Autodynamics Advice

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Keith Lawrence
Posts: 94
Joined: December 15th, 2006, 5:46 pm

Autodynamics Advice

Post by Keith Lawrence »

I'm looking for someone with expereince with mid 60s Autodynamics FVs. I have found one that I would like to purchase but I know nothing about these. I did a complete frame off on my pervious vintage race car and usually outsource engine work, but do all the rest myself.

I think it is a good deal at $3000. It has been sotered in heated garage for the past 8 years and it runs, but is stated it needs a fuel cell (are these standard?), tires (easy) and updated safety equipment (easy).


I am converting from closed wheel, production car (1956 Turner - 948 cc) to FV to run with the VSCDA group and others.

Let me know if you can help and I'll send the pic and info.

Thanks
Keith Lawrence
Keith.Lawrence@FedEx.com
Pittsburgh PA

PS - please no poachers, I worked hard to find this and will be upset if it gets purchased from under me due to this posting. I hapopened to me before!
ajax
Posts: 131
Joined: July 4th, 2006, 9:22 pm

Post by ajax »

Kieth,
You don't say what model, but most early vees were converted to a Z bar controlled rear suspension anyhow, depending on how long it was raced, it may even have been converted to "zero roll suspension", if so it will have to be back dated back to the Z bar design for most vintage groups.
$3000 sounds OK, prices paid for vintage vees depend a lot on overall condition and what restoration / updating or back dating that needs to be done. The set up for most vees of this era are similar so a AD guru is not an absolute. I would get with folks in the group you plan to run with, to confirm their rules to see how much "back dating" needs to be done to make it legal. Also you need to know about roll bar rules height, dia., also if it has a front roll bar and if required? Fuel cells are about same cost std. vs custom, you'll need a transponder too @ $350. Engine overhaul can be handled by several on this site, you may want to have the transaxel looked at to confirm gearing sets used & condition?

Good luck and have fun!
Keith Lawrence
Posts: 94
Joined: December 15th, 2006, 5:46 pm

Autodynamics Advice

Post by Keith Lawrence »

I'm not sure of the model - how many where there? Any good website that have AD history and info?

I am told it is a 1964 that has sat for 8 years. And look to have z bar and other correct vintage equipment.

Here are some pix:
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[ external image ]

Thanks
Keith
joefuhring
Posts: 14
Joined: July 15th, 2006, 11:29 pm

Post by joefuhring »

I have a 1965 AD Mark IV. The body is the same as yours but my frame is made out of square tubing, aside from that most everything is about the same. What information are you looking for? Be glad to share anything that I know about the AD.

joe
Keith Lawrence
Posts: 94
Joined: December 15th, 2006, 5:46 pm

AD Advice

Post by Keith Lawrence »

Joe,

I quess my main questions are (1) does it look correct for vintage (VSCDA) level of prep (z-bar, generator and etc). I know the pix don't show some of the areas (front of the engine - or is it the rear) for the generator.

(2) Also - is there a standard fuel cell in these or would it be custom? I'd really like to run this Oct, but hear that custom cells take up to 3 months...

Any other advice for a new FV owner would be appreciated. I'm not new to vintage racing - have had a 1956 Turner (same as bugeye) racing for 5 years now and am diversifying to open wheel!!

I have to dig out the SRacing FV book to see about refreshing my memory. This offer came up suddenly - or the money to buy it did....and the car is about a 12 hr drive away from me, so all I have it the pix so far.

Thanks,
Keith
ajax
Posts: 131
Joined: July 4th, 2006, 9:22 pm

Post by ajax »

Kieth
A real decent looking vintage Vee. Looks like it was actively run, with a taller legal roll bar but no front roll bar was ever added. Only close up observation will tell if it can be called race ready. but at $3000 it seems well priced, with a good looking body and chassis. That cell is a question, the older vees were known for having extra room, so maybe a std 4 gallon cell will fit?

