Tires?

[smsazzy]

Do you know that a Waterford Hills weekend is $205 (SCCA member price, $150 for members) for one qualifying and 3 races, need to have a muffler, but there was only 3 vees at the last event all running on old used tires. I'm a big supporter of spec tires

Wait a second, I thought cheap tires and entry fees meant we were going to have fields of 30 cars again?

Seriously guys, why not propose it at a regional level and use that as the test bed to determine a tire. As you said, SM and SRF both picked a lousy tire, and they had thousands of dollars of testing and research that went into it. How are we going to accomplish that without starting this on a regional level.

I personally still do not want a spec tire for national racing, but if the majority want it (which it doesn't seem is clear one way or the other, just two vocal minorities arguing on a forum at this point) then let's do it right and get a lot of data to start. Maybe we can get the advisory committee to work with a few regions with larger participation to get a spec tire rule implemented in those regions. I am sure San Francisco region would be happy to share the information they have on the American Racer.

It would also be nice to have everyone who is involved in the debate make it known their status as a vee driver. (Current Regional, Current National, Former Reg/Nat, Perspective Vee driver, etc.) There seem to be some posts from people on here that don't even race FV anymore just stirring the pot.

[Bill_Bonow]

It would also be nice to have everyone who is involved in the debate make it known their status as a vee driver. (Current Regional, Current National, Former Reg/Nat, Perspective Vee driver, etc.) There seem to be some posts from people on here that don't even race FV anymore just stirring the pot.

Stephen,

I reviewed each of the posts listed here and from my perspective as a former FV racer for 23 years, pretty much everyone posting falls into one of your listed catagories. If I am the suspected "pot stirring" poster, please accept my apology if I have presented my points or remarks incorrectly. I was replying to Brian McCarthy's comments that the spec tire concept will not work (no stipulation on Regional/National racing or even classification of car). I simply pointed out that from what I have witnessed, I feel that his point is not universally valid.

[smsazzy]

Bill,

I am not saying that we don't want everyones opinion, as a matter of fact, I think it is valuable to get others feedback. I just think it would be good for everyone to know who has a dog in this fight, so to speak, and who is just giving their opinion.

Owning an FV does not make someone an FV driver if they have moved on to another class. Planning to buy an FV does not make someone an FV driver either per se. But I think having all those opinions in the debate is still valuable. I think it would just be good to have everyone know if that's someones place in this debate.

Does anyone have any objection to proposing to the FV advisory committee that we want to use the regional racing as a test bed for a spec tire for all in the future? I think this is the best interim step, and it has been proven very easy to do in other regions.

[Matt King]

I would really like to open the discussion about spec tires here in Cendiv for regionals. We have a couple of classes with successful experience using them (FST and CFF) so it should not come across as an alien concept to those racing here.

[brian]

I didn't say a spec tire wouldn't work, just that the selection process is very complicated. Bill, you guys are doing very well with a hard tire and that is the basis for any spec tire. I think the width of the FST tire has a lot to do with your success but I don't think thats the path for vees since it requires the cost of new rims as well. Having never driven a FST I don't know what the effect of those wide tires are but the FM's I've driven are over tired and feel like trucks. I enjoy the liveliness of a vee and know that over grippy tires slows me down.

The key in this issue is to get the hundreds of vee drivers, who don't post on forums, to get into this discussion.

[Rickydel]

Planning to buy an FV does not make someone an FV driver either per se.

Stephen,
If growing FV fields is the objective, then heck yes, prospective buyers of FV should be heard as well. They may not have a dog in the fight, but if a rule change prompts them to buy a dog, well then... Obviously, their opinion may have to be weighed differently because they don't have a vested interest in the class, but how many of them would be involved if there were a spec tire? How many would steer away? That kind of information needs to be known.

So yes, your suggestion about knowing if the "voter" is a Nat. driver, Reg. driver, Ex. driver, prospective driver, is a very good idea.

I usually run a tire for 3 races, 3 qualifying sessions then 3 practice or test sessions.

Shoot, that's one typical race weekend for us in VSCDA, and I run a set of tires for a season.

