Formula Vee Meeting during the Runoffs

[remmers]

I have a question, why is it that it seems everyone is up in arms and saying they'd gladly pay for a spec manifold. But scoffs at the idea of a spec tire that, even if we needed to get one or two new sets of wheels would pay for itself in less than two or three years? It just seems odd to me that one cost saving measure is better than the next...

[Matt King]

Harley engines--I love the idea, as ridiculous as it is, because I work for HD and could probably get a great sponsorship deal!!! But seriously, I'd rather see a spec manifold and spec tires. One of the things that really ticks me off when discussing spec tires are the people who dismiss it out of hand as unworkable despite the fact that there are so many examples of successful spec tire racing series all around the country, including FVs.

If there really is a beam shortage, why not take a look at allowing the balljoint beam with discs on the front at least?

[pillowmeto]

The one thing no one has mentioned is that FV is a community and many of the vee folks will bend over backwards to help a newbie.

To me, this is critical and can not be stressed enough. Example: I am a first year driver in a D-13. This weekend I had a top driver hand me a Runoffs manifold (straight form this years runoffs) and a pair of red Penskes with the instructions to return them at the end of the weekend! I often receive advice from national and divisional champions, and some times even free work! I even had a set of 2 heat cycle tires offered (that would not work on my car due to size differences).

The advice, and even parts and tires, that I have received from the high up racers has been incredible.

[hardingfv32-1]

If you like spec tires, get out there and make it happen. Mentioning it on this from is not going to accomplish a consensus with the majority. Stop the babble and get it done.

Brian

[FV80]

I have a question, why is it that it seems everyone is up in arms and saying they'd gladly pay for a spec manifold. But scoffs at the idea of a spec tire that, even if we needed to get one or two new sets of wheels would pay for itself in less than two or three years? It just seems odd to me that one cost saving measure is better than the next...

Brian (that's the right name, isn't it?),
Most of the people who claim to be ready to buy a spec manifold are the ones that are being forced to buy the "blown" up ones due to SCCA ruling them legal. The racers that generally go to the Runoffs - or plan to go, or just WANT to go bad enough. Only a VERY few of the "non Runoffs" types have expressed interest because it's "just another expense". I can understand that and that's why the Committee is attempting to come up with a plan that would NOT require anyone to buy a new manifold ... and if they did anyway, it would cost WAY less than a set of tires.

Spec tires, OTOH, open up HUGE CANS of worms. - involving such things as...
No readily available treaded tire that could be used on our existing rims. <<<----- PRIMARY ISSUE!!!

Using a tire that REQUIRES *EVERYONE* to go buy at least one full set of rims ... plus the tires themselves, would put a quite large REQUIRED expenditure onto EVERYONE who raced FV. It is the opinion of the Committee that we would lose a **LOT** of racers by imposing a rule like that. Custom wheels to fit our 'wide 5' pattern are NOT CHEAP. Changing to a 4 bolt wheel means changing the front beam, which requires redesiging the front suspension (shocks), etc, etc.

Believe me - we have discussed this MANY times - each time, the cost/benefit ratio fails the $$$ test in the short term. In the LONG term, it might make sense, but how many would be left to benefit?? How many of you out there are ready and willing to spend $2000 RIGHT NOW! and then not even have ONE spare wheel ?? Much less a spare set of wheels/tires. Even if you didn't have to spend any more $$ on tires the whole year? And, remember, it would be MANDATORY! What size fields do you think we would have ??

Steve

[Ed Womer]

A freaking Harley engine! Are you nuts? In 2006 I decided to buy a Harley because it is made in America to replace my 20 year old Kawasaki sport bike. Well what a mistake that has become. The 883 sportster I have is a nice bike but it gets crappy fuel milage and the engine sputters/stumbles when accelerating way to often. The dealers all say it is becuase of the EPA rules and they won't touch it but all want me to spend my money to put performance parts on that will fix the problem. Harley is only interested in selling nostalgia and doesn't care about quality engineering and product.

Lets face it the harley engine is a design from the early 1900's where as the wv is 1940's.

I would perfer to see the class look to starting to move to newer vw parts that are more readily avaliable in the future but many seem opposed to that at this point. I don't have the answer but am willing to listen to all ideas and the current state of the class is still sound as long as we can obtain the needed parts for a resonable price.

Chris mentioned that his car is basically old school vee but he is still competitive and that is and will always be the case. Those who think you need the newest widgit to win are only fooling themselves because like someone else mentioned that seat time and experience is what you need to be at the front. Althought at Summit last weekend there where some younger guys at the front that do have the newest equipment but managed to over drive themselves out of the race. Also Ed Impink had a home built car that he husled around with the front runners so it is possible to do it on a limited budget if you choose to.

No amount of money will get you to the front in vee if you don't have the driving skills to be there. a cobination of experince over time and money invested in upgrades agian over time is what has gotten most of us to where we are now. Very few of us started out up front!

Ed

[CSatterley]

I have to agree with ED. The go fast parts help once you've learned how to drive fast, but you are wasting your money if you think its going to make a slow driver fast. I've gotten faster every year and have only made minor changes to the car (the biggest being dropping lbs off myself).

