Tires?

[Speedsport]

Greg,

I added to my previous post but I didn't get it in before you responded. SRF has tried NUMEROUS tires over the years. They all suffered from specific heat cycles that were better then others. We do not know if SRF would be better without a spec tire, but we can't say it wouldn't be either.

I'm just looking at the reality of the goals. We would all want a tire that lasts 50 heat cycles, and one with the ability to turn laps within .01 second from heat cylce #1 to #50. I just don't think it's possible. Right now I can put on a set of tires that are 5-6 heat cycles old, and know that they are still as good as cycle #1. (I qualified on tires at the runoffs this year that already had 3 cycles on them.) What if we end up with a spec tire that after a year of trying, proves to be a TINY bit better on the first cycle? Now my runoffs tire budget just went up 2-3 times because we "needed" a spec tire to save the class.

What if in doing so, we loose the support from Hoosier or Goodyear? If the spec tire fails, and we lost a supplier, then what?

Too many risks, not enough benefit.

[Speedsport]

How can you possibly say that a spec tire has been a benefit to IRL, F1, NASCAR, ect????? How has it been a benfit to them? Has their tire budgets gone down because they get more heat cycles out of a tire?????

I'm not even sure the F2000 series can be an example. I would have to look into the situation. Again, they use a spec tire due to the series sponsor. That does not make it a good tire choice to save team money. If they are getting 10-20 heat cycles out of a tire (your goal in FV), then yes. But for some reason, I doubt thats the case.

[problemchild]

There are several hundred FV racers that don't go to the Runoffs. There used to be several thousand. Perhaps some of the top guys may have to make some sacrifices, just as some of the bottom guys will have to ..... buy their first set of tires in 20 years. With any luck there will be more cars on track for top guys to beat and the bottom guys won't be so bottom. Control tire rules generally help the majority of the racers in that middle segment of the grid.

[hardingfv32-1]

Talk, talk ,talk.... So how are you going to make this happen? What is the plan? No way SCCA simply buys into this.

Yes, there is a general reluctance to switch to a spec FV tire, especially among the Nat competitors who spend the most on tires. How do you plan to overcome this reluctance? How many actual competitors have been contacted? We have heard the call for a spec tire many times before, what is different this time?

It is NOT going to get done from a computer keyboard!

Brian

[problemchild]

I worked up a proposal based on the FF proposal. There appears to be a very strong movement in that community. As usual, over here, everybody points out why we can't, rather than saying lets get this done while all those garage queens are still close to trackworthy. Working in parallel with the FF community will be very helpful from a timing perspective.

If anybody can be bothered to fine-tune and move forward with a proposal, that would be awesome. I consider this situation so broken, that I personally would support almost any control tire option. I would certainly organize a track day or evening at Nelson Ledges next summer to test any options that appeared viable. Finding the tire or creating the rule is the easy part. Dealing with the apathy is the challenge

[P-2 Mark]

Brian,

It's more than just talk, but rather an effort to answer several of those who disagree. Let's see
where Greg takes this etc..


Michael,

You continue to downplay the FST tire because it's "oversized" for the car in question? However, it's
the same tire used by the Club Ford class and the tire construction / durability can be designed into
a Vee tire, ala the "Vee-rocks" of many years ago. You asked for a group using a "spec tire" and I
give you "Formula First", regardless of your opinion on it's size.

Thanks!

Mark

[hardingfv32-1]

And exactly how does this get done from a key board? I saw how was got done in the SFR region and it takes a lot more work than you guys have shown to this point. It is going to take a very good sales person or politician to make this happen. Who do you have available for the job?

Brian

[problemchild]

This is only going as far as people will take it.
I have no problem summiting a proposal, but unless others can find some sense of urgency, this will go no further than any other positive ideas that have been suggested in the past few years. This class cannot afford to "see how things go" for a few more years. I would much rather see Mike kicking 25 guys asses at Cendiv Nationals than 5 guys. I would hope that he does too.
I expect to be running 2 or 3 FVs out of my shop next year. I can put a season's worth of F1200 tires on them for $600 each. Nelson and the Glen are closer for me, but I would expect that I won't be going there often if I need $350 worth of tires per weekend to race with fewer cars.
It is just not the economics for an entry level class.

[hardingfv32-1]

Blah,blah,blah.... you are not telling us anything that we don't know or haven't heard before. Unless someone starts touching some skin this is a complete waste of time. There are NO "people" who are going to get this done. There wasn't in the SFR region, just one person willing to do the work, Blake Tatum.

Brian

[problemchild]

As always Brian, thankyou for your support and concern for the future of FV.

Blah, blah, blah ...........

