600 cc MC engines in F Mod

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qreshadow
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600 cc MC engines in F Mod

Post by qreshadow »

Guys, if any of you read the minutes of the CRB in the last FASTRACK, you will have noted that they have recommended to the BOD that 600cc MC engines be allowed in F5; the mostly equivalent class to F Mod in the racing program. For us, that means that if the BOD approves that recommendation this Fall, the 600 engine will automatically be permitted in the F500 chassis' in F Mod as a GCR legal engine in 2011. What are your thoughts on this development?
Lynn
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Re: 600 cc MC engines in F Mod

Post by Lynn »

My thought is the two strokes will kick their butts. Might be a different story without the IIR's, but I don't think so. The events will sound better, though. :lol:
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77fmod
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Re: 600 cc MC engines in F Mod

Post by 77fmod »

What is the HP of a top 600cc MC engine?
77fmod
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Re: 600 cc MC engines in F Mod

Post by 77fmod »

Were there any changes mentioned of our cars?

JB
dd46637
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Re: 600 cc MC engines in F Mod

Post by dd46637 »

77fmod wrote:What is the HP of a top 600cc MC engine?
Right between 100 -110 stock, with the stock exhaust and no toys like a power comander.
Lynn
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Re: 600 cc MC engines in F Mod

Post by Lynn »

77fmod wrote:Were there any changes mentioned of our cars?

JB
No. The proposal is really for Club Racing. Some of the F500 guys are concerned about the lack of new two stroke engines and about the lack of growth of the F500 class. The allowance of motorcycle engines is believed by some of the F5 guys to be remedies to these concerns. Like all substantial changes, there is a lot of debate in the F5 communuty. It is a lot less accrimonious than the near fist fights in the FF community over the Honda engine.
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Re: 600 cc MC engines in F Mod

Post by Lynn »

dd46637 wrote:
77fmod wrote:What is the HP of a top 600cc MC engine?
Right between 100 -110 stock, with the stock exhaust and no toys like a power comander.
The current proposed rules require the 600's to use 29mm individual inlet restrictors. 27.5mm restrictors were tried, but the cars were way too slow with them.
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vreihen
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Re: 600 cc MC engines in F Mod

Post by vreihen »

qreshadow wrote:For us, that means that if the BOD approves that recommendation this Fall, the 600 engine will automatically be permitted in the F500 chassis' in F Mod as a GCR legal engine in 2011. What are your thoughts on this development?
My only thought is *what* 600 engine? I have not read the proposal, but am wondering if they are destroying the appeal of F500 as a spec racer class by opening it up to dozens of different crotch rocket engines that will make compliance checking a nightmare with everyone using a different powerplant.

Wheelbase and weight differences aside, look at what a 600cc FSAE car can do in A-Mod. Sure, they can play with forced induction, but have to put it through a 24mm restrictor plate (off the top of my head). In reality, I still think that the CVT and lighter weight of the snowmobiles is the right combination for Solo.

The big problem with using motorcycle engines in 4-wheeled vehicles is lubrication. They were designed to lean when turning, and generally don't have adequate oil pan baffling to prevent sloshing in corners when mounted in a car. Long story short, you're either going to have to switch over to dry sump or make pan/pump changes to overcome this, moving F500 further away from the spec racer concept.....
qreshadow
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Re: 600 cc MC engines in F Mod

Post by qreshadow »

Arthur,

IMO, you are correct in that these folks that have promoted the MC engine in F5 are trying to get away from the spec class concept and they will make this entry level racing class more expensive.

There are 4 MC 600cc engines listed as legal in the class for 2011 if this proposal get past the BOD. I'm willing to bet that the use of the recommended restrictor is for the near term only and the MC engine folks will come back pretty quickly to ask for less intake restriction as well as other items to make them "competitive" in F5 racing. The advantage is currently with the 2 cycles. But, IMO, this will cause a "arms race" between the parties and we, collectively, will be waiting for the next axe to fall in this war that will eventually trickle down to Solo. If you think there are parity issues now in F Mod, wait'll these MC engines get approved and the whining begins between the allegedly "haves" and the "have-nots" :roll: .

The dyno figures published so far indicate about a 118 HP figure for the current restrictor plate mentioned. The minimum weight with driver is 875#. Older chassis' converted to a MC engine will be a problem carrying that much weight so realistically, an entire rebuild would be recommended or a newer chassis used. The real cost of the conversation or the cost of a new car is, of course, arguable but I feel it will be a lot more then the MC folks are willing to admit to. Oiling is allegedly cured by the allowance of any oil pan or oiling system. Again, an opinion of those favoring this proposal. I guess the CRB has lost the information on oiling issues with the use of MC engines in other SCCA racing chassis. :lol: .

Lynn, as far as competitiveness in F Mod between the two types of engines in an F5, for the time being, yes the 2 cycles will still be a better choice. But after all the requests that will surely come for this or that, who knows for the long term? :|

Should we do anything now? I'm not sure. I know what I'd do if I was still on the MAC: relegate them to B Mod with all the other MC engined cars until their abilities or lack thereof become apparent 8) . But that's just me :lol: .
Lynn
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Re: 600 cc MC engines in F Mod

Post by Lynn »

Art, I think the two stroke CVT combination will always have an advantage for the first 150 to 200 feet. I don't think the MC engined cars will ever be able to make it up.