I found some detail on AD in a neat book called Vintage American Road Racing, 1950 - 1970 by Harold Pace & Mark Brinker.
AD developed the D1 / MK.1 in 1964, came with cable controlled rear suspension. and a enclosed long tail.
1965 brought theD1A / MK.2 with a simplified tail.
1965 also had the D1B / MK.3 with a bobbed tail
67 - 68 D4A / MK.4 was built and I believe your model. I would say the round tubing in the frame is correct over square.

The last model AD built before becoming Caldwell was the D4B / MK.5 in 1969 & 70, this was an all new frame and body.

Their last effort was the famous Caldwell D-13 which started the first production run for zero roll rear suspension in FV.
Keith Lawrence
Posts: 94
Joined: December 15th, 2006, 5:46 pm

AD ADvice - not a 1964...

Post by Keith Lawrence »

I was told it was a 1964. Being a 1967/68 would make more sense.

At least in the limted time I have been looking at pictures.

Thanks
Keith
Rickydel
Posts: 199
Joined: July 5th, 2006, 11:09 am

Post by Rickydel »

AutoD's Mk I-III had similar body styles.
The Mk IV was a new body style. The MkV Is the same body style as the IV but made for larger framed drivers. One in particular. ;-)
joefuhring
Posts: 14
Joined: July 15th, 2006, 11:29 pm

Post by joefuhring »

From the pictures everything looks in order to race; I race my AD in VARA the only things I would look into are the safety belts, fuel cell and make sure your fire equipment is in order. That being said I am sure VARA would pass you. Where are you planning on racing it?
Keith Lawrence
Posts: 94
Joined: December 15th, 2006, 5:46 pm

AD Advice

Post by Keith Lawrence »

OK - you talked me into it.

I am now a FV owner!!!! Hope to pick it up after the holiday weekend - it is 12 hour away, each way - UGH!!!

I live in Pittsburgh, PA and race vintage with the VSCCA (maybe no more since they don't like any Vs other than Formcars), VSCDA and VRG.

I go anywhere from NHIS or Lime Rock, west to Grattan, North to Mont Tremblant and South to VIR (I would go more South if it cold here at home... 8) My potential list and travel area just got a little bigger, since I will have more events to look at with the V.

Hope to see you all soon.
Keith
Keith Lawrence
Posts: 94
Joined: December 15th, 2006, 5:46 pm

AD Advice

Post by Keith Lawrence »

I picked up the car late last night.

The fuel cell is shot (foam inside is like dust), but the car has plenty of room for a replacement.

Does anyone have a picture of how the z-bar connects and how it is set up. I'm assuming like a anti-sway bar, links loose with the car loaded with driver and fuel. My rear hubs have holes on both the front an drear part of it - does froward bar link go into the forward hole and rear go into rear? Seems logical, but never know.

Many more questions to come.

Keith

PS - any FV experts in the Pittsburgh PA area. I have good beer, food and cigars - will trade for expert eyes and knowledge...
Dietmar
Site Admin
Posts: 650
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 11:56 am

z-bar

Post by Dietmar »

Keith:

From the pictures it looks like the bar is where it supposed to be and all you need are the down links to connect the bar to the axle or the trailing arm.
On the left bar- points to the rear, you should have a link going down to the rear of the axle tube. There should be a hole at the top of the axle tube retainer ( 12 mm or 1/2") This would be one place to attach the link.

On the right side ( bar points forward) the link would pick up on the trailing arm. If there is nothing there to attach the link to, then have something welded on.

Links are usually 5/16 rod ends -right and left hand, threaded into short pieces of aluminum.

Hope this helps.
Dietmar
Keith Lawrence
Posts: 94
Joined: December 15th, 2006, 5:46 pm

Z-Bar

Post by Keith Lawrence »

Dietmar,

That what I have, but I have about 4 holes on each "spindle" to choose from. I'll start with your suggestion - rear link to the upper rear hole and front to the upper front holes. I have to dug out the links and rod ends. He stated "they are in there" as we loaded about 8 boxes of spares into the car, not including the spare cases, cylinders, tins, fans, ....

