Latest Fastrac

subrew
Posts: 32
Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:23 am

Re: Latest Fastrac

Post by subrew »

kevin willmorth wrote:
You seem to believe that the majority of FVs are at the existing minimum weight. If this is the case, then there is no need at all for any adjustment, and the argument is moot, as there is obviously not a problem to be addressed.
Out of curiosity, what percentage of current FVs do you think are at minimum weight, and what percent are under/over weight? Also, what do you think is the current average driver weight? From your post, it appears you think most FVs are overweight and that most drivers are pushing 200-220#s, therefore an increase of 50# in the minimum vehicle weight might help to level playing field.

In my eyes, it will in fact slow down a certain percentage of the class. I'm about 170# with helmet, and my car is currently 30-35 pounds under weight with me on board sans ballast.

Chris H.
jpetillo
Posts: 759
Joined: August 26th, 2006, 2:54 pm

Re: Latest Fastrac

Post by jpetillo »

kevin willmorth wrote:You seem to believe that the majority of FVs are at the existing minimum weight.
Kevin, I'm sorry that I gave you that impression. I don't believe that at all. It seems impossible to state anything clearly enough on the forum to not get misunderstood. What I was trying to say is probably better stated as follows: If we all go up to some new minimum weight, then perhaps a power modification be considered to bring us back up to the same performance as we're at now for those running at the current minimum weight, as we're already dangerously slow when mixed with some groups. Is that a bad idea? Also, whatever we choose for an additional weight may still leave some number or drivers over the limit with their cars, so perhaps we would choose a change on the high side to be fair. I'm not outright against your proposal in any way, but we need to consider the ramifications of changes very carefully and come up with a more complete solution if possible.
John
FVartist
Posts: 116
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 11:59 am

Re: Latest Fastrac

Post by FVartist »

It seems even though 19 were against and 12 were for they are allowing the removal of the horn.
Left Coast Formula Car Board
http://norcalfv.proboards.com/index.cgi?
brian
Posts: 1348
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: Latest Fastrac

Post by brian »

There is a tech bulletin regarding emulsion tube carriers as well. On page 23, it states that the holder is not a jet and cannot be modified in any way except to remove casting flashing. This will make a lot of carriers obsolete and I'm not convinced there are enough in stock piles to replace all the questionable carriers.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
njg005
Posts: 62
Joined: January 30th, 2007, 10:38 pm

Re: Latest Fastrac

Post by njg005 »

Regarding removal of the horns
Being one of the 19..... very, very disappointing. It's apparent that those on the comp. board could care less about the opinions expressed by their peers. With all the recent unnecessary rule "adjustments," I'm fearful as to where this board is leading our class. My opinion...increasing member frustration, decreasing FV entries and eventually the death of the class. Yes, I will write another letter expressing my displeasure to the competition board and board of directors...I hope someone reads it this time.
Nick
Thomas Galuardi
Posts: 25
Joined: December 13th, 2007, 3:00 pm

Re: Latest Fastrac

Post by Thomas Galuardi »

I am another that wrote to both the SCCA Board of Directors and the the CRB that I did not want the change. I also think getting 31 Formula Vee competitors to even write letter was quite a large number. But 19 to 12 and they change the rule. Were they in Florida? Were there any hanging chads? Look what happened to the country when we "elected" someone that did not have enough votes. Will this happen to FV in 8 years?
Why bother to write? It doesn't make any sense!!!!
Dave Gomberg
Posts: 60
Joined: December 16th, 2007, 5:39 pm

Re: Latest Fastrac

Post by Dave Gomberg »

With regard to the FV horn issue: first, member input is not a "vote"; second, the 19 against, 12 for are only the letters that arrived in January - others were received earlier. Let me observe that saying you are for or against something without stating a reason is less convincing than saying something substantive about why you are for or against something.

Dave
hardingfv32-1
Posts: 1014
Joined: December 1st, 2006, 8:01 pm

Re: Latest Fastrac

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

Dave is right, the quality of the input is very important. This is a political process. You have to convince the CRB and Brd of your position. No changes just for the sake of maintaining tradition is not a strong position.

