Nationals

MBillings
Posts: 76
Joined: July 7th, 2006, 11:00 am

Nationals

Post by MBillings »

I've been discussing the competiveness of the Vee vs. the F5/F440s with a friend on the MAC. He believes moving Nationals to Lincoln will show the Vee more competitive than it was at HPT. I replied the Vee crowd is no longer competing at National events and we won't have the opportunity to see a head-to-head comparison between the cars.

So...who is going to Nationals? I see Vern has entered, but so far, no one else.

cheers,
Mike
qreshadow
Posts: 71
Joined: August 31st, 2008, 11:36 am

Re: Nationals

Post by qreshadow »

Mike,

I would like to see that happen but is Chuck basing his opinion on just the surface change or an updated Vee along with the surface change? It still might be too early to get fully updated Vees out to Nationals this year.
ultimate42
Posts: 30
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 7:33 pm

Re: Nationals

Post by ultimate42 »

I was unable to attend last year due to a new job, but I plan to be there this year. I am interested in seeing just how (un)competetive we are now. If this year is like last, I will be circulating a petetion for all of us to sign that wll ask for our own class, starting in 2010.
MBillings
Posts: 76
Joined: July 7th, 2006, 11:00 am

Re: Nationals

Post by MBillings »

Art,

I've been discussing Vee's vs. F5/440's with Sheldon, not Chuck. The prevailing thinking is: let's wait until a nationally competitive driver in a fully preped Vee competes at Nationals (and National Tours) before we conclude the Vee is not competitive. My assertion is that there are only two drivers who have trophied in a Vee over the last several years and I believe neither is going to Nationals. Further, I don't believe, as you suggested, there are not a lot of fully prepared Vees, yet. So we have a situation where we won't have the information required by the MAC for some time, if ever.

I was hoping someone on the MAC would realize we are at impass and note the F5's appear to be getting faster every event. That doesn't seem to be the case.

cheers,
Mike
qreshadow
Posts: 71
Joined: August 31st, 2008, 11:36 am

Re: Nationals

Post by qreshadow »

Mike,

>>My assertion is that there are only two drivers who have trophied in a Vee over the last several years .....<<

Yes, but that was before the new allowances. We gave you the allowance of performance updates to try and get Vees out of that rut.The MAC and the SEB wish to see the results of the updates before they'll consider anything else.

>>So we have a situation where we won't have the information required by the MAC for some time, if ever.<<

Yes, that would seem to be true if Vees don't respond to your call. We'll just be going in circles. Sheldon is right and his council does reflect the MAC and the SEB's current and past position.

As I've said repeatedly and why I shepparded the update through the MAC and the SEB, I'm interested in seeing the Solo Vees competitive but if they don't participate with the performance update we gave them, well.......there will be no basis for any quest on their part. No help. The Vees need to participate in order to show you can or you can't.

And, in response to an earlier post, the chance that the Vees will get their own class is extremely low, no matter what happens, probably even non-existant. We've been there, I tried that direction originally! That quest is just wasting energy and will prove even more frustrating then the position they think they're in now. I've said that more times then I wish to remember. But for those that still wish to go this route, please believe that I'm not really interested in argueing about this point, just stating previous fact and current thoughts and trying to give you the value of my SCCA experience and council :| .

Therefore, Solo Vees participating to prove or disprove their contention is the only real hope of moving their cause forward. A choice..... but by not participating they're only hurting their cause. I would encourage participation, but I think I've said that quite a few times in this post already :roll: .
MBillings
Posts: 76
Joined: July 7th, 2006, 11:00 am

Re: Nationals

Post by MBillings »

Art,

I'm in total agreement with your comments regarding a separate class for Vees. I don't think it makes sense (and I realize I'm alienating myself from the many of the Vee owners). The way the F/Mod class was created was by getting a lot of cars to Nationals and demonstrating the need for a separate class. Most of those cars were (back in the day) F440's and the F5's continue to prove the viability of the class.

My email to Sheldon was to ask if there was any life left in the suggestion to merge the Vees with E/Mod. I asked this based on Chuck's proposal and the results I've been seeing lately that the F5/440 crowd continues to be very fast/dare I say getting faster.

