Tires?

[problemchild]

Interesting quote from a NE FF competitor appears on the Apexspeed forum:

You can put me down as someone who thinks that tire costs are FAR more of a problem than engine costs in FF. In fact, having spent what I did this year on tires to compete for the first time at the National level, I can tell you that I will NOT spend this much money again on tires next year. No, we will not race on old tires--here in the NE the competition is far too stout to show up on old tires. We will simply race less, picking and choosing the races we go to. And if the situation persists, we will stop racing FF at the National level.

The situation with tires in FF is an intolerable problem that people need to seriously start talking about. The problem as I see it is that the people at the front, who command the most respect and attention, like the current rules just fine. The rest of the field just follows along as if they have no business complaining.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.......

[smsazzy]

To me that is the difference between National racing and Regional racing.

If you want spec tires, or to be competitive on old tires, go regional racing.

[Doug Carter]

I think there are far more people who don't want to put new tires on every weekend than do. It's not a matter of being competitive on old tires—it's a matter of a club racer's yearly racing budget being more than 60-70% consumed by tires, just to remain competitive. That's a big reason why so many non-SCCA clubs with spec tire rules are getting to be so heavily populated. Just ask anyone that races using a hard spec tire anywhere in the country how they like their tire budgets now. Works pretty well in CF, FE, FST and most pro series at any ladder point.

In my experience in various classes, most of the guys against any kind of tire limited rule are getting free or heavily discounted sticky tires from a sponsor. I haven't met too many people that are buying new tires out of pocket who don't agree that a limited tire rule is not a good idea. And as budgets are squeezed tighter and tighter, the number of people in favor of some type of tire rule is gaining.




Personally, I dont think that telling those who believe that a tire rule would help class numbers and overall participation to race somewhere else is a real good idea. Nationals especially, need all the competitors they can get—in all formula classes, not just FV.

[RacerGeek]

To me that is the difference between National racing and Regional racing.

If you want spec tires, or to be competitive on old tires, go regional racing.

I certainly would never claim to speak for Greg Rice (problemchild), but isn't that exactly what he did - sell off a Formula Vee program that had finished in the top 5 at the Runoffs to built a Formula First primarily because of the spec tire rule?

[problemchild]

I don't need to be the topic of this conversation. Yes, I own two FVs that will not race regularily in SCCA FV until there is a spec tire. I made my choices. I find it ironic that more people are whining about tire costs in FF than FV. Their are just enough people with Steven's attitude out there to keep the rank and file quiet. It is the same with our midget-sized cars. Tell someone their fat, and they stop complaining about their uncompetitive weight situation ..... but they start shopping for another class.
I recently returned to Canadian F1200 racing. Spec tires and more drivers under 30 than above. Fifteen of the 18 drivers were within 2.5% of the fastest car's lap times. It was cheap racing! It was great racing! Plain and simple! That is the reason I started and stayed in FV. IMO, Competitive SCCA FV has lost that element. Cheers!

[smsazzy]

I have a hard time believing ANYONE spends 60-70% of their budget on tires. Entry fees alone cost nearly as much as a set of tires for a double weekend at many tracks. Add to that hotel, gas, tow vehicle expenses, engine rebuilds, etc. and I am sorry, but tires are a drop in the bucket. A national weekend costs well over $1000 to run, and since a set of tires lasts at least 3 weekends, (for me cycled from race tires X2, Qualifying tires X2, then practice tires) the aggregate cost of tires is probably more like 15% of a race weekend. If you have a big tow like we do out west, then it is probably more like 10% or less.

I would save more money if gas for my tow vehicle dropped by $0.50 per gallon in most cases, or if entry fees dropped by $100 per race.

The Memorial Day double national in 2008 was $575. Rose cup (which is a single national) was over $500. Add 3+ nights of hotel for $300+, $150 gas for towing, food, aggregated annual expenses, My total tire cost for those two races was about $195 each.

I just don't see how cutting that tire expense in half is going to bring back the masses. Are people really not racing because they want to save the <$100? Or are they not racing because they want to save the >$1000 total cost?

Greg,
I am glad you have found a place to race with which you are happy.

[problemchild]

There is that attitude again. "Racing costs money ... If you don't like it, don't race .... or go race another class or with a different organization."

Certainly, in the Northeast, where most race within 4-5 hrs of home, reducing tire costs by half would have a huge effect on total cost .... and lead to improved participation. With a good spec tire, cost savings would be more than half! With so much crossover between different Regional and National events and Series, localized spec tire rules would not be nearly as affective as a National spec tire program. It is the average National racer who needs the help most. He is indirectly paying the tire bill for all the top guys.