[Matt King]

Spec tires: where did the "$2000 upgrade for everyone" come from? There are hard compound American Racer tires that fit the wheels everyone uses now and cost less than a set of Hoosiers.

[Doug Carter]

Wasn't Hoosier producing a R70 compound Vee tire at some point, too? Couldn't they produce something similar again? Seems like another simple concept that is being overthought and overcomplicated for no particular reason.




The SCCA needs a Dictatorship, who has no ties to any one company or class, and has ONLY the best intentions of the racers and the racing at heart.

[P-2 Mark]

Ed,

Why not consider moving towards a 1600 cc VW motor since the parts are plentiful (so I'm told)? The FST
crowd have proven that they can limit the horsepower with the restrictor plate and with most Vee's, the
conversion would be simple. I converted a Citation to 1600cc power several years ago and the major issue
in the conversion wasn't the motor, but rather the front beam which wouldn't be an issue here. My major
concern would be the placement of the Dry sump tank which appears to be a must in running the motor.
I had no place to put one in my Citation and the exhaust would have to be heated and stretched on several
of the Vee's due to the wider motor etc.... Just a thought...

Mark Farnham

Protoform P-2

[P-2 Mark]

Doug,

Hoosier builds a R60 tire that the CF/FST class uses and they last +20 heat cycles with
little degradation of grip.

Mark

[Doug Carter]

I think there was a group in the east using a R70 compound for a spec class—it may have been CF, but I seem to remember seeing it as a FV tire. It was made specifically for this group and was VERY successful, IIRC. I think it was a compound that was developed with long life and very little performance drop-off.

When I get a chance, I'm going to dig back through the archives here and at ApexSpeed and see what I can find about that compound and tire.

[CitationFV21]

I think there was a group in the east using a R70 compound for a spec class—it may have been CF, but I seem to remember seeing it as a FV tire. It was made specifically for this group and was VERY successful, IIRC. I think it was a compound that was developed with long life and very little performance drop-off.

When I get a chance, I'm going to dig back through the archives here and at ApexSpeed and see what I can find about that compound and tire.

Just keep this bookmarked: http://pages.cthome.net/czracing/FVspectire.htm

ChrisZ

[Doug Carter]

Ok, I found it pretty quickly in a FF spec tire thread on ApexSpeed—it was a CF tire, but the notes about the testing are interesting, nonetheless.

The tire was created for the RCCA's Club Ford class. Their goals were a tire that was repeatable with minimal performance loss for 40 heat cycles with minimal or no first cycle advantage. Goodyear, Hoosier and McCreary were approached. Hoosier and McCreary submitted tires for testing. I did the testing, same car, same driver, same day. I ran 2 classes on the same day, testing included dedicated test days, race weekend practice days and actual race weekends for an entire year. McCreary’s original tire was better but Hoosier came back with a second formulation that was good as well.

What we ended up with was the Hoosier RCCA compound tire. Tires came [specifically] lettered from Hoosier with RCCA on the side. They are now also known as Hoosier R70’s.

70’s are harder than both Goodyear 600 and Hoosier 60’s and considerably more repeatable. What we didn’t get was 40 heat cycles and no first cycle advantage. The Hoosier R70 is a very durable tire by slick standards, minimal performance loss for 24 heat cycles. It has a slight first cycle advantage that only last’s for a few laps. We used to joke that the mold release agent was faster than the tire. All in all a pretty good tire for the original goals.

Now, while this FF compound is no longer produced for the RCCA by Hoosier, it doesn't mean that it couldn't be resurrected and at least tested in a FV size. It's something to think about if not seriously consider. On a wide-spread Regional level, especially. For a class that is filled with people who are consistently complaining about cost control and limiting unnecessary expenses, I'm astonished how complicated the control tire path has been. You'd think this was a no-brainer, slam dunk of a concept.

I guess racers all hate it when their cheese gets moved.

[brian]

Hoosier made the vrocs for the Colorado regional series and I understand will make them again if enough interest is shown. What I don't understand is why no one goes beyond the forum and do what the SF region did and approach the local SOM and start the program. It's time for the inspiration to translate into perspiration.

[Ed Womer]

Mark,

I think the 1600 option will eventially happen but not right now. I did start work on a FST car and hope to finish it over the winter. If anything else it should sell here in DC area as a street rod. I think a lot of the things the group who brought the FST to life did were good but the vee comunity is not interested in big change and has resisted it. The sunp tank isn't as big a problem as some think becuase it doesn't need to hold 8 quarts and or sit right behind the firewall. I wish when it was proposed for vee earlier it would have got some interes since we are the only real race car class that doesn't have dry sump systems. The exhaust from any vee will fit on a 1600 without any problems other than getting it to slip into the collector which can be done with the primaries lose and bending them to fit into the collector. Then one sesion on the track and they should actually move around to the new positon and be fine after that.

