Low turnouts

[SOseth]

This is why I responded to this post. I am one of those interested but have left. Now you have a fairly negative post saying that the grass isn't greener. This isn't what I said in the first place. I tried to show that there is plenty of competition for my motorsports dollars and that I found what I thought was a better value for my dollar. I got into vees because of large feilds and relatively low cost. Both of those have gone. I love vees and have had some of my best times in a Vee. I would love to see it flourish again, but I don't see anything changing to make it so. I am not selling my car hoping that I can get back in for some of the reasons I did in the first place.

So what would you change to get you back in?

SteveO

[OhioMark]

Steve:

I'm just guessing, but knowing Steve (Deacon Blue's) pretty well, I assume he wouldn't be objectionable to harder tire compounds that
last 15-20 heat cycles, for use at regional's only since the National drivers wouldn't go for it. That alone would save money and reduce
the annual budget, plus better scheduling among regions that border each other so we don't have races on the same weekend with
tracks only 150 - 200 miles apart. Too many races on too many consecutive weekends, then nothing for a month or so? What kind
of scheduling is that etc......I'm sure he has several more idea's and will be glad to share them ( i hope ).

Mark

P.S.: Glad to hear from you Deacon Blue's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kartgraphix]

...I am one of those interested but have left. Now you have a fairly negative post saying that the grass isn't greener... I would love to see it flourish again, but I don't see anything changing to make it so. I am not selling my car hoping that I can get back in for some of the reasons I did in the first place....

First of all, I was not attacking anyones ideas. I was simply pointing out that it is possible to find as much fault with alternatives to the SCCA, as it is with the SCCA itself. Pointing out the negatives of the SCCA, and positives of any alternative, is the definition of a grass-is-greener fallacy, and not an accurate representation. I suggest it is also unfair to the hundreds of volunteers who make the SCCA one of the better venues around, regardless of its "issues".

I continue to contend that there is no single venue or activity robbing participation, and the problems of the SCCA have been the problem with motor sport forever, not specific to any one specific organization. The fact is, we all have MANY more choices to spend money today than ever before. I know many who are moving from racing to other expensive fun, like hotrods, and putting the kids through school... not all of the SCCA problems have anything to do with the SCCA or the class. Meanwhile, there are newcomers to SCCA from outside, that are abandoning some other expensive prusuit to feed the kitty hear.

The karting industry is suffering as much as FV and the SCCA. Clubs are seeing almost exactly the same losses of participation as sports car racing. The cheap low-end classes are shrinking, while the higher end classes are growing (TAG), and the participation of shifter pilots for fun on test days is expanding, while actual shifter racing is dying. We are not alone in this period of adjustment. The sky is not falling, the clouds are just moving.

As far as selling cars, there are more than one reason to do that. From the outside, not knowing the individual involved, those who are quitting, those who are selling their car (and graphix business, motorcycle, and anything else not bolted down) to rebuild and commit themselves to greater involvement in a class they totaly love, and those who are just exploring options for trying a new combination for the fun of it- all look exactly the same. Funny how that works, no?

[Deacon Blues]

I was asked what would bring me back into vee. I think Mark has some ideas of how to either bring down the cost or bring up the fields. These are a start. Years ago I volunteered to set up a spec tire series at Nelson Ledges if there was interest. I got exactly 1 positive response to the idea, and I believe it came from the person who started this post. At the time fields were dropping but still fairly reasonably sized at Nelson. Without trying to get negative, most of the responses were "racing is expensive , deal with it". I think the first guys tried to get things lower cost, but I think they were flawed in their execution due to two basic reasons. You had to change the car all at once and it only appealed to vee drivers which took away from the vee fields. We lost 3 or 4 regular vee drivers at that time. In fields of 15 - 20 that makes a reasonable reduction. There was talk about a 5 year plan a while back to move Vee to make it a more vibrant class, but I didn't see much come of it. I think the SCCA has opened too many classes with I believe good intentions to make a class for everyone to run, but in doing so took away track time or combining too many classes so that the racing was not as good.

I'm not sure what can be done to bring down costs. I earlier mentioned that some of the track days I go to are on weekdays. If it is possible to get corner workers I'm sure the track is much cheaper to rent. Possibly coud try an open wheel only day if the cost was low enough. This could bring more track time and more entries with similar costs.