I agree that we need some fully prepared, well driven Vee's at Nationals. My thread here was to see if that is going to happen this year. It appears it won't. :cry:

cheers,
Mike
Lynn
Posts: 592
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 11:15 pm

Re: Nationals

Post by Lynn »

The SEB is going to be waiting a long, long time to see results from a national level driver in a fully prepared Solo Vee. National level drivers will not drive a Solo Vee at national events unless they absolutely cannot find another ride.
69 Beach Solo Vee, #65 FM

85 Lynx B Solo Vee

71 Zink C4 Solo Vee
qreshadow
Posts: 71
Joined: August 31st, 2008, 11:36 am

Re: Nationals

Post by qreshadow »

Mike,

The possibility of moving to another class, if thats what you guys really want, is more of a possibility then your own class. We did discuss this early on as an option submitted to us. At the time, we felt that updating the Vee offered more potential and less problems. Whether that opinion still exists within the MAC, I don't know. But based upon what I do know and what you have said Sheldon has advised, participation will be the only driver of moving forward.

Lynn, yes, they may be waiting a long time if Vees don't wish to participate. That would be unfortunate because what the MAC/SEB have said and continue saying is that the Vees have the ball in their court, play and give them data or don't, it's their choice. And if they choose not to play, their voice will not be heard and there will not be movement. As I said, unfortunate.
Lynn
Posts: 592
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 11:15 pm

Re: Nationals

Post by Lynn »

Art, the only truly national level driver that I know of who owns a vee is Scott Nardin. And he has chosen to drive a 500 at Nationals the past two years.

I would like to have my car at the Nationals this year, but I don't think it will happen. We are still trying to figure out how to mount the rear calipers. I haven't been able to find a fab shop since I have been working nights since January. I'd really like to get it out since I have spent more on the engine upgrade, disk brakes, rack and pinion steering (and the chassis mods to mount the rack) than I spent buying the car and trailer.

Even if I get the car out to Nationals or Tours, there is almost no chance that a National level driver will drive it.

Art, I appreciate your efforts on our behalf, but I now seriously doubt that a Solo Vee can be made competitive with the 500's. Or the 440's. Since I am most definitely not a national level driver and won't be winning any trophies regardless of what I drive, I will just show up, do the best I can, and have fun.
69 Beach Solo Vee, #65 FM

85 Lynx B Solo Vee

71 Zink C4 Solo Vee
vreihen
Posts: 577
Joined: August 5th, 2006, 9:39 pm

Re: Nationals

Post by vreihen »

qreshadow wrote:Lynn, yes, they may be waiting a long time if Vees don't wish to participate. That would be unfortunate because what the MAC/SEB have said and continue saying is that the Vees have the ball in their court, play and give them data or don't, it's their choice. And if they choose not to play, their voice will not be heard and there will not be movement. As I said, unfortunate.
The only way that this may get solved is if a mid-pack driver shows up at a National event with a Vee built to the new specs and DECIMATES the top F-500's. When that happens, there will be no shortage of big name talent looking for co-drives in Solo Vees, and a fire sale on snowmobiles like nobody dreamed of in a thousand years! :twisted: Of course, the F-500 drivers will whine to the MAC, and you'll be moved into C-Mod so quick that you'll never get to enjoy the benefits from the thousands of dollars that it cost to build a Vee to the new spec before you're sniffing Formula Ford exhaust fumes. :cry:

In all seriousness, I'd like to see someone itemize the expenses to update a Solo Vee to the new specs versus buy a turn-key F-500.....
qreshadow
Posts: 71
Joined: August 31st, 2008, 11:36 am

Re: Nationals

Post by qreshadow »

Lynn,

I would hope that Scott Nardin who is, I agree, an excellent driver, does not solely define what a "national class driver" is. I would hope that it would be defined from the observation of Tour, Divisional, and National drivers who do participate in F Mod. I would hope that the members of the MAC/SEB could separate the driver from the car and recognize that a given driver is doing the best he or she can with the equipment they have. I would hope anyway.

My earlier comment to Mike was based upon folks like you being ready and that maybe it was still too early. We gave you so much to add to your cars and we didn't expect to see a fully updated Vee for a couple of years because of all the associated costs and the sorting that would need to happen. And when that happened, we figured that we would be dealing with a modern car and we could evaluate the situation much better.

We are all enthusiasts and we all have the desire to make our type of car go faster. We thought the Vees would welcome the larger parameters they had to improve their cars. Everybody likes to make their car go faster :lol: . What we didn't expect was for folks to give up without giving it a try. If that is what is happening here, it would be a shame.

Is it really only about a National trophy or is it about doing your best with the stuff you have? Maybe I'm too much of an idealist because I believe it to be, for the most of us, the latter. And if the latter is what this sport is all about, then eventually, it will be noticed and "your" case proven.

