I'm having a discussion with a friend about the reason the F5 has become so much faster than the "new" Solo Vee. We agreed the F5 has an advantage due to its narrower track width and there is an advantage on some courses when the Vee has to shift gears while an F5 doesn't. But, we weren't sure about acceleration or handling advantages.
What are your thoughts/experiences?
Mike
Why Is the F5 Faster
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Vernon Maxey
- Posts: 68
- Joined: August 15th, 2006, 9:14 pm
Re: Why Is the F5 Faster
Hi Mike,
I believe you are right about the narrower track. When the course has a lot of narrow designs, the F5's have an advantage. If the F5 guys have their
tranny set right, they have an advantage. They are also lighter. I remember reading were lighter is an advantage. I know, we have more horses.
I am working on my Vee, lowering, narrowing, and putting on almost all of the changes that we are allowed. Except for the limited slip. I used the
1915 last year, Bob Q. beat me with a 1776.( I did not have new tires ) Now, I am not a " national caliber driver " so what I did last year has no bearing on the Vee's out come. I hope this year, with the changes, will help propel the Vee's closer to the front. And oh, as long as the surface is smooth, the F5's have the advantage.
V.
I believe you are right about the narrower track. When the course has a lot of narrow designs, the F5's have an advantage. If the F5 guys have their
tranny set right, they have an advantage. They are also lighter. I remember reading were lighter is an advantage. I know, we have more horses.
I am working on my Vee, lowering, narrowing, and putting on almost all of the changes that we are allowed. Except for the limited slip. I used the
1915 last year, Bob Q. beat me with a 1776.( I did not have new tires ) Now, I am not a " national caliber driver " so what I did last year has no bearing on the Vee's out come. I hope this year, with the changes, will help propel the Vee's closer to the front. And oh, as long as the surface is smooth, the F5's have the advantage.
V.
Re: Why Is the F5 Faster
Considering that we used to be very close to the F5's some very few years ago, I have also wondered how they have gotten so much faster in spite of our rules changes... However, I am not going to suggest any reasoning until I have had an opportunity to be at nationals with my car and new tires. And of couse enough seat time to drive the thing with the required anger....
JGB
JGB
Re: Why Is the F5 Faster
BTW,
I did not mean that last post to sound arogant. It's just that I have not had the opportunity to compete at that level in the past few years due to work issues. However, I do have my car completely updated with all mods except LSD...
I would suspect that if I am not able to be competitive with them then there is something else happening in their ranks...
My old car was not that far off of them back at Forbes and I know this one has much more torque and corners much better...
Respectfully,
Johnny B.
I did not mean that last post to sound arogant. It's just that I have not had the opportunity to compete at that level in the past few years due to work issues. However, I do have my car completely updated with all mods except LSD...
I would suspect that if I am not able to be competitive with them then there is something else happening in their ranks...
My old car was not that far off of them back at Forbes and I know this one has much more torque and corners much better...
Respectfully,
Johnny B.
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Vernon Maxey
- Posts: 68
- Joined: August 15th, 2006, 9:14 pm
Re: Why Is the F5 Faster
Hi Johnny,
Thats ok, I think we all know what you mean. My Vee has all the changes too except for the LSD. Its hard to know whats going on in Fmod. I would like to think that I haven't slowed down but we did improve this year than last. The only thing I changed for next year are the disk brakes, it makes
my Vee complete as far as the rules are concerned. I hope to have New Tires this next year. The economy got me last year, could not afford any doctor feelgoods. Hope to see you at Lincoln in 2010 and you too Mike.
V.
Thats ok, I think we all know what you mean. My Vee has all the changes too except for the LSD. Its hard to know whats going on in Fmod. I would like to think that I haven't slowed down but we did improve this year than last. The only thing I changed for next year are the disk brakes, it makes
my Vee complete as far as the rules are concerned. I hope to have New Tires this next year. The economy got me last year, could not afford any doctor feelgoods. Hope to see you at Lincoln in 2010 and you too Mike.
V.
Re: Why Is the F5 Faster
Hmmmmm.
I find this interesting that you guys believe that the F4/5s have gotten faster in the last few years. Interesting because there have been no rule changes that that I can think of that would support those thoughts. True we have legalized the 493 and the 494 Rave motors but looking at the results the last few years, there has been no noted difference between the 493 and the 494 non-Rave so I can't believe that is the answer.
