Formula Vee Meeting during the Runoffs

[Doug Carter]

...FV has always been a scoungers class and it should remain. It certainly was and could remain.

I speak only for myself when I say that a class like that is not something I want to participate in. If I can't buy a part off of the shelf somewhere <cough>Kent engine</cough>, it's a sure-fire way to keep new and younger racers out of the class. Trust me on this one, I speak from experience.

There are no 20-somethings that would rather be rummaging around a junkyard instead of racing their cars. I don't care how sexy or new the car looks, or how many wings or aero devices the car has, or how fast it will get you to the IRL, there is NO ONE under the age of 50 that wants to be scrounging for parts and pieces to make their race car work. That is a very difficult obstacle to overcome for younger racers. Like it or not, and you don't have to agree with it, but there are more racers than not who don't want to fiddle with fickle, leaky engines or dig through 60-year old junkyard parts to race.

If that's the honest truth about how current Vee drivers feel about this class and don't want anything different, then I'll happily plant my seat in a different class next year. It's unfortunate that my two favorite classes—both of which are supposed to be entry-level junior formulas—are both so rigor mortised and resistant to keeping themselves healthy, that they risk the very things that made them so popular and long-living in the first place—car counts, ease of immersion and low cost.




I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

[CitationFV21]

...FV has always been a scoungers class and it should remain. It certainly was and could remain.

I don't think "scrounger" (spl?) means the same as before. Although we do pride ourselves in that many parts of a FV can be fixed with a trip to the hardware or the local autoparts store. You can build a body out of fiberglass or aluminum, and fabricate most brackets and linkages in your basement. Anyone still have shift linkages made from Craftsman universals? <grin>. Maybe you don't do it on a National level, but people are running Regionals on very low budgets.

For example - I just did what someone suggested a few posts up - http://czracing.blogspot.com/2009/10/wh ... -cost.html

Now I don't use a radio, have transporter steering dampers as front shocks, and scrounge (that word again) used tires (Thanks Dave). It kills Steve P that my car is so behind in updates, but I still managed to finish no lower that 4th in any race this year. One of the great things about FV is that you can buy everything new, or build everything from scratch (including your engine - that's how I started), so it attracts a diverse group.

Lets put this in a different light. If one person in each division and each region, could buy an advantage over the rest - pure purchasing power - how long would it be before you had 12 cars at the Runoffs and 2 or 3 at the regional level......

Go back and read the first paragraph from the FV rules:

A. History and philosophy of the class
Formula Vee was recognized by SCCA in 1963. The class is highly
restricted, originally requiring the use of genuine VW parts “from the
standard Volkswagen 1200 Sedan Series type 1, US model sedan as
imported by VW” in the engine, drivetrain and suspension. Over the
years, the rules have changed slowly to maintain parts availability and
allow a gradual evolution of the class. However, the focus remains
the same: to provide a cost effective, highly competitive class that,
through consistent and tightly controlled component and preparation
rules, emphasizes driver ability rather than technological development
of the car. Today, as throughout its long history, FV is one of the most
highly subscribed classes in SCCA. The goal of these rules is to maintain
both the competitiveness and cost effectiveness of the class.

Any rule change has to be considered in this light or else go to Formula Ford or F5. Oh - I don't want to forget FST.

ChrisZ

[remmers]

