FV Future

[SR Racing]

FST is where FV was 40 years ago. I GUARANTY that it will evolve exactly like the FV rules did.

In a FV to FST world probably. But at least more and cheaper parts would be available. But as far as FST goes we want to STAY regional . No one in our driver's organization wants to go National. So no petition and we stay regional and WE control the rules, not the SCCA. Only us FST racers. We discuss our needs for the next year and meet once a year to discuss possible changes and get concensus and tell the SCCA what the GCR will say the following year. That is why we want to stay regional.

With the average age of the current FV driver, it is much simpler to just retire when the parts problem gets impossible. What is the motivation to resolve an issue the will in all likelihood come after their driving career is over?

I think you hit the nail on the head.

[qposner]

I was going to stay out of this thread, but there are some valid points regarding the aging out of the class. When I was 8 my dad started racing FV. I have grown up around it and started racing FV when I was 18. When I started at 18 I was the youngest guy on the track. Guess what? Now that I am 35 I am still the youngest guy on the track (all right, except for Saslow). My point is, we are all getting older and I don't see any new 18 year olds filling in the ranks. Heck, for the most part, I don't see anyone in their 20's anywhere on the west coast. Another 15 years and Saslow and I will be the only one's left out here (well, Al Olinger will probably still be racing at dang near 100). Something does need to be done. Wish I knew the answer, but the status quo isnt going to get it done long term.

[FV80]

OK - let's say some would like to take some action. How about some suggestions for just WHAT we could/should change that would
1). Not cost every vee racer in the country a ton of $$$.
2). Not affect the competitiveness of the car in a positive way - thereby forcing everyone to BUY and install it.
3). Not require a multiplity (is that a word?) of changes in order to implement. i.e. any suggested change should not automatically REQUIRE several other changes in order to implement it.
4). BE cost effective and useful.
5). Actually be a step in the right direction. Something not JUST for the sake of change.

The Committee has attempted to come up with a migration path for several years, but everything we've come up with either involves MASSIVE changes to the car configuration, is WAY too expensive, or was SHOT DOWN immediately by the masses upon proposal.

So.... YOU have the podium now. What *CAN* we do ?? Let's do something useful with this thread, rather than just wobble our jaws (fingers)
Steve

[problemchild]

SPEC TIRES

[rstackjd]

Okay, I'll take a kick at this cat, I'm cold today (Wisconsin you know) and could use some flames.

What about making the FST motor/trans, tire & brake package optional for FV, with a weight penalty of some amount (greater than the FST weight minimums) to partially "equalize" the increased power? If the weight were removable, then we would actually have the ability to run either FST or FV by removing the weight. As more and more FV's went to the optional package over time, the weight requirements could be lifted.

Surely there's some smart guys who could figure out a weight penalty for equalization purposes?

Fire away

[fvkartguy]

What about making the FST motor/trans, tire & brake package optional for FV, with a weight penalty of some amount (greater than the FST weight minimums) to partially "equalize" the increased power? If the weight were removable, then we would actually have the ability to run either FST or FV by removing the weight. As more and more FV's went to the optional package over time, the weight requirements could be lifted.

I'd be all for that idea.
When I was in kart racing, the club I belonged to did the same thing. Everyone showed up with different types of karts and instead of having a bunch of classes with people running on their own or maybe a couple other people, they'd have a weight penalty to level the playing field and the competition was GREAT! And then if you go to another club or an 'official' WKA race, you take out the weight and compete!

[remmers]

I know exactly what we need to reach a younger audience. TV coverage. Perhaps we can get people to run some support races for at pro events, get ESPN2 or, better yet, Fuel/VS to air coverage at a reasonable timeslot (not like what speed did to the runoffs coverage this past year) and do whatever we can to push for younger audiences to try a hand at it. (even if that includes raffles for driver's schools in rental vees, etc.)
Unless we can achieve a status as a feeder series, youngin's will likely take their parent's money elsewhere so that they have a shot at getting noticed. That's my thoughts on what will get young (potentially fast) people to pass up FF, FC, FA, GT1, or CSR/DSR in favor of air cooled beetles.

[fvkartguy]

I know exactly what we need to reach a younger audience. TV coverage. Perhaps we can get people to run some support races for at pro events, get ESPN2 or, better yet, Fuel/VS to air coverage at a reasonable timeslot (not like what speed did to the runoffs coverage this past year) and do whatever we can to push for younger audiences to try a hand at it. (even if that includes raffles for driver's schools in rental vees, etc.)
Unless we can achieve a status as a feeder series, youngin's will likely take their parent's money elsewhere so that they have a shot at getting noticed. That's my thoughts on what will get young (potentially fast) people to pass up FF, FC, FA, GT1, or CSR/DSR in favor of air cooled beetles.

