2011 Runoffs Time Cards and Trap Speeds

[Dave Gomberg]

Now available at http://www.scca.com/events/news.cfm?eid=3128&cid=50881 and http://www.scca.com/events/news.cfm?eid=3128&cid=50880

Dave

[smsazzy]

All the newbies take note. It is not all about horsepower. Notice that most of the time, the fastest lap was set on a different lap then the fastest speed was captured. Also, once again, the pole sitter was several MPH down on the highest MPH.

[problemchild]

Sorry Steven. Must disagree. As long as the Runoffs are at Road America, it is mostly about HP. Having the most HP does not mean you will win but it allows you an opportunity to be a contender. Trap speed at one location is hardly an indication of HP. With longbox, shortbox, split-case transmission options ..... 3 3rd gears, 2 4th gears ..... several different tire options .... I would suggest there were over a dozen different gearing configurations in the field, which with drafting, packs, and strategy, would have the biggest effect on these posted speeds.

[brian]

I think Greg is right. One or two MPH doesn't seem like too much until one realizes that a lot of time at RA is spent at terminal speeds. Too bad we can't qualify alone without a draft. Like the old days at Road Atlanta, there's a lot of luck involved and the folks that know how to work a qualy lap will prevail. The folks that run high speed tracks like in the Northeast and Southeast, seem to have an advantage at Road America. I'd prefer a more technical track for vees like we run on the West. But it's the same track for everyone.

[tiagosantos]

I think Stephen is right, it's not all about HP.. Aero also plays a decent part!

[smsazzy]

I wasn't speaking specifically about the runoffs. I was talking about racing in general. Too many people blame HP when they cannot keep up with the fastest guy at the track. I was simply pointing out that when you are new, you need to realize that HP is not the answer. It helps, sure, but spend money on seat time until HP is all that is holding you back.

[jpetillo]

It's always surprising to look at trap speeds and see how little they correlate with race results. Greg and Brian hit the mark here. The numbers would mean more if they were running alone, and then the configuration of the car would determine their trap speed, and how that would correlate with HP or lap time would be anyone's guess. Even lap time running alone is not the end-all, as how a car deals with aero will affect how well you can draft and how well others can draft behind you, as Tiago pointed out.

But, even if the driving skills were identical, we don't run alone on the track, and the package each is running and the history of events that affect track position, getting drafted, and drafting, etc., determines the winner. This is why it's so exciting - there is no predictable result. Just the drama of people dealing with situations along the way. Gotta love it!

Steven, your last comment was well said. As new drivers, it's helpful to know that your car is one step more capable than the driver, so you can be confident that the driver being improved is where the money needs to be spent. I would add that it's driver experience and car preparation as the key contributors to success. It doesn't take the best engine, suspension, tires, or car to run with the front pack at the regional level. John

[FVartist]

It doesn't take the best engine, suspension, tires, or car to run with the front pack at the regional level. John

Obviously, you've never run any regionals in the San Francisco Region. I would have to say to run consistantly in the front you need to be well prepared. The front runners in our region can give national drivers a good run for their money. It matters not if you are only racing regionals or nationals, it is how you prepare yourself and your car. Do not forget keep a notebook with you and write down notes after each session. Make a check off list and check off what needs to be done before or after each session. Good habits are the start of a racer that has good luck more than bad.

Bruce

[hardingfv32-1]

"Obviously, you've never run any regionals in the San Francisco Region....The front runners in our region can give national drivers a good run for their money."

And how has the last SFR regional front runner, Ron Wake, done at the Runoffs the last few years? Your statement is not supported by the facts. For that matter when has a SFR regional front runner, other than Ron Wake, raced a National?

Brian

[Bob Posner]

Ahhh,Brian applies what the therapist suggested would make him some new friends.....

[jpetillo]

It doesn't take the best engine, suspension, tires, or car to run with the front pack at the regional level. John

Obviously, you've never run any regionals in the San Francisco Region. I would have to say to run consistantly in the front you need to be well prepared. The front runners in our region can give national drivers a good run for their money. It matters not if you are only racing regionals or nationals, it is how you prepare yourself and your car. Do not forget keep a notebook with you and write down notes after each session. Make a check off list and check off what needs to be done before or after each session. Good habits are the start of a racer that has good luck more than bad.