[brianmetcalf]

I have yet to run a FST, but I am Designing and Building a FST car. Every expense is big for me and I will only run regionals. Here is my deal. I have run two spec tire classes of cars and have had great racing and was able to compete with the best in the class because instead of the fast guys with deep pockets and new sticky tires being the top of the class it was the guys that set up their cars right for that track were up front. One class I drove for three years on dirt used a spec tire and we had restrictor plates we were door to door every lap it was the most fun in a race car i had had in years. Then I went legends car racing and they have a spec hockey puck for tires but all those guys can set up their cars to run fast despite the tires. The Dirt spec tire cost $75/tire $300/set we bought them from the track. The Legends Car tires varried depending who you had camber them but the last set I bought was $485... That is a far cry from $1200/set you guys are talking about.
JMO
Brian

[cendiv37]

Greg,

Formally submit your proposal as a letter to the CRB. That should officially put it in play. Anyone else interested, for or against, can submit a letter with their opinion and hopefully some reasonable justification for that opinion.

Hopefully SCCA is working on a better way to collect contact information of actual FV participants both regional and national. If they (SCCA) do their job, we will finally have a way to contact actual participants and get large amounts of feedback. This is the only way this kind of thing can get any traction.

FYI, when we last tried to survey what the FV community wanted re: tires, more that 50% of those that responded wanted a spec. tire of some sort. The problem was the pro spec. tire responses were split between the option of a hard slick (works on current wheels but still requires a "free" rain tire) vs. a street tire option similar to that used in the Canadian FV1200 (which requires all competitors to acquire new wheels, but eliminates the need for rain tires, etc.). The largest single block of "votes" was for the status quo which is what ensued. Some of this was a problem with the way that survey was constructed.

Mike is right in that a spec. tire can be done "wrong" and not help the class. Brian is also right in that this will not happen because some people posted on the interchange.

To make this happen "right" will take compromise by all and a significant effort on many peoples part's. Without that effort inertia will win out.

[problemchild]

I have no problem submitting a proposal. Considering I wrote it up in 10 minutes, I hoped people would be able to add some better ideas to the concept or just come up with a better one all together.

I will gladly support anyone who can gather the support to bring control tires into play as a viable option. Until then, I will proceed and welcome any support.

Thanks!

Ps ..... Blah, blah, blah .......

[Dave]

OK I crewed on a F2000 East car all season. Let's look at the spec tire. $950 per set but that did include mounting and balancing. F2000 series limits a competitor to 6 tires for official qualifying and the two races per weekend. Unlimited tires for the test day and practice. We used 2 SETS for test and practice and the 6 tires for the races. Tires were a problem two maybe three heat cycles and they were junk. This is an example that we should be touting. Look at the savings the F2000 competitors had. 14 tires per weekend X six weekends $18,900. Just fits into my budget nicely.

Dave

[neilcox]

Greg,

Take your proposal and make it happen within your Division's Regional Series. Don't tell us what a great idea it is, SHOW us.

[problemchild]

Those F2000 cars were often running hrs and hrs of track time per weekend. What would that have cost without spec tires? Why were there over 30 cars at some events. Being able to run 25-30 hrs in a semi-pro Series for less than $20K worth of tires! For those cars to be on track for that much time, and spend so little on tires, is actually very good. There were mid-pack guys getting through the test day and official sessions using two sets.

Show you? Spec tires are working at the regional level on the lower left coast, in Canadian F1200, and in FST. Yet, those that like buying tires are not willing to accept that. Spec tires won't work at the regional level (only) in much of the country. There is way too much crossover between series and races. There is not time to waste. The serious Regional racers and entire National fields are the ones that will benefit most from a control tire rule. That means virtually everybody!

Interestingly, Tom Valet made these comments about FF tires on Apexspeed ...

My point is that for many people, the current situation is already past the breaking point.
Another question---how does a specified tire hurt you Stan? All it does is put everyone in the same boat. I dont see the downside. If there is one, let's talk about specifically how it hurts a compettior individually or the class as a whole and stop this "the sky is falling" paranoia.
I have already received more than a dozen e-mails and PMs from people thanking me for bringing this subject up for discussion. They are racers who either want to join the class but didnt because of the engine and tire costs or racers who cut way back on the numbers of races they ran. All have been encouraged by the new engine rule and by the possibility of doing something about tire costs.

Tom posted his proposal to strong support from the FF community. Will FF have control tires in 2011 while FV has an open tire rule? Why are people with $50K race cars trying to reduce their operating expenses when people with $10K race cars don't care? It is confusing. Everything that affects them should be even more applicable to FV.

