The reason they run with us is because we are the bastard step children of Solo. We have been with the Fords in the past. Also with the Super 7's. We don't really fit anywhere and they don't want another mod class.
I just checked the results for the Nats back to 2005. When they have the same weather, the 500's run the same times as the Fords and are sometimes quicker.
If anything happens, FM and CM will be combined. However, both classes have been getting good turnouts, so that probably won't happen.
Nationals
Re: Nationals
69 Beach Solo Vee, #65 FM
85 Lynx B Solo Vee
71 Zink C4 Solo Vee
85 Lynx B Solo Vee
71 Zink C4 Solo Vee
Re: Nationals
In Solo classing, we have three different classes for Formula cars:remmers wrote:so here's a question. why are the f500's running with you rather than with the formula fords that come to autocross? or are you all in one big group? at least on the road racing side of things f500's are about equal in speed to the fords. so maybe that's where they belong in autocross too?
B-Mod: Formula Cars and Sports Racers legal under the current year's GCR. (Formula Atlantic, Formula Continental, ASR, CSR, DSR, F2000) They play the ballast game in the rulebook to keep things even.
C-Mod: GCR-legal SR, SRF, FF1600, and S2000's.
F-Mod: GCR-legal F500 (and F440), GCR-legal 1200cc FV (*way* out-classed!), and a Solo-specific "Solo Vee" built to rules that have no corresponding class in GCR.
Since an FV against an F500 is no match, the Solo committees decided to create the "Solo Vee" spec to level the playing field many years ago. The old Solo Vee spec in use through 2007 was a 1600cc engine, open tires/wheels, and a single carb of any size. As the F500's got faster over the years, the Solo Vees were stuck. Last year, largely through the efforts of Art Trier, the SCCA published a new Solo Vee spec that will allow a 1915cc engine with a single carb or a 1600cc engine with multiple carbs, in addition to many of the Formula First goodies such as R&P steering, disk brakes, etc.
Unfortunately, most of the talented Solo Vee drivers have left the class, and those who are left are faced with a bill in excess of doing an FST conversion to find out if the new provisions will make our pigs fly. To date, nobody has produced a Vee prepped to the new limits, but a few people are doing some of the updates over time. The SCCA is not going to give us our own class, will not give any additional concessions until they see a national-caliber driver in a fully-prepped Solo Vee at Nationals, will not move the F500's to C-Mod with the F-Fords (which run similar times in Solo as well), and has ruled out the cheap fixes of making the F500's carry ballast or run restrictor plates.
The only unanswered issue left is the competition surface itself. For many years, the Solo Nationals was held on bumpy concrete at Forbes Field in Topeka. The F500 has two weaknesses - hockey pucks for suspension, and a "live" rear axle. On the Forbes Field bumps, the Vees could almost hang with the F500's. When they moved our Nationals to Heartland Park a few years ago (same time they moved the Runoffs there), the smooth asphalt competition pads let the F500's excel. For 2009, our Nationals has moved back to bumpy military concrete in Lincoln, Nebraska. Armchair autocrossers are predicting that the Vees will be competitive again at this site, but so far only one driver (Vernon Maxey?) has actually registered to compete in a Vee with less than a month before registration closes.
Probably more than you wanted to know, but it will help anyone new to the issues get a better understanding of the issues.....
Re: Nationals
A couple of clarifications.
Formula First is restricted to the production disk brakes from the later model Beetles. They are heavier than the drum brakes. Solo Vees can use any disk brakes so long as the rotor is iron or steel.
Lincoln is not really bumpy. It's closer to HPT than Forbes.
Formula First is restricted to the production disk brakes from the later model Beetles. They are heavier than the drum brakes. Solo Vees can use any disk brakes so long as the rotor is iron or steel.
Lincoln is not really bumpy. It's closer to HPT than Forbes.
69 Beach Solo Vee, #65 FM
85 Lynx B Solo Vee
71 Zink C4 Solo Vee
85 Lynx B Solo Vee
71 Zink C4 Solo Vee
Re: Nationals
Ok, let me add to the comments that Arthur made since I have been around since the beginning of time 
and was involved from then to now. Perhaps some of you may care and some may not, but this is how it went down 
.
Back in the ‘70s, Formula Vees ran in what then was C MOD. They ran with the early 440s as well as other formula cars.
Does anyone recognize the name Looman?