Lynn, I guess most of these thoughts are for those folks still sitting on the fence. You may not be fully ready this year but you are participating with an updated car and you are helping the Vee's cause. Without caring about or knowing it, you are adding to the MAC's knowledge base. The more Vees that do this, the better "your" case in the future, whatever that case may be. I truly hope others will join you.
qreshadow
Posts: 71
Joined: August 31st, 2008, 11:36 am

Re: Nationals

Post by qreshadow »

Arthur,

I would expect that most folks that like a given type of car, wish to improve and tinker with that car and are not really into switching cars just for trophies. Some do of course, but most don't. If they were just trophy chasers, they'd be STOCK competitors who buy/lease the "car of the year" for a given class. Of course, a National trophy would be nice to recognize their individual efforts and boost their ego a bit but the "hunt" is really the enjoyment 8) . In the early years when F440s were in C Mod, I was just really interested in trying to catch Jerry, if you remember 8) .

We don't need one driver to beat the snowmobile cars, we need a bunch of Vee drivers trying.

What can a reasonably good used F500 cost? Somehere around 6-8K. A F440, maybe 4-5K and a rag tag snowmobile-engined car without updates? As low as 2k. But whichever, as with all cars, a good driver can negate the benefit of the most expensively equipped car.

Over the 15 years I've owned my car, I figure I've got about 16K into it trying to make it better and faster. Some of that wasted 'cause the driver has gotten slower :lol: .
Lynn
Posts: 592
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 11:15 pm

Re: Nationals

Post by Lynn »

Art, my car has not competed yet. Later this month I'll be back on day shift and I'll try very hard to get the car to a fab shop or machine shop who can make the rear caliper mounts.

When I speak of national drivers, I mean those who can trophy in any reasonably prepared car in any class at national events regardless of who the other competitors are. Right now, I don't think we have anyone like that in Vees.
69 Beach Solo Vee, #65 FM

85 Lynx B Solo Vee

71 Zink C4 Solo Vee
vreihen
Posts: 577
Joined: August 5th, 2006, 9:39 pm

Re: Nationals

Post by vreihen »

qreshadow wrote:I would expect that most folks that like a given type of car, wish to improve and tinker with that car and are not really into switching cars just for trophies. Some do of course, but most don't. If they were just trophy chasers, they'd be STOCK competitors who buy/lease the "car of the year" for a given class. Of course, a National trophy would be nice to recognize their individual efforts and boost their ego a bit but the "hunt" is really the enjoyment 8) . In the early years when F440s were in C Mod, I was just really interested in trying to catch Jerry, if you remember 8) .
The Vee community is an odd dynamic. Looking at it from the racing side, there's a faction (FST) that likes to tinker with, update, and improve their cars, and a faction that wants to keep them as they are with no updates whatsoever (FV). Take a peek at some of the other sections of this forum, and grab some popcorn when someone who doesn't understand the FV status quo comes in and tries to change the formula by suggesting updates to the 1960's specs. As was pointed out before the Solo Vee update proposal was developed, the Solo Vee spec as it was had no crossover capability to any specific club racing class, and any changes to the rules would take it even further away from the racing Vee specs. Anyone building a Solo Vee to the limits of either the old or new rules is doing it as a purpose-built cone chaser, which may also explain why there's not a huge number of them under construction right now. For the most part, what draws people to Formula Vees in general is low operating costs and a stable set of rules. While I applaud the MAC's decision to do something about the lack of parity, I have to point out that their solution goes against the prevailing philosophy among many Vee owners -- "Why are Vee owners being punished with a rules change because the snowmobiles got faster?"
We don't need one driver to beat the snowmobile cars, we need a bunch of Vee drivers trying.
Why? So the slowest F-500 drivers can get trophies too??? :lol: Seriously though, I understand the logic of needing to see more Vees out, and hope that the rule change didn't scare off what was left of the Vee contingent.....
ultimate42
Posts: 30
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 7:33 pm

Re: Nationals

Post by ultimate42 »

So we get 25 drivers to participate in a national-level event. So what? It sounds as if the SEB has already made up it's mind that the Solo Vees will never get their own class, nor will they be competetive in FM now with the F5's. Maybe the petition idea was sound, but instead of asking for a new class, we need to ask for a new SEB?
Seriously, who in their right mind as a National-level driver would even consider driving a "pig with lipstick" if there was no chance for glory?