That and my suggestion, http://www.formulavee.org/interchange/v ... =24&t=3238
I really believe if all the vee drivers start getting out and recruiting we could get more people involved and increase our numbers pretty quickly...

[CSatterley]

I'm not sure why a discussion is really needed about this issue, considering they are two different classes. Why not just let it play out. People are going to choose which class fits them best. The FST committee has done a great job in the Central/Great Lakes division. There seems to be plenty of competition there as far as FST goes. (thought I was going to see a fight at Grattan this year ; ) ). Maybe not on the scale of FV but its not a 40 year old class. My only issue with FST is that i don't think every FV make is a good conversion as far as cooling and geometry of the chassis. Racing with them on the track is fine but, can be like racing against a slower 500. (fast on the straights, slow in the corners) The spec tire thing will always baffle me in FV

[SR Racing]

My only issue with FST is that i don't think every FV make is a good conversion as far as cooling and geometry of the chassis. Racing with them on the track is fine but, can be like racing against a slower 500. (fast on the straights, slow in the corners)

Chris, I think you are looking at the newbies with the least track time. For example, we had 3? FST's at BHF that had never seen the track before and a few more that had never been there in an FST. Our data shows 1.6+ G's in corners and several FST passes on FV's in the corner. With comparable drivers, I think you might see that a good Vee is slightly faster through a corner, but not the slam on the brakes change that we often see in F500's.

There is no real reason why a conversion FST would perform less than an purposebuilt one. There is no technical difference after a conversion in any suspension, aero, or drivetrain component. Due to the tire package we set the cars up differently as far as camber, toe, etc. but that can be done with any converted Vee. We still have track records held by converted Vees. You might have to build different cooling ducts due to the 1600 induction system layout, but with dry sumps most are running at or below FV temps.

[hardingfv32-1]

FST has almost no following any where else in nation. Picking one or other is generally not an option if you wish to have someone to compete against.

Brian

[Bill_Bonow]

Brian,

There are actually two Evolutions in So Cal. (in LA no less) that have been running Regionals.

[SR Racing]

Yep.. About 20 here in Central US area. A few in the AZ area, 2 or 3 in Cal, one in GA, a couple in Lousiana area and a couple in the east. We have sold a few FST specific parts to others apparently under construction, but don't know the status. Right now it is an orphan class but it is having some growth. With a better economy it might be doing quite well.

[fvkartguy]

Yep.. About 20 here in Central US area. A few in the AZ area, 2 or 3 in Cal, one in GA, a couple in Lousiana area and a couple in the east. We have sold a few FST specific parts to others apparently under construction, but don't know the status. Right now it is an orphan class but it is having some growth. With a better economy it might be doing quite well.

Better economy and support from more Vee shops.
Bill Griffith is the big Vee guy in Texas. He hasn't warmed up to the idea of FST and I haven't seen a single one in Texas... maybe it hasn't spread this far south.

[Bill_Bonow]

Just to add to Jim's post, here is a link to our current master list of FST's built (blue) or under construction (red) with the general location in the US

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30640

Granted, most are in the Midwest. However, its not all of them.

P.S. Robert Haspel is building an FST in Texas
http://web.mac.com/borulom/Formula_Firs ... _home.html

[RacerGeek]

If you are interested in FST in the northeast, Steve Pastore did 2 transmissions for me and was very receptive to working on stuff for FST and Autowerks has built several FST engines. When I sold all my FST stuff a lot of the parts went to the southeast so I know that at least two cars are being built in Georgia and Florida. I also had an engine and some other parts go out to Arizona.

[problemchild]

I had been promoting FST in the Northeast. There definitely is some interest but FV is still too strong for people to switch and be the trendsetters. These closet FST fans would convert if others would convert first. I just let it be as no group seemed ready to emerge.

Whether in the Northeast or elsewhere, the key is to get a group of 3,4, or 5 that are not happy with the status quo and commit to a switch at the same time. If that group emerges in the NE, I have 5 low or zero-time Autowerks FST engines available to go with my lot of 6 FST transmissions. I could round up a bunch of surplus FST components and supply that group within a few weeks. I could even take a limited quanity of FV parts in trade. The opportunity is there to have a pack of FST cars racing together in the NE and I would be delighted to help put it together and make it work.

As I said, I do not anticipate such support, if only because of our economy at this time. The opportunity is there if anyone wanted to take me up on it. If people are happy to keep with FV, I'm good with that too! Having two classes sharing the same run group, with common cars, components, venders, etc can only be a good thing.

Cheers!

BTW .... I describe the FST tire grip level as the same as good used FV tires. When you have 5 or 6 sessions on your FV tires .... the car handles OK but you are lacking some speed. Same thing with the FST tires .... but the car changes very little over 20 sessions. Much like a FV, we only use about 1 1/2" of the tire at any time so the width is irrelevent.