I started going to track days with the motorcycle a few years ago to see what it was like with every intention of running one or two a year with most of my time spent on Vees. The more I compared the cost to what I spent on Vees the more I thought of doing much more bike running and running the vee enough to keep my license. The fuel cost to tow to an event along with the need for the SCCA membership, license fee, physical exam and new belts, just made that not financially reasonable. For the first time in 15 years I will let my SCCA membership lapse and If I do go back I will either beg for forgiveness or go to a school again.


I wish I had more possitive ideas to either bring up fields or lower costs, but I just can't think of many that haven't been discussed over the years. I did bring up in an earlier post that the track events I go to on the bikes sell out. Either there are a lot more people who want to hang off of a bike than there are want to race open wheels or they are doing a better job at attracting new riders or keeping the one's they have.

I do miss racing the Vee, but at nearly $1000 per event It just wasn't that much more fun than what I can get for less than half that expense. I will keep looking here to see if things are changing at all and I do wish everyone still in the sport the best. You are a great group of people.

Steve

[SR Racing]

I think the first guys tried to get things lower cost, but I think they were flawed in their execution due to two basic reasons. You had to change the car all at once and it only appealed to vee drivers which took away from the vee fields.

Steve,

Actually we did have somewhat of an allowed evolution in the rules. However, no one really used it since it required re-work after each conversion. We did end up with a venue that is still much cheaper than Vee racing and have shown good growth. The delay in National acceptance is probably the biggest cause of any delays in our growth. While you are somewhat right on subtraction from Vee fields, it was minimal. 1/2 of our drivers were new to racing and some of the others became more active after starting in FST. (Tire budgets, engine costs and the FCM series all helped this.)

[SR Racing]

While I am in here.. I just read in Time? that since 2000 the income earning below $180,000 actually lost income due to inflation vs. income. Only those above that did better on the average. I suspect most Vee drivers are in that category. When you compound that with the fact that those items most impacted via inflation are the things that racers use most. (Tires have gone up 8% per year, fuel ???!!!, metal products more than 10%, travel the same. Then add in the fact of the typical Vee drivers age and approachment to retirement and/or fixed income. So it all makes sense...

[OhioMark]

Nobody asked but here's my thoughts: (Regional only)

1.) Spec tire using hard American Racer tires or others similiar to the old Goodyear Veerock's of year's past. Part of the attraction to the Formula First
class is the reduction in tire cost by using the Club Ford tire which is hard and lasts over 25+ heat cycles. You can race almost the entire year on
one set of tires.

2.) Request that the regions get together and start scheduling race weekend's so they don't overlap or run consecutively and request 3-4 weeks
between races because most racer's can only budget one race per month at best.

3.) Similiar to the current Formula First philosophy, try getting the most vee's at one location / track on a given weekend. It's much more fun to
race against 15-20 vee's than 5-7,plus you may get you own group if the number's are sufficient.

4.) Try and get SCCA to create a Club Formula Vee (CFV) so we can get the 100-250 D-13s, Lynx B's and other's who are too old to compete for
the overall win, but too young for vintage racing .......racing again!

5.) Request that Region's shorten qualifying time so we can have more racing laps. If you can't get your speed up in 10 minutes it's not going to happen.
This could allow for an additional 4-5 laps added to each race which would give better bang for the buck. We're all there to race and I'd much rather have
the longer race than qualifying OR, similiar to my son's karting, draw you starting pos. each morning (Sat. & Sun.) with the morning heat race results
determining your afternoon starting position. That way you get two races each day and/or four races each weekend!!!!

Just a thought if I was King for a day!!

Mark

[FV80]

Nobody asked but here's my thoughts: (Regional only)...

Mark

Actually someone DID ask you, Mark. You are on the list of people that were sent the REQUEST FOR INPUT last month via the FV Registry. I'm happy to get your input, but curious as to why you'd post it HERE, but not take the time to respond to the direct email sent to you? PM me if you don't want to put your answer on the forum, but I'd REALLY like to know (and so would the rest of the Committee ). That goes for all you other guys too. I got only 12 responses out of almost 300 requests sent out.