A 494 Rave has not been seen yet as far as I know. Quadrini built one for himself last year but it hasn't turned a wheel yet and now has been given to a couple of his PA customers to develop.
What else might there be? A better pipe? Softer pucks in the shock canisters? I haven't been to Nationals in quite a few years but I think I would have at least heard rumors of some vast improvement in some aspect of the cars. But nothing has been floated around.
Gary K. is going back to a 440 next year. He likes those motors better for some reason. This year was the first year to see a 493 as top dog and last year, a 440 won and came in second this year I believe. Perhaps that might give us a clue as they are both being driven by two young guns.
Being an old guy, I hate to admit that I'm getting slower every year but it is a fact. So maybe, we're all just looking in the wrong direction
I find this interesting that you guys believe that the F4/5s have gotten faster in the last few years. Interesting because there have been no rule changes that that I can think of that would support those thoughts. True we have legalized the 493 and the 494 Rave motors but looking at the results the last few years, there has been no noted difference between the 493 and the 494 non-Rave so I can't believe that is the answer.
A 494 Rave has not been seen yet as far as I know. Quadrini built one for himself last year but it hasn't turned a wheel yet and now has been given to a couple of his PA customers to develop.
What else might there be? A better pipe? Softer pucks in the shock canisters? I haven't been to Nationals in quite a few years but I think I would have at least heard rumors of some vast improvement in some aspect of the cars. But nothing has been floated around.
Gary K. is going back to a 440 next year. He likes those motors better for some reason. This year was the first year to see a 493 as top dog and last year, a 440 won and came in second this year I believe. Perhaps that might give us a clue as they are both being driven by two young guns.
Being an old guy, I hate to admit that I'm getting slower every year but it is a fact. So maybe, we're all just looking in the wrong direction
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Vernon Maxey
- Posts: 68
- Joined: August 15th, 2006, 9:14 pm
Re: Why Is the F5 Faster
qreshadow,
After 9yrs of going to Nationals, looking back, I have noticed that all the new young guys that are coming into Fmod are F500/440 drivers. That may be the reason the F's are faster, young talented drivers. I don't know. I would like to think that the improvements that the Vee's have recieved would
make us faster, but what has happened tells us something else. It could be that are cars are so much different that parity is futile. Don't know. I would like to be competitive, but having built my car from the ground up, I'm just glad it works. Having retired from Hallmark Cards I enjoy working with my hands and creating the bits and pieces that keep my Vee working. I enjoy driving my Vee and I hope, Lord willing , that I will be able to drive it to my last day on earth.
V.
After 9yrs of going to Nationals, looking back, I have noticed that all the new young guys that are coming into Fmod are F500/440 drivers. That may be the reason the F's are faster, young talented drivers. I don't know. I would like to think that the improvements that the Vee's have recieved would
make us faster, but what has happened tells us something else. It could be that are cars are so much different that parity is futile. Don't know. I would like to be competitive, but having built my car from the ground up, I'm just glad it works. Having retired from Hallmark Cards I enjoy working with my hands and creating the bits and pieces that keep my Vee working. I enjoy driving my Vee and I hope, Lord willing , that I will be able to drive it to my last day on earth.
V.
Re: Why Is the F5 Faster
Back in 1995 when F Mod was created, I was not in favor of the Solo Vees being included in the class for the exact reason you mention: two completely different type vehicles that would make parity difficult. It has proven to be true unfortunately.
And now "they", the CRB, are comtemplating 600cc MC engines in F5 chassis' which would make those vehicles eligible for F Mod too. Additional problems for the MAC to sort out
. I truely hope that day never comes or if it does, the MAC/SEB places these new hybrids in B or A Mod where they belong. We don't need any more parity issues in F Mod.
As I said many times on this forum, I hope "your" new allowances make the Vees competitive. We wouldn't have proposed the "new" rules had we thought otherwise. Although we knew it would take an investment of time and money as well as few years for the improved cars to surface, I sure would've liked to have seen more cars out by now. You're the first to try.
In any event, the Vees will be faster and more fun to drive. So enjoy and have fun. Afterall, that's the real purpose of why we do this, isn't it ?
