Nationals

[MBillings]

The two Vees at Nationals are struggling against the F500/F440 crowd. Does anyone know what modifications Bob or Vern have made to their cars, per the new rules. Are they fighting with a fully prepared car or one similar to last year's development?

Curious,
Mike

[vreihen]

It figures! SpeedTV covers Nationals on their web site, and the banner photo is of the snowmobile that won F-Mod.....

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/ ... ord-books/

[Vernon Maxey]

Mike,
I put in a1914cc, thats all. You can see my dyno test on utube. Bob put in a 1776 I believe. He also dynoed it. I came out with 98hp/105 tor.
Bob had little over 105hp/not as much tor. The courses were fun but our times did not reflect the performance we expected. You all need to write
to the SEB ( I know I will ) and let them know that what they give us is not going to help us be competitive with the 500's. Bob, C. Clark and myself
came in 21 22 23 out of 26.
v.

[Vernon Maxey]

Note,
The CMod times are the same as the 500's times. How about the 500's go to CMod and we have the class by ourselves.
Would anyone show up for Nationals then?
v.

[MBillings]

Vern,

With only three Vee's at Nationals, I think we'll have a hard time convincing the SEB that they should combine the Fords and the F5's and create a Vee only class. The last I talked with Chuck Voboril he felt a Vee, prepared to the new rules, could compete with the F5's.

I just want to make sure I understand your post about car prep for Nationals. Did you or Bob add disc brakes, limited slip, rack n pinion steering, or any of the other allowances? Or, was it just engine?

thanks,
Mike

[Vernon Maxey]

Mike,
We only did the engine modifications. The other mods, I feel, will not make the Vee any faster. I can stop my Vee just as fast with drum brakes.
The only difference with the steering box is the difference in weight. My Vee has zero roll, it sticks to the ground, don't need limited slip. I don't
think adding these mods will make up 3.675 seconds. I respect Chuck and the SEB recommendations, but I think they are not what we need. If the
500s are running faster than the Fords, thats the class they should be in. If the SCCA wants the class to grow, they need to prune off the faster 500s
to support the under numbered (15) CMods then, let us all show up next year and grow FMod. We can bring in at least 15 Vees.
Bob finished, I think 13th last year, this year, with a bigger engine he finished 22nd. Does that make sense? If we change the Vee and put in a bigger
engine, don't you think Bob should have finished better than 13th. He is a lot better driver than me.
Lonely in Kansas,
v.
P.S.
A Vee with lipstick is still a Vee.

[kohnmeister21]

I had mentioned 2 years ago at Nationals when I held the "Unnofficial Solo Vee World Championships" that the classes needed to be split up then. I was still a newbie then. My contention was that it would only cost the SCCA one(!) extra jacket since they only give trophies to the top 30% in each class anyway. Instead, it has cost Vern and Bob far more than what a jacket costs the SCCA to be the guinea pigs for the "Vee of Tomorrow." In trying to make his "as fast as a 500", I keep reading on forums where Lynn hasn't completed all the changes to his car as a disk brake conversion isn't all that cut and dried. I can only imagine what thats setting him back. All the while I parked mine and took a wait and see attitude.
Theres no turning back the clock now and undoing what has already been done. This Solo Formula Vee race community has been diluted because of the rule changes.
Now two years further along in autocross experience I do now fully understand why everyone was freaking out about the possibility of getting the SCCA to create a class. I've narrowed the SCCA letters down to 2 choices: its either the "Stagnant Car Club of America", or the "Slow to Change Club of America."
While it would be impossible to do what I am about to propose for stock bodied cars (theres way too many of them made in the last 100 years), it could (possibly) work with open wheel mod cars. Give each current variation its own unique class. Keep A Mod and B mod open for the heavy hitters or a place to put newer cars (should someone show up with a retired champ car) and give Formula Ford, F500, and Formula Vee each of their own classes. That way apples are running against apples which might bring some other apples out of the woodwork knowing they have a more level playing ground with which to play. This proposal might cost the SCCA an extra $90.00 annually in jackets at nationals but would likely save their membership substantially more in the long run. It would likely increase car count for each of the unique classes.
Now that I think about it, my membership dues that they will not be receiving in 2009 will have easily offset the cost of the extra jackets.
John Pennington

[vreihen]

I've narrowed the SCCA letters down to 2 choices: its either the "Stagnant Car Club of America", or the "Slow to Change Club of America."

"Stupid Car Clique of America" gets my vote, although back in 2001 I would have made the "A" into "A-holes" after the SEB turned my $37,000 investment in German engineering into a hopelessly-classed lawn ornament during one of their senseless stock class shakeups. Without naming names, more than one member of the SEB said that there is no guarantee that any particular car is supposed to be competitive where they class it. I haven't looked at the membership of the SEB recently, but if that's still their prevailing thinking then Vees could be considered disposable like they did to the popular Neon back around that same time.