Maybe everyone assumes the answer is 'obvious', or maybe they assume it's a waste of time because no one really wants to know. However, although most of the (very few) responses were predictable (and nothing we can do anything about), a couple actually had some meaningful suggestions and thoughts - yours may very well be "THE ONE". Please don't assume that because I don't RESPOND to every email received that it is ignored .. they are NOT. It just seems absurd to me to send back an email to everyone saying "I got it" - just assume I did. Even if your specific idea doesn't get implemented, rest assured that the Committee is reading EVERY ONE of the responses and we are doing the best we can to decide what's best for FV (SCCA, as THAT is our focus). FYI - when there are only 12 responses from 300 (over 150 of which are ACTIVE FV SCCA drivers), then it leads one to "guess" (what else can we do?) that the majority actually are satisfied with the way things are. One of the reasons for sending to EVERYONE in the Registry rather than just ACTIVE FV SCCA drivers, is to get input from those who might have left our ranks ... and why! Or those who might be considering JOINING our ranks ... and "what would it take?"

If you have input, PLEASE respond to those emails! This is our BEST means of communication to the masses. We simply can't make phone calls or personally visit with every one of you at the same time.

Steve

[OhioMark]

Steve:

I apologize for not replying to your email. I don't actually remember getting it but that's not uncommon at my end when you receive
50 emails per day, and as a result you tend to do mass delete's that sometimes erase emails that should be read. My posting on the
website wasn't a communist plot but rather an effort to vent and maybe get others to throw around some idea's. I promise to respond to
any future emails I receive from you and thank you for your efforts.

Mark

[6gecko]

FWIW - I agree with everything OhioMark has said. Though I sold my Vee in the spring, I'd be inclined to get another if these suggestions were implemented, particularly the harder tire compound. IMO, the spec tire rule and the single gearbox in Formula First make a lot of sense.

[problemchild]

Question to the Committee:
There was a passionate and constructive discussion about spec tire options on this forum last year.
Why was that abandoned?
Or was it?
Any input (about FV in general) that may come in now has certainly been discussed over and over for the past 5+ years. Creating viable plans to implement this input would seem to be necassary.

[clubford00]

If i remember right, and i probably dont because im old now, But most of the National boys were crying about having a spec tire and most everyone else was in favor of it. (ok i left myself open there let me have it !!)

[OhioMark]

Dean:

If most of the National boys don't want a spec tire, but the Regional racers desire it, then why don't we try to implement
a regional spec tire. It shouldn't be us vs. them, but all of us unified in an effort to get more drivers in all open wheel
cars. The National drivers should encourage a spec regional tire because those regional drivers may race in nationals
either full time or part time after several years of regional racing. It's a win - win for everyone!! I nominate Steve
to move in that direction and even consult with the FST boys on how they implemented spec tires in their series.

Mark

P.S.: I'll be glad to help in any way possible!

[Mystique Racing]

In the SF Region we have been running a spec tire for years in our regional series. We are currently using the American Racer, which I believe is the same compound as the FST/CF spec tire. The design of the tire allows it to last just about down to the cords. I have 13 heat cycles on my tires after running 2 double regionals and one single regional. I would guess that there is still about 6-8 cycles remaining. The current lap times are just as fast as they were when the tires were new, actually, I went even faster at the last race at Laguna Seca. For about $400.00 a set and the ability to race 5-6 regional races on one set of tires, I would say that it is a great Idea.

BTW, I know many of you are going to be offended by this comment, however, the minimum weight in Vee needs to be raised. There are several drivers, including myself, in our region that are 40-50 lbs over weight. In fact, I would guess that in the race last weekend at Laguna, about half of the Vee field can not make minimum weight. I will be converting to FST next year because of the higher minimum weight and I believe that others will follow. Maybe there should be a National weight minimum and a regional weight minimum. Everything else being equal, the large guy has no chance against the small guy in a Vee.

[FV80]

Dean:

... I nominate Steve
to move in that direction and even consult with the FST boys on how they implemented spec tires in their series.

Mark

P.S.: I'll be glad to help in any way possible!

It has been discussed heavily from the national perspective and, at least for the time being, doesn't seem feasible. We have 2 major players in the Vee tire business and neither of them is interested in quitting right now. Making them BID for a spec tire against each other doesn't seem like a good idea, and it would require that SCCA (National) make the choice (do we want that?) and then EVERY event would have to provide someone to police it. We don't need to consult with the FST boys - we KNOW how they did it .. and they didn't have 100 guys sitting out there with 4 sets of tires in their garage/trailer that might have to tossed.