I ran a spec tire in Club Ford in the NE, and loved it. I run Vintage Vees today. It is because I buy a set of tires for the season I run Vintage Vee. I would run SCCA Vee if there were a comparable spec tire. Actually, there are FV series run in other countries that use the Dunlop tire we use in Vintage Vee.

[remmers]

I think part of the other reason the Canadian 1200's get so many competitors is that it's still considered a feeder class for moving up to semi-pro and pro rides. Correct me if I'm wrong about that Greg. Personally I'd be up for seeing if we can't run pro-vee style races as support series when big boys come to town not unlike the F2000 series (FC) does.

[smsazzy]

Stephen,
If growing FV fields is the objective, then heck yes, prospective buyers of FV should be heard as well.

I agree, which is why I said in the following sentence: "But I think having all those opinions in the debate is still valuable. I think it would just be good to have everyone know if that's someones place in this debate."

So in other words, we still need those opinions, but we need to weigh them appropriately when viewed next to those who are actually currently spending money entering races and supporting the class today.

[FV80]

...Personally I'd be up for seeing if we can't run pro-vee style races as support series when big boys come to town not unlike the F2000 series (FC) does.

We did that for several years - but when Valvoline pulled out, that left NO MONEY to pay entrants to tow far enough to make the numbers (entrants) high enough to put on a good show. It started fairly well, and then dwindled off (as most things do). There have been several suggestions to start the same sort of thing again, but it takes $$$MONEY$$$ to make a show and there is little of that to go around. It also takes SOMEONE(s) to setup, organize, arrange, bargain, argue, take a (BIG) risk that no one will show, make it happen, etc.

Things that SOUND like great ideas, often fall apart because no single (or few) individuals actually have the time and impetus to MAKE IT HAPPEN. A shame, but simple fact. A **LOT** of effort goes into things like that from somewhere. If it doesn't by nature put FANS IN THE SEATS, then only $$MONEY$$ overrides it.

OTOH - if someone(s) were to actually MAKE SUCH ARRANGEMENTS and $$PAY$$ enough money to offset at least most of the expenses, I imagine folks would show up ... at least those that could make it with under a 10 hour tow. Note the effort that was put forth ealier this year at the Kentucky ??? someplace in KY, anyway <G> ... and not enough signed up to make it worth the promoter's time. (because (I guess) there was NO MONEY to cover any expenses for racers). Most of us are just racing for points ... in SCCA. What is that "worth"?? Not much, but it's tough to give up whatever it IS worth to go do something that is basically TOTALLY WORTH $$NOTHING$$ beyond being in front of "some" spectators...

Steve

[smsazzy]

Okay, I have spoken to Hoosier and are still waiting to hear back from GY regarding a spec tire.

If people really want to do this, I will get on board.

We're going to need a few things:

1- I am happy to take the lead in creating a proposal to send to SCCA, but only after we have some solid data. This will require feedback from many sources. I would like to get a list of people who would like to have a constructive say. Please email me if you are interested. I am going to select about 5-10 competitors, 1 or 2 tire distributors, and a few key FV people to help.

2- We are going to need a group of people who are willing to test a set of tires at their own expense. I am sure we can get a couple sets of tires, but as far as the cost of the test day, etc. that would fall to you. If you are willing please email me.

3- If you are willing to contribute financially to the process, that would be great. I am sure we will have some expenses. If you are willing, send me an email with the amount you are willing to contribute. Don't send me any money yet, but please be prepared to keep your commitment when we come knocking.

Lastly, don't expect the process to be quick. We will have a lot of work to do in the next year to make this happen.

Stephen Saslow
saslow(at)comcast(dot)net

[P-2 Mark]

I'm on board for a "Spec Tire" at the regional level, and if the national drivers want to
get on board as well, then good! But I wouldn't muddy the waters and would only focus
on the regional level, which you may be doing just that at the moment. Thanks for
your efforts with this matter!!

Mark Farnham

[smsazzy]

I am looking at this from a national perspective.

If anyone wants to do it at a regional level, they should approach their region to add the spec tire into the Regional Sup's, just like San Francisco and other regions have done.

[problemchild]

From the FF spec tire discussion .... profound comments from Bill Steele ....