Ed

[smsazzy]

Hoosier made the vrocs for the Colorado regional series and I understand will make them again if enough interest is shown. What I don't understand is why no one goes beyond the forum and do what the SF region did and approach the local SOM and start the program. It's time for the inspiration to translate into perspiration.

On one of the prior threads about spec tires, I offerred to champion the spec tire process. Asked for volunteers to help test, donate some $ for the process, etc. Hoosier and GY were both willing to help, and guess how many responses I got......zero.

The spec tire discussion is just a few people whining and the rest of us agreeing or disagreeing. Nobody actually seems to care enough to actually do something.

Imagine what all these threads look to a new racer wanting to get into FV. All the threads proclaim the sky is falling because we need spec tires because they cost $21,500 per year and only last one session, the manifolds are $82,000 because Brian Harding wears a propeller on his hat, and the only place you can find parts is in old barns scattered throughout the south and midwest where all the black helicopters are hidden. (By the way, all the FST guys are retired black helicopter pilots)

Okay, I might be exagerating slightly, but c'mon guys..... If you want to complain about spec tires all day then actually do something. Maybe start by writing a letter/sending an email to the SCCA.

[Doug Carter]

Here is a note from Bruce Foss of Hoosier Tire about producing a "control tire" for FV...

To answer your question directly, it is not difficult to make test tires that somewhat follow your criteria. However, we've been down this road so many times and it always has turned into a dead end. Most of those who are interested in a long-lasting, no fall-off, inexpensive spec tire for FV are usually somewhat out of touch with the reality of acceptable race tire performance on FV's. The fact of the matter is, through open tire competition over the last 25 years, the quality in performance of FV race slicks has improved dramatically at a cost to competitors that does not come close to paralleling the cost of living or the rate of inflation. I've seen the street tire scenario. I've seen the hard compound scenario. I think we've seen it all in 25 yrs. of supplying FV tires. As this subject is a point of discussion over and over again, in the end, it is usually agreed that spec tires are really not the way to go in FV.

[CitationFV21]

Here is a note from Bruce Foss of Hoosier Tire about producing a "control tire" for FV...

......in the end, it is usually agreed that spec tires are really not the way to go in FV.

Cost per race (using common accepted prices):
Entry fee: $275 - $375 per race
Engine Maint: $200 per race ($1600 rebuild / 8 races)
Gasoline: $50 per race (track fuel)
Travel expenses too variable to calculate
New Manifold every year $150 per race ($1200 / 8 races)
Tires: $360 per race (5 heat cycles)

Yes, I have run tires to 10 heat cycles or more, but the only race I have won in that time was on a new set of tires.

......the quality in performance of FV race slicks has improved dramatically at a cost to competitors that does not come close to paralleling the cost of living or the rate of inflation....

I would gladly give up "performance" to get more heat cycles - Tire wars only cost competitors and tire manufacturers.

ChrisZ

[remmers]

SCCA did open up use of pump gas in all classes, so I'm thinking just buy a bottle of lead additive for the fuel and save some serious coin by buying regular or premium unleaded vs 110/112 octane.

[jpetillo]

Hi Chris, John here. I was wondering, if you can't make a race, could I please borrow your car? I'd tank it up before returning it.

[fvracer]

I see that in the latest issue of Fastrack that it says no action was required on a question because pump fuel is allowed 1/1/2010, but i missed the actual Fastrack announcement of that change. Is this spelled out anywhere? I checked Sept and Aug and couldn't find it. How will they police for all the performance additives in "pump gas"? It would be great to be able to run $2.50/gal fuel in the car it there must be more to it than that.

Doug

[remmers]

Doug,
To answer your question, I read in I believe it was the August Sportscar that they'll be opening up the use of all fuels, but testing a broader range of carcinogens and performance enhancers. To do this, they're going to be sending the fuel samples out for lab testing and getting back to you on it. Not the most efficient way. But hey, if it saves me $6/gal on fuel, I'm okay with it I guess.

[FV80]

For those of you salivating over PUMP fuel - keep in mind that if you use it, following each weekend you should empty the carb of fuel - and preferably the fuel PUMP. Regular pump gas is NOT intended to stay in vehicles for very long. The 'ethers' evaporate and leave a varnish type substance that coats and plugs jets and moving parts - like the butterfly, accelerator pump and EVERY jet in the carb. Regardless of pump fuel being allowed - *I* will stay with AvGas. It evaporates cleanly and I have no problems whatsoever cranking my engine after it sits for 6 months. And I did NO "prep" to make that possible other than using AvGas.

You can also add something like StaBil to control the issue. You are probably OK for about a month or so, but any longer than that and you SHOULD take some sort of action to prevent dastardly consequences before your next race. I have NO idea what effects StaBil (or it's equivalent) might have on engine performance. It's intended for lawn mowers and such where performance isn't much of an issue.
Steve

[smsazzy]

Not sure I would classify that as saving serious coin. We only use what, 10 gallons in a weekend? Pump Gas is $3/gallon, Track gas is $8.50. That saves $55 in a weekend and you have to deal with the headaches Steve points out. Also, what out for ethanol additives in your fuel cell.

I think I will stick to race fuel or av gas.