Well, Joyce and Davy ran a FV and have (had) many National Championships in those early years with that car but as the program matured, they found that the FV was starting to be left behind. Sound familiar?
In 1982-early ’83, Davy, along with some others I cannot remember, approached the SEB and me as the then Chair and suggested an update to the 1600cc engine along with a 2 barrel carb and a few other things. I thought that was good idea along with my board members and in 1984, the Solo Vee was born. In the next few years as Modified Category changed, the FV and the new Solo Vee was moved to D Mod and the 440s to the new C Mod with the FFs.
Nothing much changed for the next decade. In 1994, a proposal was made by Jim Murphy to establish a new class for 440s and move the Solo Vees and FVs into this proposed new class. He had Solo Vee support for this but some 440 folks did not agree, including me. I thought it to be a mistake. However, the SEB was sold on the idea and in 1995, a “Supplementary” class was made available at the National Championship to show support for this new class. In 1996, F Mod was born. Since that time, and actually going back to 1984, the Solo Vees have been unchanged until two years ago.
In the fall of ’06 and after the National, Scott Nardin called me as Chair of the MAC and asked for a review of the Solo Vee issue in F Mod. He asked for a Solo Vee class. I thought it ironic that after 23-24 years, I was again being involved in a major change for a Vee. I did however, as in 1980’s, think it was a reasonable idea for the Vees as did the MAC when the subject was discussed initially with the committee. The SEB, however, said that they would not entertain the notion of a separate class for the Vees.
The MAC then had only a few options and we felt the best of them was to update the Vees to a more modern car and allow the updates to the engine, chassis, and suspension that had become available in the last 3 decades. We felt that the overall Vee was an ancient vehicle and if it was ever going to be competitive in ANY class, it needed to be modernized. You now have that ability to bring your car into the 21st. century if you choose.
Now, as stated in these forums, some of you were (are) resistant to doing this for various reasons, financial and otherwise. I understand that. However, if you were not going to get a separate class, and we were looking at an antiquated car to try to make competitive in an existing class, what other choice was there? BTW, don’t say add weight to the 440/500s. That would not have solved your problem in F Mod unless a great deal of weight was added and that was not something that the MAC wished to do for reasons already discussed. Also, please don’t say: ”Well, you should have moved the F440/500s to C Mod.” That also was not an option at the time since there was no data to support such a move.
Lynn has suggested that 440s and 500s be moved to C MOD (leaving F MOD for Vees) stating that the F5 cars in racing are running with or close to the Fords. Yes, they are sometimes able to come close and sometimes beat a Ford on a race track. However, comparing racing and Soloing is not quite like comparing apples to apples. Yet, in the last two years, F440/500s have beaten C Mod Fords. Will that continue as we move to a new venue? Is that also true for Divisionals and Tours across the country? I do not know, I just do not have that information.
Are the last two National Championship results defining proof that the F440/500s should be moved to C Mod? No. Will more results in the future support that move? Perhaps. However, in and of itself , remember that the same thing happens in other classes and categories and classifications do not change for various reasons relative to that situation. There is certainly no guarantee that the SEB/MAC will ever make that move.
So again, IMO, waiting for that to happen is a large gamble. Run your cars and enjoy the sport. If something is ever going to happen in the future, you need data to back up anything you wish to propose and that means participating now.
and was involved from then to now. Perhaps some of you may care and some may not, but this is how it went down .Back in the ‘70s, Formula Vees ran in what then was C MOD. They ran with the early 440s as well as other formula cars.
Does anyone recognize the name Looman?
Well, Joyce and Davy ran a FV and have (had) many National Championships in those early years with that car but as the program matured, they found that the FV was starting to be left behind. Sound familiar?
In 1982-early ’83, Davy, along with some others I cannot remember, approached the SEB and me as the then Chair and suggested an update to the 1600cc engine along with a 2 barrel carb and a few other things. I thought that was good idea along with my board members and in 1984, the Solo Vee was born. In the next few years as Modified Category changed, the FV and the new Solo Vee was moved to D Mod and the 440s to the new C Mod with the FFs.
Nothing much changed for the next decade. In 1994, a proposal was made by Jim Murphy to establish a new class for 440s and move the Solo Vees and FVs into this proposed new class. He had Solo Vee support for this but some 440 folks did not agree, including me. I thought it to be a mistake. However, the SEB was sold on the idea and in 1995, a “Supplementary” class was made available at the National Championship to show support for this new class. In 1996, F Mod was born. Since that time, and actually going back to 1984, the Solo Vees have been unchanged until two years ago.