.... when you are trying to get a spec tire rule through, you will always have the flat earth contingent of "old hands" that will swear up and down that new tires each race are the only way to run up front. For these numbskulls, the only argument that works is the "even if you buy new tires each race, you are still going to save lots of money", hence the importance of an inexpensive tire.

Of course, after a few seasons when everyone (including the flat earth folks) get a chance to see how little is to be gained running new tires each race and how much is to be saved by actually managing tires, then everyone settles in and loves the hard compound spec tires. It is just all the noise and preconceived notions that have to be delt with up front.

[hardingfv32-1]

So what is your plan to get through the noise and preconceived notions? It is time for you spec tire lovers to hit the ground and make something happen.

Brian

[problemchild]

From the FF section on Apexspeed ...

Proposal for a control tire for FF

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been working with several others to develop a proposal to be submitted to the CRB which will suggest that the following steps be taken toward the possible adoption of a control tire for FF in 2011:

1. Solicit input from the membership as to whether a control tire is desired for the class.

2. If there is sufficient desire for a control tire, adopt a protocol for the evaluation and selection of a single tire for both regional and national Formula Ford based on the criteria most important to competitors (ie cost of tires, duarability, etc).

3. Put out a solicitation for bids from manufacturers who wish to compete for a contract to have exclusive rights to provide the control tire for FF for a pre-determined number of years.

4. After the bids are received, implement a tire testing program in 2010 for the selection of the tire that best meets the criteria desired by competitors.

Here are some criteria that will be part of the proposal to be submitted; any input here as to alternative or additional criteria would be appreciated, and of course everyone will have an opportunity to also make their thoughts known directly to the CRB when it solicits input:

a. The control tire must be a slick. Front size will be 20 x 7.0-13. Rear size will be 22.5 x 7.5-13. (There will be no prohibition against using the control front tire on all 4 corners of the car.)

b. The control tire shall cost significantly less than current tires available from Goodyear and Hoosier. In return, the manufacturer chosen will be awarded exclusive rights to supply both regional and national SCCA races for "X" number of years.

c. The control tire for the class shall offer no competitive advantage during its first heat cycle.

d. The control tire shall be capable of maintaining consistent performance and lap times over the course of "X" number of heat cycles. "X" to be determined but it is anticipated that a tire capable of a minimum of 20-25 heat cycles is feasible based on past experience.

e. Competitors shall qualify and race on the same tires. This will eliminate the use of multiple sets of tires per race and competitors using new tires every race.

Manufacturers of current FF tires would have the option of submitting bids to provide an already existing tire if they feel it meets the criteria desired or of developing a new tire that better meets our needs.


Tom Valet

[problemchild]

When this rough draft (above) for a FF Control Tire Proposal was posted on Apexspeed, there was 21 posts within 17 hours, all offering support and suggestions about content, wording, and application. This proposal push is being generated by National level drivers who are saying "Why are we spending all this money, when we can run cheaper, harder tires and maintain the status quo". The leaders of this proposal both own national-winning Swift DB-6s (which are $50K cars). It costs more than that (reportedly about $70K) to put a new National-winning FF on track today. How come these guys are concerned about the unnecassary tire expense and have decided they can fix their problem.

If nothing else, the FV community could plug in appropriate numbers and initiate a parallel proposal to the FF proposal for a control tire for 2011. This would send a clear message to the membership, SCCA officials, and the tire manufacturers. Formula racers have had enough and it is time for positive change!

[problemchild]

FV Control Tire Proposal

1) Adopt a protocol for the evaluation and selection of a single tire for both regional and national Formula Vee based on the criteria most important to competitors (ie cost of tires, duarability, etc).

2) Put out a solicitation for bids from suppliers who wish to compete for a contract to have exclusive rights to provide the control tire for FV for a pre-determined number of years.

3) After the bids are received, implement a tire testing program in 2010 for the selection of the tire that best meets the criteria desired by competitors.

4) The supplier chosen will be awarded exclusive rights to supply both regional and national SCCA FV races for "X" number of years at specified prices.

5) The control tire is mandatory for 2011 and beyond. Used non-control tires will be grandfathered for 2011 regional events.