Perhaps the manifold issue is the straw that broke the camels back. Maybe the cost escalation is tied to the lack of new blood. We’re trying to attract the “younger” generation, but no one wants to give up what they’ve worked so hard or paid so dearly for. I did a Google search for average annual incomes and came up with a few interesting numbers. For a man working full time the average as of 2007 was $45,113 and the average for those in the work force over the age of 14 was $26, 036. This number is most likely closer to the youth market we think we need to attract. I also did a search for new Formula Vee kits and only came up with the Caracal website and Fred advertises a roller for $14,500. I then came up with the Ski Motorsports website and the car that won the Brundage Cup at the last birthday party was for sale as a roller for $11,000. Both cars would make fine racecars after adding a motor for let’s say $5500, manifold $1200, Carb for maybe $300 and we’re at $21,500 for the Caracal and $18,000 for the Womer. No trailer, spares, driving suit, helmet, or competition license. Now figure what percentage those are of the incomes. The Caracal comes out to 82% of the “young blood’s” income the Womer 70% and even if you figure a roller at around $5000 plus motor, manifold and carb it still works out to 46% of income. The income figures were given as before tax numbers so the hit is even greater. So the spread is 47% to 82%. Two or three years ago there was a survey and the average income of a Runoffs driver was $250,000. Now apply those percentages to the Runoffs average income and you would be spending $117, 500 to $205,000 to race a Vee. I know, I know we’re all just skimming above the poverty level but we need to look at the market we want to attract and look at it from their view point. Next sit down and figure what you spend a weekend racing; tires, entry fees, motels (RV costs), fuel (tow and race car) and amortize all your other costs. Like trailer cost, crash damage, rebuilds, oil, spares, etc., etc. And you’ll come up with a number we’d all be reluctant to share with our wives. Regional costs would not be much lower with the exception of tires. I know of a driver that is on the verge of quitting because the regional fields are thin and he’s discouraged.Last race he did had four cars; one new driver, one using a rented car to keep his license and the other car was not very competitive. We can’t let this happen. So I really believe this is more than a manifold issue.

There is alot of truth to this, I make about that average 14+ income and everything that doesn't go into the racecar goes into student loans, and I have just enough money for about 1 race a month. I looked into getting my own car, but without somebody else paying for it, I lose a year of racing just to have my own car. I'm glad I have my dad's to run instead. (This is excluding rookie mistakes that cause damage to the car. You're looking at significant chunks of money that the average youth doesn't have if he wrecks the car even once. Spares were a Godsend this year for me and I think I probably could not have ran more than 4 races of the 8 i did this year had I needed to purchase spare parts before I could go racing again. Alas, I think the only road racing you could get into with a $30k/yr total income would be Karts. We're still a very budget-friendly class, I think I only spent about $10k this year, even with damages yet to be tallied. It's the initial investment that's the killer. Let's face it, you're not going to be able to purchase a car and go race the same year on such a small budget unless you're running in a fully street legal sort of racecar. (Like the studless ice racing my dad competed in last year where you buy a car and entry fees are $60/race and gas is the only other purchase item.)
SCCA in itself is on the expensive side for young enthusiasts. Has someone done a census to determine the average age of the current SCCA members, their income, and if they're young and low income if they get funded by older more wealthy relatives? I think that's part of the answer we're trying to find.
And yes, as Chris said. If you can buy an advantage you bet your bottom dollar everyone's gonna go for it. That's what I did with the manifolds when I just couldn't believe how I was getting eaten alive up the back stretch at Watkins Glen, even with the sort of breakaway I could pull between turns 1 and 2. Bought the manifold and I could finally hold my own up front. Perfect example of buying an advantage, But I'd like to think I just bought evening the odds a little.

[cendiv37]

"Bought the manifold and I could finally hold my own up front. Perfect example of buying an advantage, But I'd like to think I just bought evening the odds a little."

So why should evening the odds cost $1200 when it could cost $350?

Why should buying a whole"crate" engine for an (admittedly already converted) FF cost $2500 and a manifold for an FV cost over $1000.

Why pay $1000 for a scrounged and tortured junk yard refugee?

[CenDiv20]

Simple............ add "another" class to the SCCA. Like they dont have enough already!

FV drivers that wanted all these changes in the past went the route of FST. Apparently this has not been taken as an option to a resonable amount of FV drivers. Keep your cars, sell off the FV motor/drivetrain for what you can, you got your moneys worth out of it... it is obsolete. Get with Harley find out what a stock Harley Davidson base engine costs and develop FVH. Formula Vee Harley, sounds crazy... but might work. You now can attract the idea of an off the shelf motor, with no tampering of engine components, completely stock. Imagine the sound of 20-30-40 + cars running down the straights at RA with a Harley motor and open exhaust.

Now you just instantly attracted the Harley Davidson followers (new drivers) and eliminated parts concerns (Harley shops are in every major city). As additional components of the FV become more scarce start using the aftermarket components that are all readily available.

This is going to be a long winter...

[P-2 Mark]

Cendiv20,

If I'm going to put a motorcycle engine in my Vee (no way), it won't be a H-D motor but
rather something available from Japan, which are more reliable and generate more
HP per cc etc....