Bruce

No, I haven't run any regionals in the SF Region, and perhaps my perception would change if I were to run there. Are you saying that the front pack all run National level equipment at SF Regionals - I'm jealous! But, I didn't say "in" the front, I said "with" the front. There's a difference - a second rate engine might not be able to draft past a first rate engine, but it can hang with a pack fighting for the lead. I also did say in my second to last sentence "I would add that it's driver experience and car preparation as the key contributors to success." Perhaps not far off from what you said, although I like your statement better with driver and car preparation as what is important. John

[jpetillo]

Brian brings up a good point. Regional guys at their home tracks can often run with national guys who come by but once or twice a year (and at times they can do so without top equipment). That's to be expected, and that doesn't shed a negative light on anyone. Deep experience with a track is hard to beat.

[smsazzy]

Ahhh,Brian applies what the therapist suggested would make him some new friends.....

LOL!!!!

[brian]

Ah yes, nothing like a roast pig at a Jewish wedding. Everyone has one of "those" weeks, and the Runoffs has a way of sneaking up and biting you. Ron Wake had a terrible week. He did win the SoPac Div national title this year. Defeating all challengers, including those who didn't even show up. While SoPac is not as competitive as say the Northeast, it takes a lot of effort, resources and talent to win a division anywhere. Opinions are like axxholes.... just because everyone has one, doesn't mean they have to share it. Like they say in the NBA, it's all about scoreboard, the rest is just trash talk. How's your scoreboard?

[hardingfv32-1]

The statement being challenged is very specific: "Obviously, you've never run any regionals in the San Francisco Region.... The [regional] front runners in our region can give national drivers a good run for their money."

Ron Wake is the only person who was recently a front runner at SFR regional races that is racing in Nationals. There is no one else to use as an example in regard to the above statements.

As far as winning the SP Div..... Why does someone travel out of their (physical) home division, NP, with the best FV fields, competition, AND TRACKS West of the Mississippi to race in the SP division with the worst fields, competition, and tracks? Are you claiming there is more to winning the SoPac Div national title than just spending the money to make all the races? I live in Los Angeles and almost never race in the SP Div. I have spent a lot of money traveling to back up my position.

I am sorry, but I do not feel our lack of participation this season precludes me from commenting on the subject. Have I made any statements that are not factual?

Brian, why do you babble around the point? Come out and just say what you mean: 'I must be right because I won more races than you'. There is nothing to be embarrassed by. It is completely logical.

Brian

[fvracer27]

it takes a lot of effort, resources and talent to win a division anywhere

So if there are 3 car avarage in a Div and 2 always crash or break and you are the only one winning (if you want to call it that) it takes effort, resources and talent?

If funny to me when someone wins a race and they are the only car out there. At that point to me it's useless to even drive the car because that is what you are doing just driving a car (NOT RACING).

Why does someone travel out of their (physical) home division, NP, with the best FV fields, competition, AND TRACKS West of the Mississippi to race in the SP division with the worst fields, competition, and tracks?

I can only think of one answer for this. "I want to win and nice checkered flag and I want to pass as few people as I have to"


Mark

[tiagosantos]

The flaming finally started, same day the local mountain opened for skiing. Coincidence? No way, Winter is here! Finally!

[brian]

Oh God, I should have known better. Mark, it takes a lot more than beating the other cars, regardless of how many there are, to win a division. Out here in the West, tow costs for example, are huge. So is the time requirement for prep and travel. Winning a division is a season long process that really does require a major commitment. Being the fastest is just the first step. I have a tremendous respect for anyone who wins a division or a regional championship for that matter.

I can't speak for others, but I have qualified out of SoPac for many years going back to when there were huge fields at Riverside. I chose SoPac because I could tow overnight and make races. NorPac required longer tows and vacation time I did not have. Cal Club was a founding organization that goes back over 50 years and put on the first races I ever saw. Yipes! that first race was 52 years ago. Another fun thing about SoPac is the division is finished national racing in April. That gives me the opportunity to travel back East and try new tracks.

I ran several regionals in SF this year and found the fields very competitive; finishing second a couple of times. The region has some young guns coming up and will be hitting some nationals this year. I also won the national at Portland; in the rain against the best in the West, including this year's 4th place finisher at the Runoffs.

Brian, I've always babbled. It's a cure for my stuttering. I try not to make my posting demeaning or personal, but folks still occasionally take my opinions personal and for that I apologize. I guess all I tried to say is that talk is cheap, results say a lot more for me.

[FV80]

... including this year's 4th place finisher at the Runoffs...