6) Assuming that the selected tire is a "slick", the supplier must also supply a control wet tire. The wet control tire will be mandatory for National events in 2012 and beyond. The wet control tire will be mandatory for Regional events in 2014 and beyond.

Criteria for FV Control Tire Selection

a) Rear tires will have a minimum circumferance of "C" (circumferance of current 22.5 X 5.5 X 15").There will be no prohibition against using the rear control tire on all 4 corners of the car and it is suggested that the testing program explore this option. If separate front and rear control tires are selected, the front control tire will be for front use only.

b) The control tire for the class shall offer no competitive advantage during its first heat cycle.

c) The control tire shall be capable of maintaining consistent performance and lap times over the course of "Y" number of heat cycles. "Y" to be determined but it is anticipated that a tire capable of a minimum of 15-20 heat cycles is feasible based on past experience.

d) Any alternate wheel/tire options will maintain a minimum rear tire circumferance of "C". Alternate wheel/tire options that offer dry/wet service will be considered.

e) It is requested that suppliers consider the option of larger circumference tires such as the previous 23.0 sizes.

[Matt King]

From the FF spec tire discussion .... profound comments from Bill Steele ....

.... when you are trying to get a spec tire rule through, you will always have the flat earth contingent of "old hands" that will swear up and down that new tires each race are the only way to run up front. For these numbskulls, the only argument that works is the "even if you buy new tires each race, you are still going to save lots of money", hence the importance of an inexpensive tire.

Of course, after a few seasons when everyone (including the flat earth folks) get a chance to see how little is to be gained running new tires each race and how much is to be saved by actually managing tires, then everyone settles in and loves the hard compound spec tires. It is just all the noise and preconceived notions that have to be delt with up front.

Profound indeed. It never ceases to amaze me how many of these people refuse to acknowledge the THOUSANDS of racers who have run successfully for decades on spec tires in numerous series on ovals, dragstrips, and other road racing sanctioning bodies. They have zero experience with spec tires but assume they are not viable despite the overwhelming evidence that they are working very successfully all over the country. Your proposal would have my vote.

[P-2 Mark]

I second Matt's comments! Go Greg!

Mark

[Speedsport]

people refuse to acknowledge the THOUSANDS of racers who have run successfully for decades on spec tires in numerous series on ovals, dragstrips, and other road racing sanctioning bodies

Don't confuse a series running a spec tire with series running a spec tire that has been an advantage to the drivers. I do not know of a single series / class using a spec slick race tire that have proven to be to benefit to the drivers. Besides FST, which gets away with it due to it's oversize tire, every class I know using a spec tire has drivers complaining about magic heat cycles, the number of laps they are good for, ect.

DUE TO THE COMPETITION BETWEEN CURRENT TIRE MANUFACTURERS, we have evolved into having very consistant tires with very little cost increase. I'll bet many national drivers are getting 2 full races out of a set of tires now. I'm still scratching my head over why tires and manifolds, two of the most stable things in our class, have become the source of so much debate.

Both Hoosier and Goodyear have been excellent at supporting our racing, with little cost increase in their product, rewarding contingency, and continued developement towards better / longer lasting tires. I'm amazed that people want to take that away.

[problemchild]

I am sorry but to brag that FV tires last 2 weekends is just a reflection on how sad the tire situation is. Two weekends is nothing to brag about!

Even if the day comes when I would get free tires and free intake manifolds .... I would rather have to buy a set of tires per year and buy a spec intake manifold, if it meant that the regular racers would all have reduced savings and improved competitiveness on reasonable budgets. If oversize tires are required to make a good control tire, so be it. [BTW, If it was up to me alone, I would spec a 23.0 X 5.5 (Hoosier 60 or Goodyear 600 or American Racer * compound) on all 4 corners and one wet tire from each ..... it would be done.]

The only reason to mandate a spec tire is for the benefit of the competitors .... that is the whole concept!

Copied from previous page ....
FV Control Tire Proposal

1) Adopt a protocol for the evaluation and selection of a single tire for both regional and national Formula Vee based on the criteria most important to competitors (ie cost of tires, duarability, etc).

2) Put out a solicitation for bids from suppliers who wish to compete for a contract to have exclusive rights to provide the control tire for FV for a pre-determined number of years.