[Matt King]

Entry fees alone cost nearly as much as a set of tires for a double weekend at many tracks.

Bullsh*t. The entry fees at every Cendiv race this year are $330 for a National or double regional. Show me a set of new Hoosiers or GYs for $330. Hell, show me a set for doublethat--$660. Plus mounting and balancing. Tires are NOT a drop in the bucket, they are at least half the total cost of a race weekend around here for those who buy a new set every weekend.

[Doug Carter]

In all honesty, I'm wondering why anyone would NOT want to increase the longevity of their tires and reduce overall racing costs. If everyone else is using the same tires in your class, what's the problem?



Considering that FV already uses hard R55s from Hoosier and most of the spec compounds in other classes are right up around R45 to R60, what is the preference for this class in a spec tire? Does it already exist?

[FVartist]

We have a spec tire out here on the Left Coast for regional races. Have had for over a decade. Has been mentioned numerous times and with how it was done. I don't know why it has not worked on the Right Coast, but I do not think it is just those that are getting tire sponsorship that are resistant. There could not be that many. The majority must have their own reasons why they're resistant.

We also have high entry costs Sears double $490 single $290, Laguna double $495 Regionals single $330, T-hill( Region Owned Track ) Double National $470. Cost of spec tires about $500 and are easily mounted by hand. No one buys new tires for every race which makes tire cost less than half of entries. Our perspective is slightly differant since we use a spec tire for Regionals. Nationals, we are in the same boat as the rest of the nation.

This is something that could be brought up at the meeting at the Runoff's. Suggest sending a note to S. Davis with some reasons for.

[brian]

Every time this subject comes up, thanks Greg, it becomes some kind of pi**ing contest. Truth be known, Stephen is correct when you factor all the costs during a typical race weekend. If you tow 50 miles and sleep in the truck, "your results may be different". Historically, tire costs have remained fairly stable, especially when compared to entry fees.

Spec classes are not a good example since many of them cater to the arrive and drive folks and have nothing to do with tires. Some of my SRF friends would rather not have a spec tire.

I personally have no problem with a spec tire. The harder the better. But you can't tell me that the existing resistance to a spec tire is the result of special deals. Frankly, if a majority of vee folks agreed with Greg, this would have been done years ago. Let's move on.

[Matt King]

Truth be known, Stephen is correct when you factor all the costs during a typical race weekend. If you tow 50 miles and sleep in the truck, "your results may be different". Historically, tire costs have remained fairly stable, especially when compared to entry fees.

OK, let's look at the costs of MY typical race weekend:

Entry fee: $330 (double regional)
Gas for tow rig: $65 (this is to race at Blackhawk Farms, my farthest tow, 200 miles round-trip, rig gets approx. 8mpg, gas @ $2.65 gal)
Race gas: $40 (10 gallons 110LL @ $4 gal. from local airport)
Engine rebuild fund: $150 ($1500 avg. rebuild divided by 10 weekends)
Hotel: $225 (if I stayed in a hotel, but that’s why I tow a 24-ft trailer and get 8mg)
Incidental food, etc.: $50
Tires: $700 for Hoosiers mounted/balanced
Total: $1560

So, if I was to buy a new set of tires each race weekend, tires would be 45 percent of my total race weekend cost. Yeah, that’s a real drop in the bucket, an insignificant cost that is a mere pittance in the grand scheme of my total costs.

Now let’s say I buy a new set every two race weekends. My costs drop to $1210 and my tire cost drops to 29 percent of the weekend budget. That’s still over a quarter of my expense for the weekend, and still not an insignificant pittance.

[RacerGeek]

Matt,

This isn't going to happen. The people that run nationals don't want this. The reality is that very few national guys actually buy tires every race anyways. They only run enough races to qualify for the Runoffs and in most divisions the entries are so low all they have to do is show up and finish to qualify. A lot of guys that only run regionals buy the national guys take offs and have said in the past they could not afford to race if they don't buy used tires. As counter-intuitive as it sounds the system basically works.

Also, there is no way that SCCA has the balls to pi$$ off either Goodyear or Hoosier by only using one of them - or heaven forbid neither of them by using American Racers! Plus, look at the Hoosier and Goodyear websites. They don't even sell hard compound FV tires any more because there was no market for them. As much as people complain about the price of tires, when the R60's and 600's were available no one bought them. And even if this does get brought up at the Runoffs meeting, along with other possible directions to take FV, it's just being presented to a group that really doesn't think anything needs to be fixed. Not hard to imagine they will focus on the intake manifold debacle because that is what hits the top runners in their wallet. Business as usual - a lot of rhetoric, but no real impetus for change.