I have suggested SEVERAL times on this board that the REGIONAL GUYS go that way! It requires NOTHING except an agreement between the racers. As Scott indicates above, it can work. Many would welcome it and it just needs to be suggested by someone in your division (like YOU). Go to your region (or the one that supports your favorite event) and request a 'Class' be CREATED for SFV (or whatever you want to call it) - All regions and divisions have the authority to create any class they want ... and write the rules for that class. Yours would be 'stock FV' except require 'SPEC TIRE OF YOUR CHOICE'. In general areas, pretty much the same guys race against each other all the time. The only issue here is a TROPHY for goodness sake. Even if the region/division doesn't agree, you can have your competition and 'win' your own race against others who have agreed to race with the spec tire - most regions would be THRILLED to provide a trophy for any class that can put 5 cars on the track - they often work with a lot less.

It does not require ME to implement this. You don't need to have SCCA write a rule for you. ... just go DO IT! SCCA at the national level is not interested in (and we should not be either) creating any MORE classes, just to incorporate Spec Tires. If you can get it going in YOUR region (with just TWO cars, maybe), then take it to the divisional level - with maybe another 5 cars, then contact your 'next door neighbor' division Vee drivers and see if you can get them interested.

Trust me - it'll work a LOT better at the regional level - and if it grows and grows, then someday it MIGHT transfer over to the National level.
TRY IT!
Steve

[brian]

Guys, Steve is right. Every time the tire issue is discussed the SF region program is repeated but no one seems to pick up on the program. Probably because it's easier to complain on the forum than do something.

Scott, I feel your pain about weight. Now all you have to do is show me how to put 40 or 50 lbs on my car and I'll consider a change. For now I rely on the gym instead of the knife and fork. It's tougher than complaining on the forum, but it does work.

[Mystique Racing]

Brian, I think it is great that you go to the gym, so do I. You know me well enough to see that I am not overweight............... well maybe 10lbs. Even if I lost the 10 lbs I would still be over by 40+lbs. As you know there are many more regional racers out here that are much larger than I am.

I will be glad to show you how to put the weight on your car, in fact, I will go as far as to tell you that it is a definite advantage for you to be able to move that weight around to find the optimum location, something I will never be able to do. That is why I suggested that maybe at the regional level the weight limit could be raised slightly. Kind of like what Steve is suggesting for the tires, regional rules V's national rules. As you know out here the regional program is much stronger than the national.

BTW, congratulations on the victory at the sprints. That is a great accomplishment.

Scott

[fvracer]

You guys need to take Steve's email to heart. Formula First was started by a couple of guys that saw a need and started working for a solution in a single Region and spread across the country. They wrote the rules, started the movement, did the cheerleading and got the racers together. It didn't involve Topeka or any SCCA officials. It did help that there were simular movements in Canada and beyond, but the same thing can be said about vintage and spec tires. The same thing can be done in any Region to start a Vintage Vee group or a Spec Tire Vee group or a whatever group. Get enough racers participating and it will spread from Region to Region. It only takes one guys vision, or a group's vision to get something started. As much as we complain about the SCCA, it does provide a path for us to do something about most everything that has been posted in this thread.

Doug

[DanRemmers]

Formula First was started by a couple of guys that saw a need and started working for a solution in a single Region and spread across the country. They wrote the rules, started the movement, did the cheerleading and got the racers together. It didn't involve Topeka or any SCCA officials.

Isn't that how Spec Miata started? And just look at it now. In fact, I'm guessing that the success of Spec Miata is due largely to the fact that it "didn't involve Topeka or any SCCA officials."

[hardingfv32-1]

Spec Miata happened because it is the correct car for the current generation of new racers. There are lots of service and rental firms for this product.

As stated earlier, SM would not have happened if SCCA did not have a system to integrate new ideas. SCCA can not solve the demographic changes that are effecting FV.

Brian

[jpetillo]

It needs to be easier to get involved!

Retaining racers is a problem for all racing organization. Many racers will leave after a year or two or three. Keeping the ranks up is a matter of constantly getting new people involved and understanding that many will come and go in a few years, some will stay longer but hop out eventually due to family life changes, and some smaller number will stay for the long haul. SCCA needs to have a formula that embraces that.