Brian
brian
Posts: 1348
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: Latest Fastrac

Post by brian »

There seems to be a shift in philosophy with the current CRB and I find the change a bit troublesome. In the past, unless there was a compelling reason to change, a FV rule was not altered. Rule stability was paramount. Now it seems that all it takes is a requestor and not have the advisory and ad hoc committees voice any concern. I realize the CRb has to get away form the more mundane issues and rely on their advisors but this seems to be in contradiction to the class philosophy. Whether a letter is well written, or more than opinion, is not relevant. With hundreds of letters flowing through every month, most are barey read. It is the responsibilty of the requestor to prove an established need for the change and not a burden of proof requirement for those who oppose it.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
FVartist
Posts: 116
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 11:59 am

Re: Latest Fastrac

Post by FVartist »

input, whether a vote or not is still an opinion that this club asks for. My reason is safety, I was given a possible senario of a car going off course and burying it's nose into soft ground, with no bump stop the car might possibly flip over instead of staying upright and stopping. I've seen too many cable droop limiters fail, and know of many others without. Those horns are a positive safety issue and I'm not taking mine off. Just my opinion.
Left Coast Formula Car Board
http://norcalfv.proboards.com/index.cgi?
FV80
Site Admin
Posts: 1195
Joined: June 27th, 2006, 9:07 am

Re: Latest Fastrac

Post by FV80 »

Dave Gomberg wrote:With regard to the FV horn issue: first, member input is not a "vote"; second, the 19 against, 12 for are only the letters that arrived in January - others were received earlier. Let me observe that saying you are for or against something without stating a reason is less convincing than saying something substantive about why you are for or against something.

Dave
Dave,
In light of your post, would it be reasonable to say that anything posted by the CRB for input has already been given "consideration" by the CRB and it will PROBABLY go through ... unless LOTS of (detailed) argumentative letters are received?

Can we "read anything into" the exact wording of rules proposals as presented in FasTrack? Are there any guidelines that you can offer for the masses to consider when deciding whether they should go to the effort to send something to the CRB about a proposal?

Steve, FV80
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
Dave
Posts: 187
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 2:40 pm

Re: Latest Fastrac

Post by Dave »

You think we have problems, the FC guys all of a sudden out of the blue are getting a new intake system for the Zetec motors. The wording in fastrac makes it sound like a done deal. Jeremy T. put a post on Apex speed asking for immediate input by today for or against. Looks like someone was trying to sneak one through. What a crock a mid season change, a special map for a special induction. Rumors are it makes more top end power. We had this arrogance issue back in the 80's ,and it needs to stop.

Dave
Dave Gomberg
Posts: 60
Joined: December 16th, 2007, 5:39 pm

Re: Latest Fastrac

Post by Dave Gomberg »

FV80 wrote:Dave,
In light of your post, would it be reasonable to say that anything posted by the CRB for input has already been given "consideration" by the CRB and it will PROBABLY go through ... unless LOTS of (detailed) argumentative letters are received?
No, not at all. There are times when we receive proposals/questions from members that (after going through the appropriate advisory committee) get rejected immediately (this happens a lot); there are times when proposals are so blindingly obviously sensible that we put them out as recommended changes (or in the case of out-and-out specification errors as Tech Bulletin changes); then there are the "tweeners" that we just aren't sure about and we put them out as recommendations to see what kind of inputs we get from the membership. In those cases that are blindingly obvious, most of the time we're right and we get a handful or less of comments; but sometimes we get some real objections because we really did overlook something. You may not have noticed, but there are times when the CRB requests the BoD to ignore previous recommendations (basically, that says, we've reconsidered based on member input). In those cases where we aren't sure, we tend to get more responses, but not always. Despite what some people have claimed, the advisory committees and the CRB really do read the member inputs. And, excepting the totally irrational flames we sometimes get, we take them seriously. Sometimes, because there is real division between the members of an affected group, we have to make a choice and no matter which choice we make, some portion of that group will be unhappy with us. That's why we get the big bucks. (Yeah, we wish.) And, finally, there are sometimes larger issues, not apparent to the members, that sway us one way or another.
Can we "read anything into" the exact wording of rules proposals as presented in FasTrack? Are there any guidelines that you can offer for the masses to consider when deciding whether they should go to the effort to send something to the CRB about a proposal?
I don't think so. We aren't trying to hide anything between the lines. We (as I indicated above) may have missed something in our own deliberations and, if we have, we are relying on the members to tell us about those things. It is the case, that simple "Yes" or "No" responses carry less weight (at least for me - I can't speak to everyone's mind set) than a reasoned response. And, for me, the "leave us alone, its been fine for umpty years" is not a reasoned response. Not all change is bad.