GrapeFarmer Al,

I generally agree with your post, but why do newbie's have to buy new kits? Most us started out
in second hand Vee's that were available for $5k-$10k, ready to race. They were NOT nationally
competitive, but neither we're most of us during our first several years of racing so it didn't
matter. As we get better and fine tune our skills, then it's time to move up to better equipment
that would allow us to be move up the grid. As I said before, the second part of your post is
dead on and let's hope this economy improves so we can get back to larger fields..

Mark

[GrapeFarmerAl]

Mark,

You're correct, but even a $5000 ready to race Vee will be 20% of a "young Blood's" pre tax income.

Al

PS If we went to HD motors do you think SCCA would permit us to wear cut off jeans jackets, chrome half helmets and would our wives/girlfriends need to get tatoos on their lower backs.

[pillowmeto]

Get with Harley find out what a stock Harley Davidson base engine costs and develop FVH. Formula Vee Harley, sounds crazy... but might work.

I had a long discussion about this with some local racers before. After much thought, the harley engine is the only one we could come up with in the 60-100hp range that had been around for more than 30 years and is going to be around for at least another 10. It may work better in a f500 chassis though.

Im not saying I approve FVH, just adding some comfort that you are not alone in this idea.

[brian]

Here we go again. Believe me when I say you don't want a Harley. Ever see how many are stopped on the roadside? Give me a Honda or any modern Japanese engine anytime. Why not a Subaru? There are adapters to fit one to our trannies, it's much more modern than any air cooled motor and we maybe we could get the company to spec an engine for us and seal it! Hang a couple of radiators on the vee and let's go. I hate to pop the First bubble but putting newer old parts on a vee is not going to cut it with the young folks. I'd venture a guess that there might have been in total, a dozen young drivers at the Runoffs this year. Two of them were in vees. We attended a circle track race in Wisconsin during the Runoffs and there were plenty of kids driving the clunker classes. No insurance, little or no safety and a fair grounds horse track. Sound like fun? Truth be know, SCCA, regardless of class, is completely out of reach for most citizens of any age.

I took my car to a Bug-in and had all kinds of people ask questions and want to get envolved. But when they hear it costs $200 to join and get a license, $600 to enter a school, $500 to $1000 for safety gear and oh yea, a legal car to participate, they loose interest. If the club really wants to increase it's ranks the buy-in has to change.

[wroché29]

Yep. Me and 3 other vee drivers (they'll remain nameless) just ran a 24 hour race at Nelson Ledges in a $500 Subaru Impreza. Had a blast, and were WAY the oldest people there!!

[SR Racing]

I hate to pop the First bubble but putting newer old parts on a vee is not going to cut it with the young folks..

Of course not. The kids are going to need Family support. When we did the F2000 Pro series, it was probably 75% kids (30 and under) and some in their teens. And they were spending close to 100K a year for a rental season. Vee's are never going to be in that class, but the F2000's atract kids. The Vee's don't. The FST's come a lot closer.
I have the American iron and rice Rice Burner kids in here every day. They think Vee's are funny. They are mildly impressed with FST. It isn't the only answer, but it is a step.

[cendiv37]

Minutes of the Runoff's FV Meeting are now posted in the Committee News section below.

http://www.formulavee.org/interchange/v ... =15&t=3436

I figured that was fair since I was asked to put the official minutes together

[Mystique Racing]

Last year the average age of a SCCA member was 49. I would suspect that this year it is 50.

I know of two national level FV's that are currently up for sale. Both ran in the top 10 at the runoffs and both are selling for less than $6,000.00 ea.

I know that the economy is down but I don't think the money is what is killing FV.

[butchdeer]

FV was based on the fact that cars could be built with a supply of cheap and available parts. This is not true today. It does require scrounging to find pre 1965 parts. When Al Varcins said FV was always a scroungers class I think he ment he was always a scrounger. He was a scrounger when He and Mike had a FC car.
When Al started in FV he could have come into DRE on any given day and walked out with enough parts to complete the building of any FV Kit avialable at the time. Today that is simply not true. There is not a supplier around(or combination of 2 or 3) that can supply everything you need whithout going to ebay or samba or finding sources from junk yards. Call around and try to buy a front beam or brake back plates. If you are new find a one source place for 8 wheels for slicks or rains.
If we want to get fresh blood into FV we need to look a a future that brings us back to the Original idea of cheap(That is a relative staement) and available parts. Limited production reproductions are not going to be cheap. If we don't look ahead past our collective noses Fv will just slowly dwindle away. It is already a fraction of its former self. If we just want more of the same perhaps we should look for new people by advertising on Samba and Ebay were the scroungers lurk.
Butch