Does anyone have a standard set-up for this type of car? I have lots of marker notes written on the car (ie: 1/2 degree on the beam, chamber %s on each drum, and several level marks on the frame) and I would love to check them against someone who is running or has run similar.

I have the SR Racing "How to Start" manual and now need to spend some quality time in the garage.

Thanks
Keith
Dietmar
Site Admin
Posts: 650
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 11:56 am

autod

Post by Dietmar »

Keith:

The most difficult part about getting a new "toy" is learning the nomenclature associated with that toy.

Spindles are on the front, so let's talk about the rear axle tubes and the trailing arms that go from these axles to a point forward- usually near the roll bar.

On your car as part of the axle, there will be a retainer that looks like it is part of the axle- has 4 bolts connecting the bearing retainer, the backing plate, and the axle together. It also has three holes in it. Again, for your car it probably has two bolt holes used for the trailing arm and one bolt hole is free. The top, rear bolt hole on the left side can be used for the link for the z-bar.

On the other side, more than likely there should be something attached to the trailing arm where you could bolt the z-bar link. If you have more than one, this could be because the way the z-bar and the links are attached does not allow for stiffening and softening of the z-bar.


Not sure what 1/2 degree on the beam refers to. If this is the caster (tilt of the beam in relation to the frame), you will want more. The camber on the front wheels is dictated by the link pins. You can get offset bushings to give you more camber or use what you have and try for the most negative camber without binding the front end.
The rear will be a matter for experimentation. Start with 2.5 degrees on EACH side with you in the car. This is accomplished with the springs on the shocks. Try to get the length the same. You might also want to weigh the front wheels when doing this as in your case the change in spring length with change the weight of the front corners. Again, try for equal length on the springs and overall length of the shocks. You want a slight load on the z-bar- again with you in the car. This will give you a start.

If there is anything that does not make sense, give me a call and I will go through this or anything else with you. Easier than typing!

Hope this helps
Dietmar
619 561 7774
Keith Lawrence
Posts: 94
Joined: December 15th, 2006, 5:46 pm

AD Set-up

Post by Keith Lawrence »

Dietmar,

All makes sense. I looked tonight and the beam has caster marked as 3-1/2 - I assume degrees. A 1/2 degree is marked on top of the upper torsion arm and all wheels have 4 degree chamber marked on them.

Seems like I have been given the basic set-up info right on the car.

Here is a shot of the rear where the z-bar and the trailing arms attach. I have an upper and lower trailing arm on each side.

[ external image ]

Here are a few other pix just for fun:

[ external image ]
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The top torsion arm for the front has 1/2 degree marked on it. Is this toe-in? Chamber is 4 deg, caster is 3-1/2, what would be left?

[ external image ]

The learning and working on the cars is half the fun, the other half is racing and socializing...

Thanks
Keith
Dietmar
Site Admin
Posts: 650
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 11:56 am

AutoD

Post by Dietmar »

Keith:

The 1/2 on the torsion arm probably refers to camber at that wheel. Hard to get more than 1/2 neg with stock link pin bushings.

3.5 probably is the caster

From what I can see, there are two things I would modify: 1-the fuel pump outlet(if it has not been modified-hard to tell) is a pressed in fitting and you have a braided hose attached. Those pressed fitting come out with fuel being pumped on to a hot engine.
2- the right side of the car has the same set up for the z-bar attachment as the left and if this is so ( again hard to tell by the photo) I would have a flat piece welded onto the top of the trailing arm so that the link goes straight down to the arm instead of backwards to the axle tube.

The only reason I could come up with for the two holes to mount the z-bar links is that the rods are /were not adjustable so the previous owner could change the setting by changing the location.

You have a project there in front of you with a lot of potential if Vintage is in your blood.