Dave
kevin willmorth
Posts: 177
Joined: September 16th, 2007, 7:42 am

Re: Latest Fastrac

Post by kevin willmorth »

RacerGeek wrote:This is from an email sent out to the MARRS FV group. It was from a regional guy that does most of his own work on his car, not a Runoff's contender looking to move up the podium. It was an email he sent to the FV rep for input, so the actual request might have been different, but this was the intent of the request.

It is proposed that GCR 2007, Formula Vee Preparation Rules, Suspension, Section C.3.a.8. on page 181 shall be revised to read: The rubber portion and any portion or all of the bump stop horn may be removed up to its base at the beam upright.

Justification: Safety

During hard braking and hard cornering the lower suspension trailing arms can bottom out against the bump stops thereby eliminating suspension compliance and destabilizing the car at its most critical time. During maintenance, the bump stops pose an unnecessary hand and/or finger crush hazard. Neither removal nor retention of the bump stops provides any performance enhancement.

Those few who use the bump stop as a travel limiter can chose to retain the bump stops.
The rationalization offered here is really silly. And, if you set the car low enough to have a problem with the horns, the beam is mounted too low on the chassis, or you are trying to set the car lower than the design of the car originally intended. it also means the trailing arms are at a severe angle in full compression. In my car, the floor of the car hits the track well before the horns interfere - maybe I can ask they dig an 18" wide x 3" deep gouge in the hard braking zones at SCCA tracks, so I can keep the ground from destabilizing my car under hard braking? I do have to contend with the risk of getting my figers crushed when I winch the car down in my trailer, should I have them under the car when the tie downs are tightened... but that's not happened... yet. The stats on FV racers getting their figers pinched between the horns and trailing arms is... well.... hidden?

All that said. It does not seem to me that sawing off the horns will have no positive impact on performance, nor will a suspension designed to put the trailing arms at an angle that causes the interference prove to be a performance advantage. So why not? Anything that offers no real gain, but makes someone feel better about their car, to come out and race, is a non-issue.
Doug Kyr
Posts: 22
Joined: October 31st, 2006, 11:14 am

Re: Latest Fastrac

Post by Doug Kyr »

I totaly agree with the saftey justification allowing the removal of the horns. I have experienced the described lockup and skitish behaviour under hard braking with my Vector. My short term solution was not to brake as hard. I finally raised the ride height one notch on the adjuster.

Before I raised the ride height, when I step on the front of my Vector it bottomed out on the horns. This was never the case with the Citation that I owned. I haven't measured it but it looks like the beam may be tilted back more on the Vector (more caster) that the Citation.

It would be a sfety improvement if no car were allowed to bottom out in such a manner.

I think I will write the CRB and thank them for a job well done.

Doug

PS The bottoming out on the turkey legs has really bashed them loose. The legs are now a sloppy fit in the beam. I am looking to get a new beam as all the sloppyness has gobbled up camber.
brian
Posts: 1348
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: Latest Fastrac

Post by brian »

Geeze guys, I just don't know how everybody was able to run for the past 45 years without cutting these horns off. Thanks for getting this change. Wonder if raising the spring rate would have been easier?
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
FV80
Site Admin
Posts: 1195
Joined: June 27th, 2006, 9:07 am

Re: Latest Fastrac

Post by FV80 »

brian wrote:Geeze guys, I just don't know how everybody was able to run for the past 45 years without cutting these horns off. Thanks for getting this change. Wonder if raising the spring rate would have been easier?
Think of all the FINGERS that will be SAVED!! :mrgreen:
Steve
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
Edward Schubert
Posts: 110
Joined: September 10th, 2007, 5:06 pm

Re: Bump Stops

Post by Edward Schubert »

I'm confused.....can you cut them off or not? :?:
Ed Schubert
Zink/Citation 18B
edschubert@live.com
757-692-1181
hardingfv32-1
Posts: 1014
Joined: December 1st, 2006, 8:01 pm

Re: Latest Fastrac

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

Yes, per the Mar 08 Fastrack

Brian
Post Reply