[jpetillo]

When I looked into joining SCCA & FV back in '86, the low end cars cost $5000 and the two racing schools for $600 (total) were enough to keep me off the track. I just couldn't afford it at the time. When I started in '07, I could get a car for $5000 (I spent a little bit more), and the double-school was $300 for one weekend. Oh, and when I raced motorcycles in the late '80's the cost of a hotel room was no less than what I pay now. So, the cost of getting started is not terrible compared with over 20 years ago. Perhaps tires and other things are more expensive now, but a lot of us starting out could run a set for a season and still do. I keep hearing high costs for getting started in FV on this forum, but I don't know many drivers that started out for half those prices. Perhaps that's why we have such large field in the NE - we still run on the cheap.

About Harley engines, it's not something that will attract young drivers!

[Bill_Bonow]

Bob Stack wrote and wanted me to post this for him. He asked for corrections to be made for login issues, but no luck.

Here is his thoughts:

Bill:

Since I cannot get into the FV Interchange no matter I do or how many times I've asked Rob to fix the problem, I'm giving up on it - not worth the effort.

'However, I have been reading the posts in the Runoffs FV Meeting (can read but can't log in a post) and would like to make some comments. I'd apprciate it if one of you would be kind enough to copy and paste my commnets.

Greetings all. My name is Bob Stack, and I am a "new" FV driver in 2009. I'm 50 so hardly a young blood, but honestly we're kidding ourselves if we think young people will have even a passing interest in FV. It is a class for middle age guys who want to race without breaking the bank - which is why I joined in the first place and why I'm now seriously considering a conversion to FST.

I was at the meeting at RA too. In fact, I took off work for the afternoon for no reason other than to come up to the meeting. As a first year, regional driver, I walked away with one impression, and one only - they don't want me and they don't care what my opinion is. Why do think that? Well, for one thing, I actually took the time to send an e-mail before the meeting with a fairly comrehensive proposal/suggestion for the future of FV. I was told that it was one of the few responses actually receieved and that it would certainly be passed along to the "powers that be" So imagine my surprise when, after driving over an hour and taking off work for the afternoon just for this purpose, we finally got to the "discussion" about the future of FV. The "discussion" consisted of "Let's vote - who wants no changes?" - I think me and one or two others were the only hands that did not go up. "Ok great, next subject" Apparently the proposal/suggestion that I wasted my time preparing (which was asked for if you'll recall) ended up in the circular file becasue there was certianly no reference made to any having been submitted.


The notion that people are willing to pay $1000+ for a manifold just proved to me that I actually can't afford to run in FV, at least not if I want to have a chance in hell of placing. So why beat my head agisnt the wall with needing two transmissions, cost prohibitive engine rebuilds, overly expensive tires, only yo get out classed by cars that I can get into and operate at a comprarable or lower cost.

One final thought - the HD suggestion is actually interesting and would probably make me pretty intereted in staying in the class. Contrary to the suggestion that they are not reliable, and with all due respect, you are not talking about the EVO motors. I'd suggest that a 1200 Sporty motor would not only be a more or less bullet proof package, but would alos move these cars around the track in a pretty impressive fashion. I also think it in fact would attract "kids" to the class.

I can't reply to any comments to post becasue for some reason the Interchange can't seem to find a way to let me log in and post anymore. It can't be that hard, but I'v e-mailed Rob so many times that I'm sure he's as sick of me as I am of trying to create new user names to see if that works (it doensn't Rob).

Bob Stack
FV 13 CenDiv
Hartland, WI

[cendiv37]

Bob (Bill please forward this to Bob),

I apologize for not reading all of the letters we had received prior to the FV meeting during that meeting. However, if I had started the live meeting by doing so, the meeting itself would have lasted only an hour since that's when my computer battery died. Only then would I have had to stop reading the letters. Then we could have started a meeting of those present...