If any driver who fits those credentials is interested, I offer my own car for them to drive at Lincoln this year.
MBillings
Posts: 76
Joined: July 7th, 2006, 11:00 am

Re: Nationals

Post by MBillings »

ahh, if we get 25 Vees at Nationals, we probably are in a position to ask for our own class. When was there ever 25 Vees at Nationals? And, in the conversations I've had with my two friends and Art (not that you're not a friend...maybe someday we should meet :lol: ), I've never heard anyone say they were not willing to make the Vee into it's own class if there was sufficient participation.

You and I agree in our belief that the Vee is not competitive with the F5/440. However, I remember have discussions with a previous Vee owner who stated the same, until Scott Nardin won the National championship.

I hope your car is fully prepared and a National-level driver takes you up on your offer. We can use the data.

cheers,
Mike
qreshadow
Posts: 71
Joined: August 31st, 2008, 11:36 am

Re: Nationals

Post by qreshadow »

>I've never heard anyone say they were not willing to make the Vee into it's own class if there was sufficient participation.>

Hmmmmmmm. You've heard that said to you about 2 years ago when Vee participation was at a peak. No positive response from the SEB at that time when we had the best chance of getting you a class. It wasn't even a "No", it was a "Hell no." If we could have gotten you a class then, we wouldn't be talking about it now :roll: .

However, if you are able to get 25 cars repeatedly, and I mean over a number of years not just one year, you may have an outside chance somewhere down the line. Who will be the first to start the ball rolling? 8)

I have no axe to grind in any direction but I still believe that getting your own class is a very difficult result for you guys to hang your collective hopes on. From an "insider's" position looking forward, you have a real upward climb. But if you want to hang onto that hope, so be it. Hope is eternal I guess.

I can't offer any more advice then what I've said in the last few posts, so I guess I'm done with this thread. Good luck in whatever direction you choose to take.
vreihen
Posts: 577
Joined: August 5th, 2006, 9:39 pm

Re: Nationals

Post by vreihen »

My $0.02 is that the SCCA has too many classes already. First, we had street prepared, which was a good idea at the time. When SP didn't evolve to meet the realities of 1990's import tuners, along came the train of "me too" ST and SM classes for drivers who found it easier to build a class for their cars rather than build a car for their class. If you take a look around, a 1994 Miata is legal in at least 6 different classes depending on what's been done to it! It has gotten so bad that regions have resorted to producing 3-page grids of allowable mods to help new drivers figure out which class(es) to run in. To wit: http://www.azsolo.com/classes/car_class ... t_2009.pdf .

As Solo Chair for New York Region, I hosted a town hall meeting back in April that was attended by over a dozen of our region's drivers ranging from national champion down to fresh out of the novice program. With the exception of one person, everyone in the room agreed that there were too many classes and that we were giving away attendance championships with no real competition. A discussion ensued, and the drivers themselves came up with a solution that everyone agreed with. The biggest gripe against PAX is that it doesn't compare different types of tires perfectly between asphalt and concrete. Everyone felt that it was much more accurate between cars in the same classing category, though. So, instead of basing trophies straight up on PAX, we decided to use the classing categories (stock, ST, SP/SM, P/M, Ladies, and Novice) as groups for trophies, and then PAX within those categories to determine who gets the trophies. I thought for sure that there was going to be a revolt when this was mentioned at the drivers meeting at our season opener, but everyone seemed to like the idea. One person was looking for his attendance trophy at the end of the day, because he won his class but didn't PAX well enough for a trophy in the category. Another driver thanked me for sending him home without an attendance trophy, because he now has a challenge to beat someone faster than him instead of going through the motions against nobody. (As an added benefit, I've got season sponsors on-board for the SP/SM category and the novice category, giving out special trophies and gift certificates to the winners in those two groups. Packaging up a category for potential sponsors is a whole lot easier than explaining 50-something different classes.)

Long story short, there are several Modified classes at the national level flirting with elimination due to not meeting minimum attendance figures. Rather than make a class for Solo Vees to add to the confusion, perhaps it would be easier to pitch the idea of building an indexed Modified class where adjustments between different types of cars could be made with a calculator and not wrenches or ballast. For example, the current FM PAX is .903, based on the fastest snowmobiles. So, we'll say that F-500's index is .903. The FF's in CM are .907, and maybe the CSR's are .944 in BM. To make things fair, maybe Solo Vees should be at .898, 1200cc FV's on spec tires maybe .870, and FST cars on their spec tires .896. (I'm just throwing out example numbers here, not proposing initial indexes.) If the F-500's get faster, bump them up from .903 to .905 for next year. Of course, it puts Topeka into the index-management game (which they seem to avoid other than ProSolo indexes), but I really think that it's better than making new classes. Plus, it may encourage club racers to participate in Solo events, since they can run in their GCR race trim and have a fair index versus competing against similar Solo-specific cars that have an advantage in autox events.