Hope this helps
Dietmar
Keith Lawrence
Posts: 94
Joined: December 15th, 2006, 5:46 pm

AutoD

Post by Keith Lawrence »

Dietmar,

The 1/2 degree makes sense for front chamber - I'll have to do some measuring once I get it started.

I will check both the carb inlet and the fuel pumps. I think they have all been modified to use screw in hose fittings and not the stock pressed in fittings. If not, then I'll add it to my growing to do list.

The z-bar connection on the right side is there like you suggest. Someone added a large flat mounting plate to both sides at the bearing retainer. Here's a shot of the RH side:

[ external image ]



And yes I will be running vintage with the VSCDA, VRG and others in the Northeast. I just sold my 1956 Turner, like a 948 sprite but with fiberglass body, that I ran for 5 years. These FVs are a little different...

MANY THANKS!!!
Keith
Dietmar
Site Admin
Posts: 650
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 11:56 am

AUTOD

Post by Dietmar »

Keith:

Looks like you have a good idea of what needs to be done.

I see the plate on the right side. Unless it is hidden, it looks like the hole however for the link is BEHIND the axle tube. If this is so, you'll want it in front of the axle (trying to get the link more perpendicular to the z-bar)

You have my number if you get "stuck"
Dietmar
Keith Lawrence
Posts: 94
Joined: December 15th, 2006, 5:46 pm

Re: Autodynamics Advice - Carb Inlet Fitting

Post by Keith Lawrence »

I'm getting the car all ready for my first outing and I'd like to replace the fuel line to the carb inlet. You can see it in the 3rd pix from the bottom of this thread on page one.

The fitting looks like a standard 1/2 pipe thread with coarse threads, but it is tappered and I can not find a replacement.

Anyone have an idea on what I can use? Here is a shot of the fitting alone:
[ external image ]


Thanks
Keith Lawrence
Pittsburgh PA
64 AD
Dietmar
Site Admin
Posts: 650
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 11:56 am

Re: Autodynamics Advice

Post by Dietmar »

Keith:

I can not see the end of the hose on your pictures.
I CAN tell you that the fitting is NOT 1/2" pipe thread- that would be larger than your thumb.

Looking at your pictures on the first page, I have a concern about the fuel pump. It looks like the braided line has a hose clamp on it coming out of the pump- this is not the best idea. Also, the old style pumps have a history of the brass pulling out of the pump. If yours has not been tapped, I would suggest doing that.
It also looks like you have a newer carb top which also had the press in brass and someone has tapped it for a fitting ( guess that is the one you are looking for).

Can you post a picture of the carb with the fitting removed? That would help a lot.

Dietmar
Keith Lawrence
Posts: 94
Joined: December 15th, 2006, 5:46 pm

Re: Autodynamics Advice

Post by Keith Lawrence »

Dietmar:

I think you suggested the improvements awhile ago and I heeded them.

I upgraded to a new style fuel pump and eliminated the intermediate solid line shown. I now have braided line from the cell to the pump and then to the carb. I do have hose clamps on the pump lines - is there a better alternative?

Here is a pix of the pump line:
[ external image ]

And here is a better view of the carb inlet and the related fitting. It's not quite 1/2 inch but it is 0.45 inch OD diameter at the threads at the open end.
[ external image ]

Thanks
Keith
Dietmar
Site Admin
Posts: 650
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 11:56 am

Re: Autodynamics Advice

Post by Dietmar »

Keith:

I see that you have changed to a newer version of fuel pump so the press in fitting is not an issue any more.

If the carb fitting is .45 on the end, that sounds like a 1/4-18 pipe fitting and you should have no problem finding that at a local hardware store. Get a fitting with a barbed end and go with a stock type of fuel hose. Nothing says it has to be braided. That way it fits the pump and the carb with hose clamps.

If this is not an option, let me know by tomorrow morning as I am off to the Birthday Party, but I could send you another carb top with a barbed fitting already installed and you could use a stock hose.

Hope this helps with your set up.
Dietmar
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