Arthur, the four proposed engines are Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha and Kawasaki. Several car have been or are being built with the Suzuki. At least one is being built with a Honda. I haven't heard anything about the Yamaha being used. I vaguely recall something about packaging problems. The Kawasaki seems to be the least powerful and is not being considered by anyone.

Oiling does not seem to be a problem with the 600. The mini sprint racers use them with an unmodified wet sump system. One of the converted 500's with a Suzuki has 310 minutes of time on the engine with a wet sump system. This car has a pan fabricated by Jay Novak. But, it is believed that the custom pan is not really needed. The only problems have been due to operator error. For example, the driver spun the car at over 100 mph and destroyed the starter and damaged the chain due to reverse rotation of the drive train.

Over on the F500 forum, the costs of conversion are all over the place. Depending on the chassis, new or used engine, reworking of the rear suspension or not, the estimates are $5000 to $12,000. One person insists on $17,000.

BTW, the sizes I gave above the the IIR's are really the numbers for the single inlet restrictor used on the Honda Fit engines in FF. The IIR sizes for the 600's are still being worked out.
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qreshadow
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Re: 600 cc MC engines in F Mod

Post by qreshadow »

"Art, I think the two stroke CVT combination will always have an advantage for the first 150 to 200 feet. I don't think the MC engined cars will ever be able to make it up. "

Yes, and off the corners too. We agree that the 2 cycles have and will have the advantage for the near term. However, what will come in the future is anybody's guess. Remember, these are some of the same folks who wanted to introduce a suspension into the class. So, I really think this is only the beginning of their efforts.

"Oiling does not seem to be a problem with the 600."

There have been only a few cars running and whether or not they will stay together is still an open question. All MC engines have oiling problems in automotive racing but the oiling problem can usually be solved, it just takes money and modifications. :lol: Time will tell about their systems when more cars are put on the track.

"Over on the F500 forum, the costs of conversion are all over the place. Depending on the chassis, new or used engine, reworking of the rear suspension or not, the estimates are $5000 to $12,000. One person insists on $17,000."

Yes, and I see that as a problem for an entry level class. You can go racing and be competitve with about $10K now with the 2 cycle and CVT. That's not going to happen with the addition of a MC drivetrain, no matter what some say now.

"BTW, the sizes I gave above the the IIR's are really the numbers for the single inlet restrictor used on the Honda Fit engines in FF. The IIR sizes for the 600's are still being worked out."

Yes.The range of HP for the restrictors under scrutiny is between about 108 and about 118 based upon the dynno figures posted. I can't remember the size of the restrictor that is being used for on track testing but the MC engine seems to be about 2 seconds a lap slower then the 2 cycle car driven by the same driver. At least, that is what is being posted but that driver has an agenda. :roll:

Also, devices like the Power Commander that can modify input into the stock ECU is, or will be, legal.
vreihen
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Re: 600 cc MC engines in F Mod

Post by vreihen »

I don't follow the racing side of things, but are they gong a different path than the FST group did when they forked off of Formula Vee?????
qreshadow
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Re: 600 cc MC engines in F Mod

Post by qreshadow »

vreihen wrote:I don't follow the racing side of things, but are they gong a different path than the FST group did when they forked off of Formula Vee?????
The answer is dependent on whom you ask. I feel that "they" are attempting to change the culture of the F5 class and that this is only the beginning of their agenda. Others feel differently. Of course, whatever the BOD decides to do, it will affect F Mod and as I said, the parity issue will become explosive. I don't know if the MAC/SEB will react or just let it happen.

I would think that if you or others feel that approval of this proposal could upset F Mod, a preemptive strike :lol: to the MAC would be appropriate to let them know your feelings. Just my opinion and as I said in an earlier posting, I know how I'd handle it 8) .
vreihen
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Re: 600 cc MC engines in F Mod

Post by vreihen »

qreshadow wrote:I would think that if you or others feel that approval of this proposal could upset F Mod, a preemptive strike :lol: to the MAC would be appropriate to let them know your feelings. Just my opinion and as I said in an earlier posting, I know how I'd handle it 8) .
Are there any F-Mod drivers on the MAC right now? I'm wondering if it wouldn't be in the best interest of the class to have a Vee driver on the committee if an opening comes up.....
qreshadow
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Re: 600 cc MC engines in F Mod

Post by qreshadow »

vreihen wrote:
qreshadow wrote:I would think that if you or others feel that approval of this proposal could upset F Mod, a preemptive strike :lol: to the MAC would be appropriate to let them know your feelings. Just my opinion and as I said in an earlier posting, I know how I'd handle it 8) .
Are there any F-Mod drivers on the MAC right now? I'm wondering if it wouldn't be in the best interest of the class to have a Vee driver on the committee if an opening comes up.....
My...you're up early today :lol: . Yes, there is an F Mod person on the MAC and guess what, ...he's one of your own. Mr. Mike Billings replaced a 2 cycle aficionado :P .
Lynn
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Re: 600 cc MC engines in F Mod

Post by Lynn »

Mike Billings is now a CM competitor in Lola T-644. His solo vee was in the classifieds on the SRacing site. It has been removed, so I assume it was sold.
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Re: 600 cc MC engines in F Mod

Post by qreshadow »

Yes, but I'm sure that he has not forgotten anything about a Solo V :lol: .
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