Personally, I wouldn't be so quick to give up on the Solo Vee just yet, If Nationals is really moving to that concrete site in Arkansas for 2009, the days of the snowmobile dynasty may be numbered. My understanding of the HPT site is that it's tight and sandy/slick. With F500 suspension and a solid rear axle propelling it, there's probably not a more ideal condition to be driving a snowmobile...outside of snow, that is. With Nationals being moved back onto bumpy concrete, I suspect that the tables will be turned either towards parity or possibly even a little bit in our favor. In other words, don't throw in the towel just yet, because we may have the last laugh in 2009.....

[DanRemmers]

If they think the vees can be competitive with the 500s, then why not just put us all in CMod? The 500s are there already, so once (IF) the vees get that fast, then there's no reason for FMod to even exist.

To make a vee competitive with the 500s, we would seriously need to make them super vees--with full independent suspensions. How much would THAT cost?

[77fmod]

Everyone,

Okay. I have to chime in just to add another voice to this issue. In no specific order I am going to address several items in the previous posts.
However, firstly I want to ask you Vern, was your engine dynoed on an engine dyno or a chassis dyno? Even if you were on a chassis dyno and using the 7% losses incurred through the tranny, you should have a number around 110 - 115 hp. My 1600 would pull 110 on an engine dyno.. so that's around 100 on a chassis dyno.. I'm not singling anyone out here but we need to look at the facts.
Now, secondly, disc brakes are not just about braking!!!! They reduce your unsprunf weight by about 28 lbs and your rotating mass by about 18 - 20 lbs.. Mike B. you know the numbers, so chime in if you would like.
Thirdly, the SEB is not going to change anything until they have a totally prepared car in competition against the 500's to judge the difference... Mine will be there by next year.
And lastly, I also was in favor of splitting the class to keep the Vees where they were but that did not happen..

I agree that a move back to a concrete course with some undulations will go a long way to getting us back but that is another issue all together.

Cheers,

Johnny B.

[Vernon Maxey]

Hi Johnny,
The Vee was on a chassis dyno. My son put it on u-tube. 98hp+.07%=105hp,,,,1914cc engine.
The torque for the engine was 104.52
Do you think the disk brakes weigh less than drums? What is the cost of putting disks on?
I do plan to add the other improvements to my Vee, but from what I've seen, it won't help much.
If the National event is at HPT next year, you'll see. I may be wrong.
Another thing, why should we be dependent on what the surface of the course is?
I think that we should be competitive no matter what the surface is like.
Thats why we need our own class. The cars are different. Plain and simple.
v.

[77fmod]

Vernon,
As I stated before, I was for a separate class. The issue is that we are stuck with what they gave us.
When one has cars that are as radically different as the 500's and the Vee's in one class it is easy to see that different course attributes will affect each one differently. It's just the nature of the beasts...
Yes. The discs are way lighter providing you do your homework and find the lightest ones. However, they are not cheap by any means. somewhere arond $1400.
Mike Billings has the actual weight loss numbers for his application. Mine is slightly different but they both are significant. The numbers in the previous post are very close to what can be achieved.

I finally have mine running and am waiting on the rear discs but my car will have all the updates included by next year. If they kick my butt, hey, it won't be the first time.

I am discouraged that you guys did not fare better at Nationals and frankly don't understand where all the guys at the top came from... Even Kramer, Bluementhal, and Nardin were not plced well... What's going on? I'm just sayin'.. looks suspicious..

JGB

[MBillings]

To all,

I agree with Johnny's point about the SEB's willingness to create a new Vee class. I don't think it's going to happen for the reasons Johnny states. When we had fully prepares 1600 cc based cars, last year, it became obvious to the MAC and the SEB we were not competitive. Using only the rule that allows for a larger or higher compression engine is not going to convince the SEB that more allowances are required. Especially if only two Vees compete at Nationals.

I did the math on brakes and rack n pinion steering and realized that not only did they provide performance increases (which they certainly have on my car), they reduce weight, including unsprung weight. For the first time in my ownership of a Vee (12 years) I've had to add ballast to my car to make weight. Last year, I was over 40 lbs. heavy.

This year, I have been tuning my suspension, based on problems I discovered (but didn't know I had with the old steering box and heavy drum brakes), in order to use the additional horsepower/torque I now have, and to improve the car's grip. I didn't go to Nationals because the car, and I, weren't ready.

I think we have more work to do. And, I'm really hoping Nationals moves to a grippier and larger site where the Vees have more opportunity to shine. I'm not ready to write to the SEB asking for help. I don't think it would further our cause. I think developing cars to the limits of the rules and competing (at sites other than Heartland Park) is our best chance to either prove we've been given enough opportunity to challenge the F5's or demonstrating that we need more help. I just don't think we have enough evidence to take a stand. And, I doubt we will get a new class when only three drivers competed at the '08 Nationals.

With all respect for the opinions of others,
Mike