It would have been lovely to have had the luxury to have read all the letters. I stood ready to do so IF there had been any break in the discussions going on during the meeting. Then my computer battery died. As it was, I barely got a word in edgewise at the meeting and if you know me that's hard to believe! Seriously, I felt I could best serve the effort by taking notes. Maybe we should have had a time limit per speaker so more people would have gotten a chance to speak. We didnt. Sorry. We weren't that prepared.

I have copies of all the letters received by Steve Davis prior to the meeting. That is the basis of my post: "Ideas from letters received prior to FV Runoffs Meeting" in the committee section. We (the committee) have discussed publishing them here but have so far chosen not to do so because we aren't sure the senders would want us to. Many are written in a very personal style so it doesn't look like they thought the actual letter would be published for all the world to see. I chose to cull the ideas presented as best I could and post that summary here.

We are now receiving more letters from those who have been copied on the just published meeting minutes (through the FV Registry). We will probably figure out some way to publish a summary of this new input here.

As discussed at the meeting, we are also trying to get a better list of the active SCCA FV drivers from SCCA itself. We plan to use it to better communicate with those active in the class. Maybe we will be able to send out proposals and get real votes as feedback.

For now, we are in a data collection phase. We will be trying to organize the ideas everyone has submitted in some way so we can present options to the FV community on how should proceed.

Considering we typically receive suggestions ranging from "stop changing ANYTHING, you are ruining the class" to "change EVERYTHING or the class will die tomorrow" and everything in between, you can see how finding common ground might be difficult...

[hardingfv32-1]

Bob Stack

Your feelings are quite normal for someone new to the class. It takes a little hands-on time to see exactly how the game is played. You are completely correct about the difficulties and high costs of FV racing. This, unfortunately for you, is how the majority has chosen operate the class. From your statements it would seem doubtful that you are going to be with the class for many years. New drivers seldom last more than 3-5 years before they decide that this is not what they want. While everything you say about costs is completely true, it simply does not sway the majority at this time. It will take a Herculean effort to change this attitude. You will not be able accomplish any such effort using this forum.

We are all about the status quo, not new membership. If you have some strange commitment to beat us at OUR game, then go for it. We might even listen to your ideas eventually! (edited)

Brian

[Edward Schubert]

"We are all about the status quo, not new membership. If you have some strange commitment to be us at OUR game, then we are happy to have you. We might even listen to your ideas eventually!

Brian"

I hope there is some sarcasm in this statement, if not I have to wonder why I have spent hour upon hour restoring a Vee so I can have some fun next year. I guess unless I am willing to tote the line I am not welcome. Ideas and comments from newbies appear to unwelcome from you.

[hardingfv32-1]

I'm all about sarcasm... Of coarse everyone is welcome. I'll edit my previous statement.

If you can beat us without spending as much money and time, more power to you. I'll be the first to complement you. Just don't whine when you find it takes more time and money than you thought. We already know that.

We have also heard ALL the newbie comments and ideas a million times before and have chosen to ignore them. They are not unwelcome. The majority just chooses not to act on them. It is going to take a LOT more than a posted thread or sent letter. I want to see some effort both on and off the track before I'm going to listen.

You spent time restoring your car because it was fun. NOTHING I say can stop you from having fun racing your FV.

Brian

[jpetillo]

Ed,

I believe that Brian's comments are true - that newcomers get listened to the least. This is true about anything, and not a trait solely of FV. The old guard have been through it all and know better, sort of like parents! Parents don't always listen to children because they know we don't have their experience. That being said, a good argument is a good argument, so pass it on up the chain.

A concern I think we share is that the future of FV will be decided by the national program folks, as they probably have the most into the sport and vocal at the top level. I'm sure this is true. That's fine for us new drivers as long as their interests are also those of the regional drivers. That's not clear at this time.

I personally think the best approach to being heard is to talk with those that are involved in the national scene, which includes drivers, vendors (like those advertising above), and the steering committee members. What I found is that the opinions are varied, but there is a lot of historical reasons for future directions to take. Some of those we do need to learn from, and some are probably baggage at this point. But, all historical points are valid in some respect and we as newcomers will have a much better chance of being heard if we understand the past and folks we speak our minds to know we understand that.