In the fall of ’06 and after the National, Scott Nardin called me as Chair of the MAC and asked for a review of the Solo Vee issue in F Mod. He asked for a Solo Vee class. I thought it ironic that after 23-24 years, I was again being involved in a major change for a Vee. I did however, as in 1980’s, think it was a reasonable idea for the Vees as did the MAC when the subject was discussed initially with the committee. The SEB, however, said that they would not entertain the notion of a separate class for the Vees.
The MAC then had only a few options and we felt the best of them was to update the Vees to a more modern car and allow the updates to the engine, chassis, and suspension that had become available in the last 3 decades. We felt that the overall Vee was an ancient vehicle and if it was ever going to be competitive in ANY class, it needed to be modernized. You now have that ability to bring your car into the 21st. century if you choose.
Now, as stated in these forums, some of you were (are) resistant to doing this for various reasons, financial and otherwise. I understand that. However, if you were not going to get a separate class, and we were looking at an antiquated car to try to make competitive in an existing class, what other choice was there? BTW, don’t say add weight to the 440/500s. That would not have solved your problem in F Mod unless a great deal of weight was added and that was not something that the MAC wished to do for reasons already discussed. Also, please don’t say: ”Well, you should have moved the F440/500s to C Mod.” That also was not an option at the time since there was no data to support such a move.
Lynn has suggested that 440s and 500s be moved to C MOD (leaving F MOD for Vees) stating that the F5 cars in racing are running with or close to the Fords. Yes, they are sometimes able to come close and sometimes beat a Ford on a race track. However, comparing racing and Soloing is not quite like comparing apples to apples. Yet, in the last two years, F440/500s have beaten C Mod Fords. Will that continue as we move to a new venue? Is that also true for Divisionals and Tours across the country? I do not know, I just do not have that information.
Are the last two National Championship results defining proof that the F440/500s should be moved to C Mod? No. Will more results in the future support that move? Perhaps. However, in and of itself , remember that the same thing happens in other classes and categories and classifications do not change for various reasons relative to that situation. There is certainly no guarantee that the SEB/MAC will ever make that move.
So again, IMO, waiting for that to happen is a large gamble. Run your cars and enjoy the sport. If something is ever going to happen in the future, you need data to back up anything you wish to propose and that means participating now.
Re: Nationals
Art, I did not suggest that the 440/500's be moved to CM, nor did I suggest that the Solo Vees be left as FM. I did point out that the 440/500's and the CM Forumla Fords seem to have achieved parity. As you know, a great many people feel there are too many classes in Solo ane the Prod and Mod classes don't have a lot of friends in the Solo community. When some people notice that parity between CM and FM, there will be calls to combine the two classes and eliminate a class. While I think the chances of combining FM and CM are small, it is not impossible. In the remote chance that CM and FM are combined, the FF's, the 440/500's, Solo Vees, and if one ever show up S2's will all be one big happy family.
69 Beach Solo Vee, #65 FM
85 Lynx B Solo Vee
71 Zink C4 Solo Vee
85 Lynx B Solo Vee
71 Zink C4 Solo Vee
Re: Nationals
"Art, I did not suggest that the 440/500's be moved to CM, nor did I suggest that the Solo Vees be left as FM. I did point out that the 440/500's and the CM Forumla Fords seem to have achieved parity."
Lynn,
Sorry, I jumped the gun
. I thought you were inferring a possible parity move for the F440/500 group into C Mod as a few had done before and during the MAC's discussion on what we could do.
"As you know, a great many people feel there are too many classes in Solo ane the Prod and Mod classes don't have a lot of friends in the Solo community."
Yes. IMO - and I don't know this as fact -, the SEB seems more willing to consider adding a fendered class but not a Mod class since the numbers are not there.
"When some people notice that parity between CM and FM, there will be calls to combine the two classes and eliminate a class. While I think the chances of combining FM and CM are small, it is not impossible."
Well, it's going to take much more data then we have now. Then there will be resistance from both classes. It's a possibility sometime in the future but I'd bet against anything like that happening in the near term.
"In the remote chance that CM and FM are combined, the FF's, the 440/500's, Solo Vees, and if one ever show up S2's will all be one big happy family."
Yeah right!
