Rationals scheduled in the West

[brian]

Seems that after a couple of tests the BOD members from the West requested and received approval for making virtually all of the West coast nationals into combined National/Regional events. See Dec. Fastrac Not really sure I'm crazy about the idea but since the Runoffs are so difficult to attend from this end of the country, Nationals are poorly attended. The local regions have complained for years that Nationals cost them money hopefully with more cars they will reduce the cost a bit. I think this will be the wave of the future. Three BOD members Noble and Lybarger and one other, opposed the idea. Not really looking forward to running with regional club Fords who turn vee times.

[racing stuff]

So I guess that National SCCA license that I was told was so important to strive for in 1971, really wasn't. Looks like now I would be able to do it all (except the Run-offs, if one cares) with that Regional ticket.
I did hear about some costly accidents at the test event.
Good Luck

[tiagosantos]

So is this a result of low national attendance? What's the average Vee field at a west coast national? I understand that it may be frustrating to get stuck behind a slower regional driver in another class (you should be able to clear any slower vees without much work, I know I wouldn't see you guys after the first 2 corners ) but hopefully having bigger fields will outweigh that?

I guess I'm still living the racing fairy tale where everything is about fun, friendship and camaraderie, and bigger fields = more fun

[Mystique Racing]

Not really looking forward to running with regional club Fords who turn vee times.

Or slower............ and we are on American Racers. With national tires you are going to find even more CF's to play with. It's unbelievably frustrating.

[hardingfv32-1]

1) What is considered fun for a National competitor MIGHT not be the same for Regional competitors. Wining and being in the front pack are much more important to National competitors.

2) The best fields in the West are generally in the San Francisco region. This could be because the the tracks ARE some of the best in the country. Unfortunately, this Region is prone to stoppages or pace cars any time a car is immobile near/on the racing surface. A worker was killed many years ago. While a large field makes it easy to find someone to race with, it also increase the chance of lost track time. Each group eats its own down time.

Brian

[G.B.]

Without wishing to sound naive, surely the reason for combining Regional and National races is the low entries in both levels. Combining the Regional and National races ought to mean that there are enough Vees and Fords (‘F’s) to get their own race groups and not need to run them together.

[hardingfv32-1]

I doubt that will be the case, but I'm not sure how the race groups will be formed. Regional race weekends usually have 1 or 2 more groups than Nationals. In the S West we often run o 1-2 restricted Regional races on the National weekend (separate sanction number).

Brian

[brian]

BrianH is right and it will depend on the region. In SF we'll have a rational a month before the first regional. Our regional vee fields are generally well attended so it will depend on the badly folks will want to race an earlier event. Up North at Seattle they only have one really big event, the May double and that could attract some conference folks from Canada. In Portland they have no regional vee program so it probably wont have an effect.

[jpetillo]

Exactly how is a combined Regional/National event run - what schedule does the event follow? John

[Bill_Bonow]

John,

Read here for a description of a Rational from the BOD:

http://www.formulavee.org/interchange/v ... f=4&t=3865

[jpetillo]

Bill, thanks.

In that thread, there were multiple schedules/formats mentioned. But, I'm guessing that the format the BOD is intending is the National one. Is the format where there is two 20-25 min quals on the first day and then a 5 min warmup and 45 min race on the second day the same for all nationals in the US? So, is the intention that the regional guys just fit into that schedule - is that right? John

[smsazzy]

No, the intention is that you put the regional guys out at the same time as the nationals.

Sharing the track. Same session.

If that was what I wanted to do, I would be running regionals in the first place.

[jpetillo]

Steven, yes that's what I meant to convey - that regional guys are included in those very same sessions - but sadly said it in an ambiguous way.

Your point is well taken about running with regionals in the first place. I don't suppose they gap the start so the regional guys don't easily interfere with the national guys racing each other. Is there any way they identify by markings which car is regional vs. national when they race together? It seems like a reasonable thing to do.

[Bill_Bonow]

I don't think this came to be because Regional guys are asking for it, more like a change for club survival. I know in some parts of the country, things are great with oversubscribed entries and jammed paddock space. However, in our neck of the woods, races have been cancelled left and right due to lack of entries. This season (2010) there was one National and one Regional at Grattan. The region lost money on both events. Don't know the specifics on the National, but the regional needed 120 car to break even....... 52 showed up. The regions are not looking for profit, but they cannot survive on huge losses at every event. Based on this coupled with regions voicing concerns to Club Racing and the BOD, the "Rational" was born. If things continue as they are, I'd suspect that the whole Regional/National thing will go away and SCCA will simply hold "Club Races".

