Hoosier tire bead seating?

[BLS]

I have two sets of "new" Hoosiers, R45 and R55. New in quotes as the tires are stickers, but a 2007 purchase that came with the Citation. Stored properly and seem OK, but Hoosier cannot say what to expect past a couple years of proper storage... They seem in OK condition as the rubber still seems soft compared to my fingernail test of recent tires.

I had these mounted at the local tire place. On each set, one front tire leaks down over a short period of time. Checking the bead with 409 shows a lot of bubbles, so they are not sealing very well, but the beads appear seated. On one of the two, if you pressurize to 20psi or so, and wait about half an hour, you will suddenly hear it deflate, as though once the pressure drops to a low level, the bead unseats dumping the remaining air. At least I'm guessing that is what happens. The other one just slowly goes down until it reaches just a few psi, but no sudden loss.

It seems I have read the Hoosiers with stiff sidewalls are difficult to get the beads seated. Or maybe my wheels have some issue where the beads seat. They looked OK. So, remove and check the seats, use sealer of some type? Is this a common issue?

Any recommendations are appreciated.

Thanks,
Barry

[Bob Posner]

Aside from the sealing issue,I spoke to a Hoosier engineer a few years ago regarding how old a sticker tire could go and still grip. Response was quite good up to 2 years,ok until three,throw it away after 3. Opinion will vary,but I found that the old stickers literally tell the story - old browned sticker on what looked to be an ok tire was like a stone on the track.

[BLS]

Thanks Bob, I'm not holding out any real hope these are good, but I'll give them a try to get the car sorted, brakes adjusted, etc. I'll have a new set ready for the real testing.

As far as the stickers go, they are nice and white, look almost new in fact. The tires were stored in a cool basement and covered. Hoosier told me they just didn't know...

[brian]

Most of the rims we run are not safety bead style. Often, rust, chunks of rubber or other debris let on the rim will allow air to escape. If you can break the bead on the leakers and clean the rims you may solve your problem.

[BLS]

Brian, thanks. I cleaned these up and painted them before mounting tires, but maybe I missed something. I did not paint the interior. It seems pretty clear that 6 of 8 are holding pressure OK and 2 are not, so likely the rims themselves. Just thought I would ask first as breaking the bead on these things doesn't really look easy without taking them back to the tire place.

[Terry Abbott]

New tires have a thin film from out of the mold that sits on the inner edge of the tire ( by where it would bead up at ) you Need to Remove that extra rubber or there always going to leak and worse case is that on the out lap goes flat.

[FV80]

I have had to go back and reseal about 30% of the H tires that I have mounted. I bought some "tire bead sealer" off the internet and it seems to work. I always brush some on the bead before mounting but often have to break it down again and add more sealer for them to hold air for any decent period of time. (maybe it's related to that thing that Terry mentioned ?? ). I also have started to pay a LOT more attention to the bead surface on the wheel before mounting. A wire brush or even sandpaper is often required.. and some times, I STILL have to add more sealer later.
Steve, FV80

[BLS]

Terry, that's news to me. How do you remove it?

Steve, good to know it's not just me. I'll try to break the bead and check the rim first. If not I'll just have to get them taken off and examine them.

I do not know if these are safety bead rims. I think they do have a slight bump near the rim. All of these rims were ones I used on the Zink so long ago... never had any problems that I can remember.

Thanks for the help!

[Terry Abbott]

i use to use a razor blade until a Hoosier tire guy gave me what they use. i will take a picture and post it up.

[BLS]

Thanks Terry. It would seem this is not widely known. Since my tires are now mounted I can't easily look to see what you have explained. I think I'm going to remove both of these tires and examine the bead seats on the wheels and I'll look at the tires. If you possibly can, it might be useful to post a picture of the tire showing what must be removed. Maybe it will be self evident looking at a tire.

[brian]

There's no doubt that the current tires have very strong sidewalls and it makes mounting quite a challenge. I did 5 yesterday with my old manual Bates machine and I got really tired. Actually I think it's an age thing and I shouldn't blame the tires. If one is not very careful with the edges of the tires, some rubber can be torn or bent over making a leak possible. That's why pros cut the excess off cause being careful takes more time. I always inspect the tire and rim just before airing and seating them to make sure nothing will be caught between the rim and tire.

Without getting too graphic, we all know a little lube makes things easier. I use tire soap liberally then air cycle the tire a couple of times to remove water from inside the tire. If you have safety rims, like the BLS mentioned, they'll have a raised area about half way across the bead. You will definitely need to use some lube. Instead of buying a specific tire sealing material, save old brake fluid and antifreeze. Make a 50/50 mixture of the two liquids and paint the bead of the tire. They'll slip right on and help stick the tire to the rim. It might be a bit tougher to break the bead later on but the stuff really works. We used it to stick low pressure tires on sprint cars. Some of those fatties on the right rear ran less than 10psi and this stuff kept them seated!

[Speedsport]

Brian's right - the newer constuction hoosier's take some serious effort to mount. After they have been run once or twice it's not so bad, but new they can be a real pain. Napa sells some good old fashioned rubber lube that works well. Once every few years I get my wheels sand blasted, then re-painted. I put a good primer on the inside to prevent rust problems. I actually take a brush and put a very thick coat around the bead surface. I think the heavy paint helps even out the bead surface a bit for better sealing.

I've never once in all my years removed any of the extra rubber flashing on the inside.

Also pay attention to the direction of mounting. The tire serial number is supposed to be pointed to the inside of the car for at least the first heat cycle. I was told due to the direction of the overlap on the chord material.

I typically flip a tire after each session, so for a given weekend I will dismount and mount 4-5 sets of tires. On a manual machine, having to turn the wheel over for each bead. Good times. I can assure you practice makes perfect. Everyone has different methods.