[brian]

FF , tire wise, has always been a very expensive class. 20 years ago, national guys would use 2 sets a weekend. Vees have been much better than that. FM had a spec tire and was very expensive as well. Sometimes more than 2 sets a weekend. As mentioned before, if your car is set up properly and you are using the right part of your anatomy to drive, our tires do very well. For $600 I get 3 races, at least 3 or 4 qualifiers and several practices out of a set. Greg, didn't you say your season was 6 weekends? I know there was more track time but that's not the same as my 10 weekends and runoffs. Which reminds me, I use the limited use Runoff tires over several of the first weekends in the following year.

We'll jsut have to see what happens with the CRB.

[Dave]

There is not time to waste

Greg you sound Like Barack Obama.

[CSatterley]

Have the numbers increased in CFF, in the regional SFR Vee, or in the F1200 series because of a control tire? What have been the negative side effects, if any?

[FVartist]

I do not agree with either Greg or Matt. Neither have given a reason I consider justifiable. Comparing one class to another is an oxymoron. Personal opinion is just that.
We have had a spec tire for Regionals out here on the West Coast for over 10 years. This year the numbers are down and it is due to the economy. Most National racers do not want to purchase the spec tire so they can run Regionals. Some don't because of the skill differences. Some because of class groupings. The reasons are many. Cost of tires on the West Coast National level is not a major part of the racing budget. Travel expenses are much greater. How many would come to the West Coast for the Runoff? How many can afford to tow for 3 to 4 days each way to get to the Runoff? Tires to us are not that great a concern.
Oh yeah Blah, Blah, and another Blah, But then I don't think I see myself presenting a proposal on this subject.

Bruce

[jpetillo]

Now, if we could only restart this thread without all the name calling, unsubstantiated remarks, etc., then maybe we can make some headway. That headway may lead to a spec tire rule or not. It will be what it will be - nothing wrong with that. All the arguments here have had valid viewpoints - some more than others.

I think the unsubstantiated claims are what kills these discussions. In my opinion this would go much better if we agree that spec tires have worked in some racing series, and acknowledge that they haven't in others. Before we can say that life in FV would be better or not with a spec tire, let's point to some series that are close to FV in nature and have (or had) a spec tire and simply ask how it worked out. I'd suggest that our Steering Committee talk with their Steering Committees. One racer talking to another won't be believable enough for us to jump on the bandwagon.

John

[problemchild]

There is NO downside!
You will save money!
Depending on how often you race and how often you buy tires, you may save 10% or you may save 40%.
It is that simple.

If someone offered you 25% more gas mileage for your tow rig and nothing would change except you would arrive in 1% longer time, most people would jump at the opportunity. Some would go more often. Most would go with less sacrifice. I guess a few would object to the slower pace. I cannot imagine that some would sell their car and quit because they were being forced to save money. It would only be a good thing.

It would be nice if people spent as much effort trying to find ways to reduce costs and improve participation, as they do fear-mongering.

BTW Dave, Thankyou!

[Speedsport]

So far the only "success" story that has been cited as legitimate example has been the CFF/FST tire. I do not know any CFF drivers running serious efforts that can attest to the life of the tire. So I remain skeptical on that example.

Greg has done an excellent job at pointing to series that are USING a spec tire, but has yet to prove that USING a spec tire has been a direct benefit to the drivers. I've competed in two different classes requiring spec tires, and have a close friend currently competing in another. He is always complaining about the usefull life of his tires, and in the series I competed in, it was the same deal. To the point that like Dave mentioned, they have to LIMIT the number of tires allowed during a weekend.

If the goal is to increase car counts at races, how can we prove before hand that making a radical change and it's associated risks will result in the goal of increased car counts? As I mentioned a long time ago, drivers will always find something to complain about. There will always be the bunch that says "I would race if only we had xxxx." I say those will always find reasons not to. I'm not willing to take the risks in hopes that by saving someone a $1000 a year we get larger car counts.

Don't forget the impact to our dealers. There are several in the FV community that make money off tire dealerships. Are you willing to put them in a tough spot due to a loss in tire revenue?

[Johnny_B]

Just to give you a Canadian perspective. Our field of FV is between 17 - 21 cars on a weekend. We run a spec. Khumo tire all year and then save them as spares for the next year. I've had discussions with our drivers and at least 1/2 want to go to at least 1 or 2 of your races next your but won't go to the expense of buying tires just to be competetive. It's true that when your national racers are here they are a little more than 2 seconds a lap quicker than us when on new slicks. On older slicks we are pretty much equal. I've gathered up some used slicks and may make a trip to the Glen just to experience a different track, but it's hard to load up the trailer knowing that your going to run at the back unless you buy new tires for 1 weekend.
Just my 2 cents worth,
John Barrett

[mdf27]

Johnny B where do you run in Canada? I have run and Mosport and Termblant before they resurfaced Termblant with a sedan. I Just got into a Vee and I would love to run in Canada again I love those tracks and you would love the Glen

Mark