It's simply difficult to get involved in SCCA racing. Here in the Northeast, we spent two seasons trying to get my daughter to an SCCA racing school. Her college schedule made that difficult. The spring drivers schools are difficult to make it to. Then, once the summer comes when college goes on break, the schools are over with - until the late fall when college is in session again and there are more drivers schools. Also, many SCCA schools are a single school, and having to schedule two such events is even more difficult and quite expensive - just to test the waters. I don't know how many college students or others with scheduling issues are turned away by this, but it does make you wonder. It was with great additional expense that we went four states over to get her through a school this year, when our local track is just 90 miles away.

This is where the motorcycle community has it down. I can sign up for a motorcycle racing school, rent a bike, helmet,suit, etc. the day before each AMA-sanctioned race weekend. There are also more motorcycle trackdays than you can shake a stick at - not so many with cars. So, when the idea to get involved sparks into someone's mind, within a month a school is available. (an unfair advantage compared with car racing is that you can often use your own bike, and then most motorcycle people have most of the racing garb) Then, for that race weekend you race with other students only. Then if you pass all that, you race in AMA-sanctioned only against other novices until you have enough races under your belt and have scored enough points - that's often for a full season. Oh, those school's concurrently hold advanced racing schools as well so current racers help keep the attendance up and make it affordable for all.

I think the SCCA needs to work with and sanction other local "schools" to teach for SCCA and give out novice permits and make getting on the track easier. Right now you can go to a Skip Barber school for about $4K+, and a few others for a similar price. Bertil Roos no longer prepares you for a SCCA permit without taking the 2-day & then 3-day. That's over $5K and then 1/2 your racing budget is gone.

This isn't a solution, it just helps.

John

[Bill_Bonow]

Interesting stuff, seems the technical suggestions are focused on spec tires, single gearbox and additional minimum weight (large driver friendly). You know, if you could package that idea with lower cost and more commonly available later model VW parts (1600 engine, disc brakes, ect), you could really have something special

John P. really has a good point. A large percentage of racers will come and go in SCCA. They (SCCA has been so focused on National (Runoffs) racing, that over the past 20+ years, in general only the die hards are left (my .02). Fresh/young racers will enter our club on a Regional level and the club management/BoD should pull their heads from a dark hole and start to focus on ways to help get Regional racing back on a strong growth curve. I know SF Region already has this one covered quite well, but the rest of the country treats Regional racing like a "red-headed step child".

FV has ageing issues (again, my .02), but it seems that the bigger/general issue is new blood and how SCCA can re-focus on getting them involved with SCCA rather than giving old farts with a 20+ year continuous Runoffs attendance streak a discount on a paddock parking pass (as a method to grow the club?????)

Bill

[hardingfv32-1]

In ALL hobbies you will have attrition at the 2-3 year mark. It takes this long for newcomers to develop a clear understanding of the issues and difficulties of becoming successful at the hobby they are involved in. There is no way around this attrition. Those who remain are the ones most pleased with the situation.

SCCA can't do much to help at the Reg level. It is up to the volunteer club members of the individual regions to get the job done. That's you and me. There is the possibility that the jumbo Regs put less stress on the club volunteers than due the smaller Regs, although large Regs are often accused of being unresponsive.

Favoring current members over possible new comers is business decision. Time will tell if this is the correct choice. If you believe there are circumstance that prevent the National race program from growing, then this is the correct strategy.

Brian

[OhioMark]

You guys have been busy over the holiday weekend. Since I'm not up on the latest tire specs, can anyone provide
info. on the hardness/ durability of the American racers, Hoosier & Goodyear tires that might be eligible as a
spec tire? Thanks for any input!

Mark

[brian]

The AR's are similar to the Hoosier 55's. The AR's slide a bit more but frankly, I don't think they last any longer than a 55. Both brands require management for long life. Trick is, the AR's are only $400 a set. Initially, the AR's will slide more than a Hoosier but over time, both will grip about the same. A new set of AR's will outrun aged AR's and Hoosiers and some guys use new AR's frequently. The AR's rears use a slight canterlevered side wall that requires mounting a certain way. The AR's lose air when sitting and grip and behavior tends to vary a bit from date code to date code. Currently Hoosiers come in 45 and 55 compound. At one time Hoosier produced a 60 or VROC. Those would live forever but needed a torch to warm up. Goodyear just reintroduced the 430. I cant remember the AR compound number but all use the same one. I personally have not changed set up when going to the AR's. It take's a few laps to get used to the initial slide but it is predictible. Timewise, I have run very close back to back times with new tires.