And now "they", the CRB, are comtemplating 600cc MC engines in F5 chassis' which would make those vehicles eligible for F Mod too. Additional problems for the MAC to sort out
. I truely hope that day never comes or if it does, the MAC/SEB places these new hybrids in B or A Mod where they belong. We don't need any more parity issues in F Mod.As I said many times on this forum, I hope "your" new allowances make the Vees competitive. We wouldn't have proposed the "new" rules had we thought otherwise. Although we knew it would take an investment of time and money as well as few years for the improved cars to surface, I sure would've liked to have seen more cars out by now. You're the first to try.
In any event, the Vees will be faster and more fun to drive. So enjoy and have fun. Afterall, that's the real purpose of why we do this, isn't it ?
Re: Why Is the F5 Faster
Art, many of the 440/500 drivers feel that they are getting faster. They say it is because F500 is a GCR legal class and they are benefiting from developments made by the Club racers.
69 Beach Solo Vee, #65 FM
85 Lynx B Solo Vee
71 Zink C4 Solo Vee
85 Lynx B Solo Vee
71 Zink C4 Solo Vee
Re: Why Is the F5 Faster
Art,
I will say that the changes have improved the car in many ways and I feel that I can be competitive with enough seat time this year...
However, it seems that this economy has hit us designer and engineer types hard. Especially those of us who were working on refinery projects. I have not worked in a year but have some prospects for just after the new year..
I hope to be at nationals next year to give them a run for their money.. LOL!
Best wishes to all,
JGB
I will say that the changes have improved the car in many ways and I feel that I can be competitive with enough seat time this year...
However, it seems that this economy has hit us designer and engineer types hard. Especially those of us who were working on refinery projects. I have not worked in a year but have some prospects for just after the new year..
I hope to be at nationals next year to give them a run for their money.. LOL!
Best wishes to all,
JGB
Re: Why Is the F5 Faster
Lynn,
Did they tell you what makes them faster? Give me something to work with here.
As you know, the SRs follow the GCR very closely. There have been no new GCR rules for F5 in the last few years either, other then what I've mentioned in my earlier post. As you know, I'm closely involved with one of the best F5 manufacturers in the country, and there has been nothing new. If there was, it would have been on my car by yesterday I should also point out that he doesn't keep things to himself for racers or autoxers. He has no problem passing information along to anyone that asks. I know 'cause he tells anyone that listens just how my car is setup . There is no big new trick out there, I assure you.
Certainly, cars can be improved, but without new rules to foster that, it is done in very small increments over time. You guys just got a massive new set of rules to improve your cars and I expect to see good results from that. If the F4/5 guys are developing their individual cars within the current rules and keeping that "improvement" close to their chest, that could be the only thing I can think of. But such mods wouldn't/couldn't be kept secret for long, word gets around fast.
If in fact they are going faster, I would more likely credit driver improvement then an overall improvement in all the cars. As I also stated, there are a few new drivers in the class that are making everyone else look slow but I think they'd be fast in any car. Also, you might factor in the smoothness of Heartland Park the last 3 years which kinda helps the F4/5s. That could have been a factor in some observations too.
Bottom line: without new rules or illegal mods, and not including the new hotshots, I can't believe they are going much faster then they have before. Unless someone can point to a specific car modification/improvement that makes them faster, I really doubt it's the cars.
Did they tell you what makes them faster?
Give me something to work with here.As you know, the SRs follow the GCR very closely. There have been no new GCR rules for F5 in the last few years either, other then what I've mentioned in my earlier post. As you know, I'm closely involved with one of the best F5 manufacturers in the country, and there has been nothing new. If there was, it would have been on my car by yesterday
I should also point out that he doesn't keep things to himself for racers or autoxers. He has no problem passing information along to anyone that asks. I know 'cause he tells anyone that listens just how my car is setup . There is no big new trick out there, I assure you.Certainly, cars can be improved, but without new rules to foster that, it is done in very small increments over time. You guys just got a massive new set of rules to improve your cars and I expect to see good results from that. If the F4/5 guys are developing their individual cars within the current rules and keeping that "improvement" close to their chest, that could be the only thing I can think of. But such mods wouldn't/couldn't be kept secret for long, word gets around fast.