Lynn,
Sorry, I jumped the gun
. I thought you were inferring a possible parity move for the F440/500 group into C Mod as a few had done before and during the MAC's discussion on what we could do. "As you know, a great many people feel there are too many classes in Solo ane the Prod and Mod classes don't have a lot of friends in the Solo community."
Yes. IMO - and I don't know this as fact -, the SEB seems more willing to consider adding a fendered class but not a Mod class since the numbers are not there.
"When some people notice that parity between CM and FM, there will be calls to combine the two classes and eliminate a class. While I think the chances of combining FM and CM are small, it is not impossible."
Well, it's going to take much more data then we have now. Then there will be resistance from both classes. It's a possibility sometime in the future but I'd bet against anything like that happening in the near term.
"In the remote chance that CM and FM are combined, the FF's, the 440/500's, Solo Vees, and if one ever show up S2's will all be one big happy family."
Yeah right!
Re: Nationals
In the new IM (Index Modified) class.....qreshadow wrote: "In the remote chance that CM and FM are combined, the FF's, the 440/500's, Solo Vees, and if one ever show up S2's will all be one big happy family."
Yeah right!
-
Vernon Maxey
- Posts: 68
- Joined: August 15th, 2006, 9:14 pm
Re: Nationals
One week to go guys before the fee doubles.
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Vernon Maxey
- Posts: 68
- Joined: August 15th, 2006, 9:14 pm
Re: Nationals
Well, I guess I'll be the only Vee at Nationals. I want to say " the Solo Vee is DEAD" when it comes to Nationals, but I know that there are a bunch of you all out there are not wanting to compete because of either the cost or your Vee is not ready to compete or you have other problems. We will not know if the changes that have been made will have an effect. I have not gone to disk brakes, I have shaved the dust lip off on my drums, I took off 11/2 Lbs.
per drum. I made my own Rack and Pinion, with the 1914cc eng. I am not a National caliber driver, so I won't have an effect on the changes made.
The one thing I do know, I will have fun driving my Home built Vee. I will miss all of you that can't come, but I will try to represent the Vee community
to the best of my ability. There's still time to sign up. Maybe next year?( Lord willing )
Respectfully,
Darth Vee #4
per drum. I made my own Rack and Pinion, with the 1914cc eng. I am not a National caliber driver, so I won't have an effect on the changes made.
The one thing I do know, I will have fun driving my Home built Vee. I will miss all of you that can't come, but I will try to represent the Vee community
to the best of my ability. There's still time to sign up. Maybe next year?( Lord willing )
Respectfully,
Darth Vee #4
Re: Nationals
Vernon,
I had all the plans to make it to Nats this year with my Vee and all the mods incorporated except for the LSD as I feel that it would not help a zero roll car.. I did have my car out for a test & tune this year and I will say that it is significantly improved. From that TNT I made a couple of other changes that should help it even more. I am particularily sad that I will not be able to make it due to this ankle ligament reconstruction that I just had....
Know that I would rather be out there than sitting here with my foot up in the air! Go, have fun, tell everyone that I said "Hello."
Have a safe trip and I hope you have perfect weather for it. Of course, you will because if I were to go it would definately rain bucket loads!
Johnny B.
I had all the plans to make it to Nats this year with my Vee and all the mods incorporated except for the LSD as I feel that it would not help a zero roll car.. I did have my car out for a test & tune this year and I will say that it is significantly improved. From that TNT I made a couple of other changes that should help it even more. I am particularily sad that I will not be able to make it due to this ankle ligament reconstruction that I just had....
Know that I would rather be out there than sitting here with my foot up in the air! Go, have fun, tell everyone that I said "Hello."
Have a safe trip and I hope you have perfect weather for it. Of course, you will because if I were to go it would definately rain bucket loads!
Johnny B.
Re: Nationals
Vern, I've been having problems finding anyone locally to fab the brackets for the rear calipers. Would you be interested in giving it a try?
There is a new participant here in STL looking for a Solo Vee. We had him try on your old Lynx, but he is too tall and too wide in the shoulders. He has registered here but hasn't been approved by an administrator. He is looking for a roller or slider if anyone know of one.
There is a new participant here in STL looking for a Solo Vee. We had him try on your old Lynx, but he is too tall and too wide in the shoulders. He has registered here but hasn't been approved by an administrator. He is looking for a roller or slider if anyone know of one.