My bet is we'll see a few Rationals around these parts pretty soon.

[hardingfv32-1]

This issue is not that complicated. The regional cars will run what ever the National cars run. I think there are minimum time requirements for National events.

No need for the regional competitors to be concerned about the National competitors. A front running National competitor knows how to pick his spots and avoid trouble. If this is going to work we can not impose a second class status on the Regional competitors. Do not worry about those drivers who need to blame someone else for their own mistakes.

Brian

[Lynn]

If Gateway hadn't closed, the National races there for 2011 would probably have been changed to Rationals. The St. Louis Region has lost a huge amount of money on Club Racing in the last few years. Nationals with 65 entries just don't cut it. There is also the problem of too many races in the Midiv.

[Bill_Bonow]

Is there any way they identify by markings which car is regional vs. national when they race together? It seems like a reasonable thing to do.

John,

I get your point, but there is a large percentage of "dummies" armed with a National license, racing at the National level for decades. This video from the 2009 June Sprints is a classic example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GvH02WK3dU

Regional or National, no difference, morons are everywhere.

[neilcox]

The appeal of Rationals is the ability to have a Double Regional & Double National on the same weekend. In Mid West Division there are not enough entries to break even on stand alone R/R or N/N, in fact our standard R/N is only successful by adding an IT race during the Sunday National. Expect a very full schedule on both days and don't be in a hurry to leave if you are in the last couple of race groups.

Neil Cox

[Matt]

Bill

What is your definition of "National Dummies"?

Matt

[jpetillo]

In my statement, I was more concerned with knowing who you were racing against - which could be tough when the cars are identical between the two "classes". We have one F500 that likes to race with us vees because the second F500 is never competition (or not racing). He has fun, but it ruins the race for some of vee drivers as he separates vees running close together and cuts into our fun. We wouldn't want that to happen between the regional and national vee drivers.

About one guy taking out a guy from another class, that's certainly a concern as well. However, from the video that Bill directed us to, we would hopefully have less of a closing speed between any two vees. John

[Bill_Bonow]

However, from the video that Bill directed us to, we would hopefully have less of a closing speed between any two vees.

As pointed out in an earlier post, FV-N to FV-R is not going to be the issue at all. The CSR in the video was 25 seconds per lap off the pace for his race group. The fastest to slowest car in the 2010 June Sprints group 7 (FV and F500) was 27 seconds per lap. FWIW, fastest FV to slowest FV was 10 seconds per lap.

What is your definition of "National Dummies"?

I would say the guy in the video driving the CSR would pass my qualification standards for ND status. I guess my point is that a National level license has little to nothing to do with making one a better/safer driver. It only means one has completed more races (two to be exact) and paid a couple more bucks.

[Matt King]

There seems to be an over inflated sense of what really differentiates regional vs national. In any given class, the cars are built to the same set of rules and the events are conducted by the same set of rules. The licensing requirements and standards are essentially the same. There are minor differences in track time and a potentially wide range of skill and budget, but that's racing. There shouldn't be two money losing tiers of racing just because some people have ego problems racing up or down the food chain. If there was a desire by SCCA to actually differentiate the classes of drivers by any substantive means, the licensing system would be similar to the AMA rules for dirt trackers where you have to earn an Expert license on the basis of results and performance against your peers, not just participation.

But I agree with Bill that this will become a moot issue in a few years as necessity forces a combination of events.

[Matt King]

No, the intention is that you put the regional guys out at the same time as the nationals.

Sharing the track. Same session.

If that was what I wanted to do, I would be running regionals in the first place.

The time is coming in many parts of the country where you won't have a choice.

[tiagosantos]

Thanks Bill and Matt for clarifying a couple things I had doubts on. I was starting to get the impression that National drivers were by definition the best of the best and had strict licensing requirements!

[smsazzy]

The issue out west, is that our Regional classes quite often are running a spec tire. Club Ford, FV both use a spec American Racer tire. A club ford on a spec tire is an issue in the corners for a fast FV on Hoosier/Goodyears.

Please don't start talking now about a spec tire, but when you make that mix on the track, it is going to get frustrating. I would rather have R/N weekends.