But Brian, I promise it has nothing to do with you getting old. Even a young(er) guy like me is wiped out after doing a few sets in the 100 degree heat. My tire stand is in a barn.

[hardingfv32-1]

I have found it is helpful to heat the tires in direct sun light to soften the side walls prior to mounting.

Brian

[BLS]

Thanks for the tips. Both of the leakers definitely leak around the rim, so they are not sealing well. Maybe those have some issues with the rims that I missed. I did clean them up and repaint with a temporary coat, figuring I would bead blast them later. So much for trying to save some time...

[brian]

This may sound a bit scary but you can carefully drive the front wheel of street car on the side of a vee tire to break the bead. It's two person job and I've done many times. Once you have the bead broken, make sure there's no rubber bent over or torn. Push the offending material back into the rim. Make sure the tire is fairly centered on the rim all the way around, lube it up and add air VERY SLOWLY. Never ram the air into the tire. Do it a little bit at a time and keep an eye on the total pressure. Do not exceed 40psi. It should slide back on and seal. If not, take the tire to the shop that did the install in the first place and have them redo.

I use the hose and wash the tire and rim after every install. Not only does it take off the mold release, you can check for bubbles around the rim.

[BLS]

Thanks Brian, not sure I'm up to the beak breaking method...

The 40 psi limit, written on the sidewall, is this just a safety issue? Or can the tire be damaged by more? I ask as I'm not sure what pressure the tire shop used. I only noticed the 40 psi limit after I came back with the mounted tires.

Regards,
Barry

[brian]

The 40 psi limit has to do with several issues, the least of which is the tire. There have been cases of wheel failure from using excessive air pressure. During my original lessons on tire mounting I was told stories about blowing up rims and folks loosing their lives and it has always stuck with me. To this day, I always turn away and lean back, when airing the tire. Like I said, lube her up and go slow.

[BLS]

Thanks Brian.

[Matt]

I have had the same problem as everyone else. There is a product called "Bead Seal" available at NAPA and a few other auto parts stores. Check the web site of the auto parts stores around you and pick up a can. Break the bead and paint a coat on the bead and reseal.

One trip to the auto parts store will save you much pain.

Matt

[BLS]

Thanks Matt, I'm going to try some bead sealer first...

[jferreira]

Brian's right - the newer constuction hoosier's take some serious effort to mount. After they have been run once or twice it's not so bad, but new they can be a real pain. Napa sells some good old fashioned rubber lube that works well. Once every few years I get my wheels sand blasted, then re-painted. I put a good primer on the inside to prevent rust problems. I actually take a brush and put a very thick coat around the bead surface. I think the heavy paint helps even out the bead surface a bit for better sealing.

I've never once in all my years removed any of the extra rubber flashing on the inside.

Also pay attention to the direction of mounting. The tire serial number is supposed to be pointed to the inside of the car for at least the first heat cycle. I was told due to the direction of the overlap on the chord material.

I typically flip a tire after each session, so for a given weekend I will dismount and mount 4-5 sets of tires. On a manual machine, having to turn the wheel over for each bead. Good times. I can assure you practice makes perfect. Everyone has different methods.

But Brian, I promise it has nothing to do with you getting old. Even a young(er) guy like me is wiped out after doing a few sets in the 100 degree heat. My tire stand is in a barn.

New set of 45's for this past weekends NER race at NHMS.
3 of the 4 tires leaked.
At least I got a break in session done.
Dismounted, took a wire wheel to the rims to clean them up.
Black ruber gooped and they hold air fine.

John

[BLS]

Just as a short follow up, I aired both tires up again and checked them to see how fast they lose air. One of them is actually not so bad, aired up at 22psi, it was at 17psi 3 hours later, but I checked it several times which I'm guessing cost about 2psi, so maybe 1psi per hour. I think I could get by with that one.

The other one drops much faster and after about 30 minutes it has a sudden deflation which you hear. So, it clearly loses its "seating" at a lower pressure, maybe 7-8psi. I'll get the bead broken on this one and check the seat and if it looks OK I'll try the bead seal.

Thanks again for all the information.

Regards,
Barry

[sharplikestump]

Just a few random thoughts from a Hoosier dealer of roughly 30 years:
The tires have become much harder to mount over the years. This is not a bad thing, just a fact. When I got into Vee in 1979, I was able to swap used tires on the ground with a big hammer and two screwdrivers. Dismount, mount 2nd. tire in 2 minutes flat, but it was also pretty easy to knock a tire off it's bead on track too.
While I do like the wider chrome rims (some cars just handle better with them, especially on the rear), they can be a real bear to achieve seal on.
Mounting tires at the track produce more problems than in a controlled environment where you can beadblast, straighten (some), or dial indicate for dips and waves. There were times at the track, where the bead seal was your only hope. Interesting to hear about brake fluid and anti-freeze.
In general, if a tire leaks at an elevated pressure or off the car, it will leak worse when at racing pressure or under the loading in turns.
On the 40# max pressure: Touchy subject. Makes sense for sure. Probably a wise legal move, and using more pressure can certainly kill or maim, but sometimes a guy has to do what a guy has to do. I have seen safety-bead rims with earlier construction tires (H56 were notorious)) where I would heat the tires till they stunk, coat both tire and rim, hook up the hose where I could stand outside the shop and run the gauge up to 100 psi, waiting for the resounding "THUNK" of the first side seating. The scary part was when that would knock the air chuck off the valve stem and I would have to go reattach it.
OK.....this is the last post for a while........time to face up to it and go clean up the greasy chassis in the shop. ugh.
Mike P.