Outside of the administrative headache for event organizers, would this be something worth pursuing with the SEB given their hostility towards creating new classes for cars without fenders?????
Last edited by vreihen on July 8th, 2009, 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
remmers
Posts: 164
Joined: December 4th, 2008, 10:07 pm

Re: Nationals

Post by remmers »

I actually really like that indexing idea. I've been flirting with bringing the Protoform out to autocrosses for some time, but have no incentive because It would be nothing more than a very short test day where I burn through a set of tires exceedingly quickly.
vreihen
Posts: 577
Joined: August 5th, 2006, 9:39 pm

Re: Nationals

Post by vreihen »

remmers wrote:I actually really like that indexing idea. I've been flirting with bringing the Protoform out to autocrosses for some time, but have no incentive because It would be nothing more than a very short test day where I burn through a set of tires exceedingly quickly.
In thinking more about it, the same concept could be used at the upper end of the stock category. The SAC/SEB seem to be killing off the lower stock classes, trying to come up with a level playing field in Super Stock, Super-Duper Stock, and A-Stock, given the invasion of the Z06 Corvettes and other big-ticket "spec" racers. Rather than make a new class each time the SS bar gets raised, maybe they should make one index class for over-achieving stock cars with a base MSRP more than $40K and set individual indexes on each different car model?

But for now, does anyone think that replacing AM, BM, CM, and FM with an indexed class that has different published indexes between cars built to different formulas is a good or bad idea?????
Vernon Maxey
Posts: 68
Joined: August 15th, 2006, 9:14 pm

Re: Nationals

Post by Vernon Maxey »

OK,
I'm # 1, where are the 24 or 25 that need to sign up for Nationals-- THIS YEAR, I'm getting lonely out here. Please.
I like the indexing idea.
qreshadow
Posts: 71
Joined: August 31st, 2008, 11:36 am

Re: Nationals

Post by qreshadow »

I seriously doubt a MOD index would ever see the light of day for National events. PAX, probably the best index we have seen is still not that close to being 100% accurate IMHO. I doubt folks would cast aside a heads up competition for an index, even a PAX index. I know I wouldn't no matter what car I drove.

Pro Solo started using an index for MODS because turnouts were low. The result has been an even lower turnout for MOD cars in those events.

Indexes are needed and have a place for regional events for economic reasons and for later "bench racing" sessions over a beer or two, but at a National caliber event with a reasonable class participation, a heads-up competition is what folks crave.
vreihen
Posts: 577
Joined: August 5th, 2006, 9:39 pm

Re: Nationals

Post by vreihen »

qreshadow wrote:...but at a National caliber event with a reasonable class participation, a heads-up competition is what folks crave.
When you're the guy bringing a plastic spork (Solo Vee) to a knife fight (F-Mod), you'll do anything to try and level the playing field rather than getting your clock cleaned driving heads-up. Notice that I don't see a single Vee driver here saying that an indexed class is a bad idea, which should speak volumes for how this group still feels about the current parity in FM.

I also see it as a way to draw club racers with non-competitive cars under the existing Solo classing to our events. If we publish an index for every GCR-legal formula car category, it would certainly level the playing field. As I said, changing an index is a whole lot easier than adding ballast or dropping thousands of bucks into unknown car mods whenever the MAC tries to restore parity between the different types of cars.

I would personally submit the proposal to the SEB, but fear that I'd get drafted for opening my big mouth..... :roll:
qreshadow
Posts: 71
Joined: August 31st, 2008, 11:36 am

Re: Nationals

Post by qreshadow »

Arthur,

By all means, submit your index suggestion to the MAC/SEB. But I'll bet you a NY bagel with lox, it won't fly. :|
remmers
Posts: 164
Joined: December 4th, 2008, 10:07 pm

Re: Nationals

Post by remmers »

so here's a question. why are the f500's running with you rather than with the formula fords that come to autocross? or are you all in one big group? at least on the road racing side of things f500's are about equal in speed to the fords. so maybe that's where they belong in autocross too?
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