[smsazzy]

Here are the tracks I ran last year:
Phoenix - over 1000 mile tow one way
Cal Speedway - over 1000 mile tow one way
Thunderhill - about 500 mile tow one way
Portland - 185 mile tow one way
Seattle - 30 mile tow one way
Heartland Park - 1500 mile tow one way

Like I said, I use a set of tires for 3 double weekends, and I certainly am not getting any sponsorship. Unless you count the three tires I got from the contingency program as sponsorship last year. I wish I had a whole bunch of tracks that were just a hop skip and a jump away, but I do not.

If you want to have a spec tire, write a letter. Don't make personal attacks on me.

Where did I say "Racing costs money ... If you don't like it, don't race .... or go race another class or with a different organization." Why is that in quotations? I never said that. What I did say was that if you don't want to step up to a national program, then run regionals. Isn't that the difference between regionals and nationals? Isn't the point of regionals to be a lower cost, lower competition, lower experience (regional license) racing environment? That's not to say there is not GREAT racing in some regions, like San Francisco for example, who has a spec tire and historically has had 15-20 cars at most races before the recession hit this year. But we've also traditionally had 12-15 cars in national racing too.

And don't tell me "Bull*%it". Maybe your experience is different, but say that. My experience is exactly how I outlined. The entry fees I quoted are accurate. $575 WAS INDEED the entry fee at Seattle in 2008 when I last ran. I think this year it actually went down to $555 or something like that after we all complained.

There is no conspiracy theory here. I don't get money from Hoosier for my opinion. I am not a secret investor in Goodyear. I just don't think National racing needs a spec tire. Like I have said before, make a spec tire for Regional racing, just like several regions have done successfully. I just don't want one in National racing. Since when was it such a crime in the US to have an opinion?

[Doug Carter]

Steve, why exactly would you not want a longer-life, spec tire of any kind? I'm watching both this and the other FF spec tire discussion on ApexSpeed closely, and I still have yet to see anyone really put out a reason why they argue against it.

And you get THREE double weekends from a single set of tires? That's 6 races?

[brian]

The reality is that even when there is a spec tire, some will still buy new tires every weekend. I don't care how hard or how well the tire is designed, there will be some degradation. Ask a Spec Maita or SRF racer and they'll tell you how it is.

The challenge associated with setting a true spec tire, not just picking a company that will throw money at your series, is establishing the standards which envolves achieving a concensus, then designing a test program to discern the best tire. Unlike Maitia or SRF, there's dozens of chassis in FV, so which car will be used in testing? I have heard that the testing program for SRF was a real nightmare. I really don't think SCCA cares either way, they just don't have the resources to manage a selection process. Remember, Enterprises did the SRF testing with revenue from the class.

First, we must have concensus, then form a committee to spec the tire and communicate the specs to the tire companies. Lastly, and certainly not the easiest step, establish a procedure and test the submissions offerred. Any ideas how to pay for this program? Any volunteers? The actual process is far more complicated than most of the posters realize.

For a while I thought the class was going to have only one vendor. GY seems to have rebound and will be envolved, so simply asking for a harder compound will not work.

[Dmclellan]

Does the FV tire size cause more tire wear and shorter tire life?
FST have shorter and wider tires and are reported to last all season.

[SR Racing]

That is true. The smaller size puts more wear on the tires. However, the FST tire is also a 60 compound where the FV tire is usually a 55. So the width and hardness give the FST much longer wear.

[smsazzy]

It is not that I am against a tire lasting longer, I am against a spec tire. I like to be able to choose between tires for the tire that performs best on my car. Now that said, I also take cost and longevity into account. When I started racing, the GY tire had a reputation around here for a little higher grip, but only lasting a couple heat cycles. The Hoosiers, from experience are still fairly good around 7 or 8 cycles.

I usually run a tire for 3 races, 3 qualifying sessions then 3 practice or test sessions. For me, this seems pretty reasonable on the budget, and I do not perceive a disadvantage competitively.

I also like the ability to choose which compound to run. Around here, the 45 tire seems to be the tire of choice, since we normally race in 60 degree overcast sky weather. Occassionally, it will be 70 degrees and partly sunny and it becomes a strategy decision. Do I go with the 45 for the initial grip, or go with the 55 and hope I have more at the end. That part is fun to me.