69 Beach Solo Vee, #65 FM
85 Lynx B Solo Vee
71 Zink C4 Solo Vee
85 Lynx B Solo Vee
71 Zink C4 Solo Vee
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Vernon Maxey
- Posts: 68
- Joined: August 15th, 2006, 9:14 pm
Re: Nationals
Sorry to here about your ankle Johnny, I just had shoulder surgery in Dec., I've only been at one Midiv so far, going to the championships Aug 22 23.
I've only been to two regional events, not much seat time.
I will have fun but I would have more fun if we had more Vee's participating.
Yes, I'll say hello to everyone. Hope your ankle heals quickly. See you next year.
Lynn, yes I would be willing to give it a try. My son and I could figure out something.
I would need to know more about the brackets. We need to get together somehow.
I've only been to two regional events, not much seat time.
I will have fun but I would have more fun if we had more Vee's participating.
Yes, I'll say hello to everyone. Hope your ankle heals quickly. See you next year.
Lynn, yes I would be willing to give it a try. My son and I could figure out something.
I would need to know more about the brackets. We need to get together somehow.
Re: Nationals
Lynn,
Tell your friend to check out the classified on SR's site. I haven't looked but that is where I found my current car. Also, for what is is worth, I have a buddy here that builds race cars and trucks and does all my stuff. I would need some kind of drawing and or direction but he can fabricate anything and always manages to improve on my designs. Of course, if Vernon can actually put his hands on it that makes all the difference in the world..
Vern,
Thanks again and have a safe trip..
Johnny B.
Tell your friend to check out the classified on SR's site. I haven't looked but that is where I found my current car. Also, for what is is worth, I have a buddy here that builds race cars and trucks and does all my stuff. I would need some kind of drawing and or direction but he can fabricate anything and always manages to improve on my designs. Of course, if Vernon can actually put his hands on it that makes all the difference in the world..
Vern,
Thanks again and have a safe trip..
Johnny B.
Re: Nationals
Vern, I'll be in Lincoln for the Midiv. And, I can alway bring the car to you, if you have room for it.
I'm going to try to get some local people who want to drive a Vee to help get your old Zink ready for next year, Johnny.
I'm going to try to get some local people who want to drive a Vee to help get your old Zink ready for next year, Johnny.
69 Beach Solo Vee, #65 FM
85 Lynx B Solo Vee
71 Zink C4 Solo Vee
85 Lynx B Solo Vee
71 Zink C4 Solo Vee
Re: Nationals
Damn, severely deteriorated shoulders, knees and left hand arthritis have made this a limited last season in the Grey Turd Solo Vee. I will miss the FMOD crew, but I must move to a low effort (P/S and Power brake car). Looking at my options, not out of the Solo game, but out of the Vee. No, I'm not ready to get rid of the beloved Vee, I have some Kids and GrandKids that are ready to take up the torch in a few years. Good luck Vernon, enjoy the Nationals.
Charles
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Vernon Maxey
- Posts: 68
- Joined: August 15th, 2006, 9:14 pm
Re: Nationals
Lynn,
I won't have room to take the Vee home.
I would like to see the brackets first, to see if something can be done.
If I think I could fix it, could you bring the Vee to my house?
V.
I won't have room to take the Vee home.
I would like to see the brackets first, to see if something can be done.
If I think I could fix it, could you bring the Vee to my house?
V.
Re: Nationals
Vern, my post wasn't clear. I meant that if you had room at home, I would bring the car to you there.
69 Beach Solo Vee, #65 FM
85 Lynx B Solo Vee
71 Zink C4 Solo Vee
85 Lynx B Solo Vee
71 Zink C4 Solo Vee
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Vernon Maxey
- Posts: 68
- Joined: August 15th, 2006, 9:14 pm
Re: Nationals
Lynn,
I have some room for the Vee. Bring it on over, we'll see what we can do.
V.
I have some room for the Vee. Bring it on over, we'll see what we can do.
V.
Re: Nationals
Vern, it will be after Nationals. Every day off I have from now until after Nats, I will be at an SCCA event.
Well, maybe depending on your schedule, I could drop it off on the way to Nationals.
Well, maybe depending on your schedule, I could drop it off on the way to Nationals.
69 Beach Solo Vee, #65 FM
85 Lynx B Solo Vee
71 Zink C4 Solo Vee
85 Lynx B Solo Vee
71 Zink C4 Solo Vee
-
Vernon Maxey
- Posts: 68
- Joined: August 15th, 2006, 9:14 pm
Re: Nationals
After Nationals will be good.