I'm guessing that you meant FIFTH place finisher. Shields was 4th - Andrade 5th (oops ). Still a high finish and a great drive.
Steve, FV80

[fvracer27]

Mark, it takes a lot more than beating the other cars, regardless of how many there are, to win a division. Out here in the West, tow costs for example, are huge. So is the time requirement for prep and travel. Winning a division is a season long process that really does require a major commitment. Being the fastest is just the first step.

Who here feels good about winning a championship because they were able to tow and get to a event?

I guess there are the people that can accept "hey I showed up so I win". What did you win the towing contest? Because you didn't win a race.

Then there are racers that do what it takes within there abilities to "race" whether it's racing 1 track because it's close or traveling to the runoffs. Racers race they don't care about Winning because they were the only 1 to make the tow.

When I started racing again what drove me to FV what the huge fields we are lucky to have in the northeast. If the fields were 2 or 3 cars I would have picked another class.

I love watching the 1 or 2 car class winner taking a victory lap "I'm the winner"

[smsazzy]

Mark,

Did you run many races this year? What were the fields like?

Since most vee races (runoffs included) end up as a bunch of packs of cars, it is very possible to have a great race with low entries; even one other entry if evenly matched. We averaged about 7 cars this year at nationals in NORPAC, lowest was 5 - highest was 8. (Looks like the NE averaged 10 cars this year for Nationals) I think winning against 7 cars an accomplishment. We typically see 8 cars, but this year there was a snow storm during the Thunderhill Double National in March. This brought our average down as several people had to drop out. Out west we have to go quite a ways.

Thunderhill is 1,370 miles round trip from my house. At 10MPG and $4/gallon, that's a $550 trip just in gas. Add in 2 nights of hotel (one down and one back) and two extra days of food and you are pushing $750 minimum just to get there and back.

The largest regional we had out here was a race put on by SCCBC in Mission. We had 20 cars. Finishing 5th and 2nd in the two races was quite a feeling. However, neither were as intense as my battle at the July 4th National when Dennis Andrade and I ran nose to tail for 22 laps and he beat me by 0.066 seconds.

So I would say it doesn't really matter how many cars are there, only that there is another that is in parity with you.

[fvracer27]

I agree you can have the best race in the world with just 2 cars but those cars need to be close in car performance and driver ability. I was referring to those racers that enjoy running alone or happy to win with limited competition.

I am very lucky to have great FV fields where I'm located,20 min to NHMS, 7 hours to the Glen and NJMP and just about 3 to LRP. We have 5 weekends at NHMS and always have 15+ cars. 1 weekend we had I believe 24 registered maybe 22 make the race. Weather your fast or slow there is always someone to have a amazing race with when you have cars to race. I'm not very fast but every race I feel like I'm having a battle of my life and I love it. If I had to run around alone I would not do it anymore or I would move to another class.

Mark

[tiagosantos]

Mark, I don't know If you actually checked or just took the cue from Brian and assumed Ron Wake ran by himself all season. I had a very quick look through the SoPac results and It looks like Ron had some competition. Looks like 4-6 cars at each race. Maybe more if you count the DNF's (oh, hey Brian!).

Wait, what were we fighting about? Oh yeah, drivers who like to race by themselves..? Who is that, anyway? I'm sure Ron would love to race in 20 car fields, but very few of us even have that option. Maybe I'm wrong and Ron was racing against sub-par drivers on purpose. Still, I can think of a couple good reasons for that. Suppose he couldn't make NorPac race weekends due to scheduling, but really wanted to make the runoffs. What else would he do?

[problemchild]

I think those of us who can race at two dozen tracks within 1,370 miles of our houses should be thankful.
I think those of us that can attend FV races with 10,15, or 20 cars within several hrs of our homes should be especially thankful.
I think those of us that can attend FV races with a race group that is not Formuls Alphabet should be thankful.
I think those of us that can attend FV races with just FV in the race group should be especially thankful.
I think those crazy enough to travel thousand's of miles to race against two or 7 other cars should be appreciated.
I think criticism of those who seek weaker competition should be kept to private bench racing sessions over cold beer!
Cheers!

[fvracer27]

Mark, I don't know If you actually checked or just took the cue from Brian and assumed Ron Wake ran by himself all season. I had a very quick look through the SoPac results and It looks like Ron had some competition. Looks like 4-6 cars at each race

I did not check, but I never ment to single out anyone (I don't think I did) I was just staying that racing alone is pointless.

I think criticism of those who seek weaker competition should be kept to private bench racing sessions over cold beer!

Someday I will learn when to speak