I don't have any imperacle data on this, but in order to get the tire to last, I do a few things: 1- I use nitrogen to fill the tire. 2- I wrap the tire in plastic. This keeps oxygen, ozone and UV off the tire (inside and out). Never seen anything testing my theory scientifically, but it made sense to me. So I go to Airgas once a year and buy a $50 bottle of nitrogen and use it all year long.

I also don't like the idea of a hard tire. I, as a driver, thrive on the confidence the Hoosier tire gives me. I don't like the car to be sliding all around like it does on the American Racer tire I used in Regional racing. The feeling of floating through the corner, instead I like to turn the wheel and feel the car hook up and turn. That is the difference I perceive between the hard (American Racer) and the Hoosier tire.

[Doug Carter]

Fair enough—you're the first person who has actually intelligently stated why they don't want a spec hard tire for any class either here or on the discussions ongoing on ApexSpeed at the moment. I appreciate it.

[FVartist]

The main difference between the Hoosier/Goodyear tire and American Racer is the side wall. The A/R's are not as stiff, they flex more giving you that butt puckering feeling as you go through a corner sliding until they hook up. You compensate and drive the track with that in mind.

[remmers]

I have a hard time believing ANYONE spends 60-70% of their budget on tires. Entry fees alone cost nearly as much as a set of tires for a double weekend at many tracks. Add to that hotel, gas, tow vehicle expenses, engine rebuilds, etc. and I am sorry, but tires are a drop in the bucket. A national weekend costs well over $1000 to run, and since a set of tires lasts at least 3 weekends, (for me cycled from race tires X2, Qualifying tires X2, then practice tires) the aggregate cost of tires is probably more like 15% of a race weekend. If you have a big tow like we do out west, then it is probably more like 10% or less.

wow, $575 for a double? that's outrageous... we're still at about $300-400 for a double entry fee. I've been spending about $800/weekend to run double regionals, at which point buying a set of tires for the weekend would pretty much double my expenditure.
I've been running on used rubber all year and it spanked me hard at NJMP doing so... The only two people who even stayed on track were the only two running sticker tires. I'm glad I have my yearly bonus in the summer because now I have just enough money to buy a set of new tires to finish off my last 3 races of the season.
If I were to campaign with a new set of tires every race like what I figure it takes to consistently be on the podium at NEDIV national races, It would easily consume 50% of my budget, which includes tow money and entry fee. Maybe make it 45% if you include a engine rebuild that year... If a spec tire can last me all year like Greg says they do in Canada, I'm all for it. As I've said before, I'm also for using just DOT street legal rubber.

[CSatterley]

Do you know that a Waterford Hills weekend is $205 (SCCA member price, $150 for members) for one qualifying and 3 races, need to have a muffler, but there was only 3 vees at the last event all running on old used tires. I'm a big supporter of spec tires, but I do think it is a combination of entry fees and tires that are keeping people away, because vee was for people with a lower budget. At mid-ohio this weekend and Waterford last weekend the counts were up for FC, CFC.

BTW, you could run a full 6 weekends at Waterford hills for the cost of 2 weekends on the left coast, so budget racing is still available in some parts of the country. I don't really understand why the entry fee cost is so high considering they run Karts and motorcycles at tracks like Grattan for a quarter of the cost. Do they not have to have the same insurance?

[Bill_Bonow]

The reality is that even when there is a spec tire, some will still buy new tires every weekend. I don't care how hard or how well the tire is designed, there will be some degradation. Ask a Spec Maita or SRF racer and they'll tell you how it is.

Brian,

Sorry, but this argument is just not true. The success of a spec tire is very dependant on the design of the tire. Sure, there are people who will buy tires every weekend, but if the correct tire is choosen, the performance delta is nil. I just finished a weekend at Mid-Ohio were my tires got heat cycles 21, 22, 23 & 24. In the two races, (cycles 22 & 24) I turned the second fastest race lap (better that the race winner) of the race. The Spec Miata and SRF guys have a crap spec tire. Picking the correct spec tire for the purpose it needs to serve is the issue, not spec tires in general.

Plenty of hash marks on my tires and they seem to perform just fine.

Look here: http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthr ... post226375

[CSatterley]

Bill wrote: "I just finished a weekend at Mid-Ohio were my tires got heat cycles 21, 22, 23 & 24."

Chris: It also doesn't seem like you guys are sliding around any more than me on R55a, (at least Butch wasn't, he was the only one around me), but that was about the 10th heat cycle for me. I seem to always run the same races as the Firsts and the only thing I notice is that my tires heat up faster so the first lap or so i have more grip, but then again I rarely have new tires so it may be more evident throughout the race.