If in fact they are going faster, I would more likely credit driver improvement then an overall improvement in all the cars. As I also stated, there are a few new drivers in the class that are making everyone else look slow
but I think they'd be fast in any car. Also, you might factor in the smoothness of Heartland Park the last 3 years which kinda helps the F4/5s. That could have been a factor in some observations too.Bottom line: without new rules or illegal mods, and not including the new hotshots, I can't believe they are going much faster then they have before. Unless someone can point to a specific car modification/improvement that makes them faster, I really doubt it's the cars.
Re: Why Is the F5 Faster
Johnny,
Sorry to hear that you are still unemployed. I hope your prospects pay out in 2010. Down here in Florida things are pretty dismal.
Glad to hear that you believe the new allowances have helped your car competitively. That's what the MAC has been looking for. Now all that remains is to find out exactly how much it helped
.
Sorry to hear that you are still unemployed. I hope your prospects pay out in 2010. Down here in Florida things are pretty dismal.
Glad to hear that you believe the new allowances have helped your car competitively. That's what the MAC has been looking for. Now all that remains is to find out exactly how much it helped
.Re: Why Is the F5 Faster
Artificial sphincter valves, which allow them to have insanely fast corner entry speeds?????qreshadow wrote:
Did they tell you what makes them faster?
Re: Why Is the F5 Faster
Arthur, you're not really helping here
Re: Why Is the F5 Faster
Art, no one told me specifically what they have done to get faster. Mostly, I think it is just an accumulation of small things. That happens even in the most tightly controlled classes. On the other hand, I know that Jim Murphy made some fairly major changes to the rear suspension of his car based on what he learned working with Dan and Clint McMahon. Those changes seem to have worked.
69 Beach Solo Vee, #65 FM
85 Lynx B Solo Vee
71 Zink C4 Solo Vee
85 Lynx B Solo Vee
71 Zink C4 Solo Vee
Re: Why Is the F5 Faster
Did the F500s get faster when they were allowed to use the 38mm vs the 34mm carburetors? I believe this happened for the 2005 season.
Bob
Bob
Re: Why Is the F5 Faster
Lynn,
Yes, a rear suspension re-design is always in play although there has never been a major breakthrough in that area. New ideas come along constantly but nothing works for everybody it seems .
I re-did the rear suspension on my car last year, different design and much softer. I lost most of the season getting that done. Don't really know if it is faster or not yet since I was running 2 year old tires after completion. Sure is softer though. Hope to find out this year whether I wasted my time or not
I haven't run Jim in a few years; no problem before. Maybe I should travel some and see who has the better design for 2010. Then again, ......maybe not .
Yes, a rear suspension re-design is always in play although there has never been a major breakthrough in that area. New ideas come along constantly but nothing works for everybody it seems
. I re-did the rear suspension on my car last year, different design and much softer. I lost most of the season getting that done. Don't really know if it is faster or not yet since I was running 2 year old tires after completion. Sure is softer though
. Hope to find out this year whether I wasted my time or not I haven't run Jim in a few years; no problem before. Maybe I should travel some and see who has the better design for 2010. Then again, ......maybe not
.Re: Why Is the F5 Faster
Bob,
I really don't think the carb change had any noticable affect. I never dynoed my engine with either carb in place so I can't be definitive on that. All I can say is it never felt like it made a difference.
From much earlier comments about the 2 carbs, for our purposes, the folks that supposedly know thought that the 34s would be better but I can't remember why. Of course, nobody listened and went ahead and updated, including me after a while.
Any gains in performance is really due or would be due, to the pipe. Nothing else seems to produce anything worthwhile. Folks are always looking for a new pipe design and they come out periodically. Who has the better pipe? Which liar would you care to believe?
I really don't think the carb change had any noticable affect. I never dynoed my engine with either carb in place so I can't be definitive on that. All I can say is it never felt like it made a difference.
From much earlier comments about the 2 carbs, for our purposes, the folks that supposedly know thought that the 34s would be better but I can't remember why. Of course, nobody listened and went ahead and updated, including me after a while.
Any gains in performance is really due or would be due, to the pipe. Nothing else seems to produce anything worthwhile. Folks are always looking for a new pipe design and they come out periodically. Who has the better pipe? Which liar would you care to believe?