3) After the bids are received, implement a tire testing program in 2010 for the selection of the tire that best meets the criteria desired by competitors.

4) The supplier chosen will be awarded exclusive rights to supply both regional and national SCCA FV races for "X" number of years at specified prices.

5) The control tire is mandatory for 2011 and beyond. Used non-control tires will be grandfathered for 2011 regional events.

6) Assuming that the selected tire is a "slick", the supplier must also supply a control wet tire. The wet control tire will be mandatory for National events in 2012 and beyond. The wet control tire will be mandatory for Regional events in 2014 and beyond.

Criteria for FV Control Tire Selection

a) Rear tires will have a minimum circumferance of "C" (circumferance of current 22.5 X 5.5 X 15").There will be no prohibition against using the rear control tire on all 4 corners of the car and it is suggested that the testing program explore this option. If separate front and rear control tires are selected, the front control tire will be for front use only.

b) The control tire for the class shall offer no competitive advantage during its first heat cycle.

c) The control tire shall be capable of maintaining consistent performance and lap times over the course of "Y" number of heat cycles. "Y" to be determined but it is anticipated that a tire capable of a minimum of 15-20 heat cycles is feasible based on past experience.

d) Any alternate wheel/tire options will maintain a minimum rear tire circumferance of "C". Alternate wheel/tire options that offer dry/wet service will be considered.

e) It is requested that suppliers consider the option of larger circumference tires such as the previous 23.0 sizes.

[P-2 Mark]

Greg,

I don't think the average Vee driver realizes that the CF tire used by the FST gang lasts the
entire year, and NOT only two weekends. Having driven both Vee's and FST's, I can tell you
that my tire budget for the FST was 1/3 to 1/4 the Vee tires in a given year. Why would
you want to spend $500 every other weekend on tires when a "spec" tire would cost the
driver $500 for the entire year &/or 25 + heat cycles. I raced a FST with that many heat
cycles and was still running mid-pack against very good driver's, so the drop off in grip
is minimal with each cycle. I would think that the goal of our class and each driver is
to increase class participation, and a durable tire that lasts many heat cycles is ONE
of the several steps needed to get former and future drivers onto the track. Just my
two cents worth...

Mark

[problemchild]

There are 10 positive spec tire stories out there for every negative one. Criticizing spec tires is just fear mongering. Some have pointed out SRF as having a poor one, but I investigated SRF this summer and most SRF racers listed the spec tires as one of the attracting features of the class. While I agree that it may not be the best example, tire life was still better than current FV expectations.

Virtually every successful race series in the world has a control tire. Local oval tracks have learned that it improves competitor turn-out, often by as simple a rule as requiring a specific left rear.

[Speedsport]

NO WAY is the SRF tire a better example then the current FV tire situation. I raced a couple of nationals in a SRF last season, and I can assure you, the current SRF tire has a magic heat cycle in them, and tire management is very important to them. They do not last any longer then our current FV tires, and they have a bigger difference between heat cycles.

Again, please provide examples of where a slick spec tire has proven to be a benefit to the drivers. Greg, you state "Virtually every successful race series in the world has a control tire." You can not make the assumption that class is successful because of the tire. Most classes / series that run a spec tire do so due to a tire sponsor providing prize money. My understanding is in a lot of those situations, the drivers all agree the tires suck.

I want examples where the drivers state that the tires last as long as you are claiming you want them to. I do not count FST. As I mentioned earlier, the tire is so much larger then needed for the car.

[problemchild]

So, SRF would be better with an open tire rule?

It sounds like they could use a better control tire, but why should it be open? That would be disasterous.

I think the East Coast Pro F2000 series is an excellent example of how the control tire rules have been a hugh part of the success of the best attended Formula car series in North America.
Other series where spec tires are to the benefit of drivers and teams.
F1, IRL, Indylights, FBMW, F1200, Sprint Cup, Nationwide, etc.
I cannot think of any modern racing series with open tires. I think even WoO now has controls on tires.

It would be so ironic if FF were to adopt a control tire rule and FV did not. Incorporating control tires into a class or series has become part of racing in the 21st century. That is not by accident.