides read my previous posts.

Bruce