Another thing Brian said was probably true, that many drivers quit after 4-5 years or so. There are many reasons for that and only a few can be helped by the steering committee redirecting the future of FV. I would suggest to the steering committee to try to understand the reasons behind this and weigh that heavily when they help direct the future of FV. Keeping the new drivers longer is important. It might get them over that 4-5 year hill.

John

[Edward Schubert]

I have been involved in racing for over 35 years and fully understand money helps you get to the front. If someone gets into racing and doesn't understand this they either got poor advise or did not do their research. After following this forum I fully understant that the "Old Guard" is going to get what they want and do not take excepton to this.....this was not a suprise....as it is the same in many other racing organizatons. I plan on racing and having fun yet at the same time I will make evey attempt to keep the cost down. I will NEVER spend $1200 for an intake. I have no problem with racing in my "class" and looking to compete with those that approach racing the same as I do. Suprizingly I have won races in the past using this approach! Good luck to those that spend a gazillion dollars and feel the rush when they win. I will be smiling at the end of a weekend if I can row the car on my open trailer and all four wheels are still on the car. Hell maybe the day will come that I pass a Monster Manie! I look forward to learning from the old guard and have had nothing but wonderful experiences with the VEE family.

[brian]

The one thing no one has mentioned is that FV is a community and many of the vee folks will bend over backwards to help a newbie. I will never turn any question or request for help away. There isn't a better reason to join the vee crowd than to get to know all the folks.
If you do not like the direction that vees are going I'd respectfully suggest that you look at other classes. No one that I know has done anything to inhibit the growth of F First. The class is there if you want it. Just don't try to convince me my class is messed up and dying.

In the spirit of great vee racing and cost reduction, BRM Engineering is offerring a special on tranny rebuilds this winter. Take the axles off, drain the oil and send us the center section. For a low fee of $250 for labor, we will dissassemble, clean inspect and recondition as necessary. Freight and parts will be extra. Call today for an appointment, there will be a limit on how many we can do this winter. Just in case you didn't know, 6 of the vees at the Runoffs had BRM trannies.

[CitationFV21]

If you do not like the direction that vees are going I'd respectfully suggest that you look at other classes.

One of the problems is that with almost 40 classes on a Regional Level, some people end up in the wrong class. People start off in FC or GT2 when they should be in FV or IT. There are some people who get in to FV becuase it is inexpensive (it is compared to other classes) but then find they don't like seeing those tire things in front of them

With the Internet, every class has a forum. I spoke to some FF and FC drivers this last week and I can call this a universal truth - all classes have issues. Even Spec Racer and FE - spec cars - have problems every few years. So let's put some things in perspective, FV is not doing too bad.

Now I will be blunt with some people out there. Even if you bought Mike's car right out from underneath him after the Runoffs - you probably will not go faster than you are now - you are the limiting part in the car. For most drivers, new tires will make more of a difference than a manifold, and track time more than anything else.

While FV competitors are very helpful in giving advise on how to make the car go faster - very few know how to teach someone how to driver faster. Test days and practice days are things of the past, although computer simulations are starting to be the replacement for these. We lose drivers because they think they are not competitive becuase they don't have the trick stuff - the fact is they either don't have or have not developed the driving skills to be competitive. Teaching driving is an area that we can improve on as a class and might help keep people longer.

ChrisZ

[SR Racing]

Now I will be blunt with some people out there. Even if you bought Mike's car right out from underneath him after the Runoffs - you probably will not go faster than you are now - you are the limiting part in the car.

A great thing about the class and ABSOLUTELY true for 50+% of the cars out there. We have dyno'ed dozens of cars on the way to the run-off's, rebuilds of EVERY builder's engines, home builts, $7500 engines and $2000 engines. The vast majority of those would be in the front 10 when driven by Mike, Brad, Steven, etc. (The same 10 that finished up front in the RO.) Manifolds and headers and aero will change the mix of the front of the field, but the drivers skill and experience and prep will get the car up front. The vast majority of technology has been milked out of the ACVW. The differece in output across any good built engines is nil. The greatest change in HP in the last 15 years has been the intake and headers to a lesser degree. So, an investment of $1200 in technology over 15 years is what we are talking about. In my mind this was caused by a rules interpretation/clarification issue. If it were not for that a 15+ year old engine would be performing just as well as any other. Not a bad class concept.