Brake thought for the month

[brian]

Last race weekend, I noticed some of my vee fellowship hitting the brake pedal while adjusting and it got me thinking about why some folks do this. What I came up with is if you have trouble centering the shoes while adjusting, especially while backing off the adjusters, make sure the shoes are still concentric to the drums. With the high friction shoes like Carbotechs, the grip tends to wear one end of the shoe causing the radius to not be concentric with the drums. This is not a criticism, as a result of the superior grip, the shoe does not get as flexed into compliance with the drum as much as a lower grip shoe would. The lopsided wear will cause the shoe to shift back and forth in the drum, hence, making you center it with the pedal. Check your shoes to see if they are still wearing evenly. Even though there may be material left, it may be time for replacement. I minimize this problem by rotating the shoes as often as possible.

[Bob Posner]

Brian - I rotate each weekend but often have a hard time figuring which shoe to which location based on wear,leading or trailing,etc. Do you have a system,i.e left top shoe to right bottom? Or maybe just inverting on the same side? Get it wrong and you'll have a big wear taper quickly.

[brian]

I flop the shoe over and put it on the same location. Left to right or top to bottom. It's actually it a swap between leading and trailing positions. You have to mount the shoes in the proper orientation for the adjusters and wheel cylinders so it's the only way to do it. I do not move shoes side to side since it means either moving the drum with the shoes or chancing a mismatch. I've thought about re-arching the shoes but the wear rate is high enough without grinding more off.

[hardingfv32-1]

This all sounds very attractive to future FV participants.

1) Learn how to adjust your drum brakes every other session.
2) Rotated your brake shoes every race weekend to help extend the life of your $130-150, front only, brake shoes.

Now this sounds all very enticing, particularly for those that are still holding down a regular job!

Brian

[Bob Posner]

Brian H Admittedly this stuff is arcane to anyone with modern brake experience,BUT managing this obsolete system is a competitive advantage while discs remain out of the equation.

[tiagosantos]

I think that might have been his point, Bob - discs shouldn't be out of the equation..

That's been discussed anyway and I know it won't change until a bigger percentage of the guys who grew up adjusting brake shoes retire from racing. It sure is a drag (ah! I made a funny..) to some of us lazier kids.

Thanks for the tips Brian! One more thing to add to the list of stuff I wasn't doing right

[brian]

What's really enticing is having someone try to turn the most innocuous post into an opportunity to flame about something. No wonder many folks would not dream of posting anything here. Nice job Brian, I'm out.

[fvracer27]

What's really enticing is having someone try to turn the most innocuous post into an opportunity to flame about something. No wonder many folks would not dream of posting anything here. Nice job Brian, I'm out.

I'm sure many agree. It's depressing to read this threads waiting for a handful of experts making negative posts. You guys needs for form a anger management group and hug.


I also can not believe people complain about adjusting brakes it takes like 8 minutes, it takes longer to get the monkey suit on and off. Even rotating shoes, cleaning and inspecting is really not a big deal, even with disc brakes this type of stuff should be checked and looked at. When you start having items that do not require you to look at you forget about them and the things loosen, crack or wear out. Trust me I like disc brakes but is it really that big of a deal?

[Bob Posner]

I agree with Mark. Adjustment on 4 wheels takes 15 minutes tops.With a good brake system including leverage that will lock the wheels at will,the limitation is tire grip not drum brakes. In trying to help those with weak brakes,more often than not the pushrod lengths,bias bar,over-center pedal or a poor fulcrum proves to be the problem. Once cured,they're good for the duration. There are an awful lot of vees that won't lock the wheels.

[tiagosantos]

Like I said, it's not worth discussing, it's not gonna change and that's that.

I'm glad your brakes work fantastically and that it takes you a couple minutes per wheel to adjust - not sarcasm either. That's part of the reason I'm skipping this season (and most likely next, by the way things are going) to strip my car down and put it back together again. My shit never worked as well as it seems to do for everyone else.

Like the original post mentioned, I'm one of those who has to pump the pedal to get the shoes centered, multiple times actually. When I have to get down on the floor of the garage (single car garage, so even finding room to lie down is a miracle) to adjust the damn things, then get up to pump the pedal, then repeat 2 or 3 times per wheel, it sure as hell doesn't take me 8 minutes. And I'm not even counting the half hour break I take between the fronts and rears to go punch a cat in the throat after the frustration of trying to adjust two wheels and dealing with the back pain of getting up and laying down.

Yeah, call me lazy but I'd rather bolt the discs, buy $20 dollar pads and be done with it for a couple years. I can nut and bolt like the best of them, I don't need to take my brakes apart as an excuse to put a wrench on a bolt. I know I'm in the minority that loves to race, but doesn't care much for working on the car.

So excuse my rant and let's let the forum go back to the slumber it has been for the past few months.. I agree we're much better off without the negative posts, but at least we got some traffic for the sponsors!

edit: My brakes do work fairly well after the circus act, I can flat spot my tires like a boss!

[fvracer27]

I agree with Mark. Adjustment on 4 wheels takes 15 minutes tops.With a good brake system including leverage that will lock the wheels at will,the limitation is tire grip not drum brakes. In trying to help those with weak brakes,more often than not the pushrod lengths,bias bar,over-center pedal or a poor fulcrum proves to be the problem. Once cured,they're good for the duration. There are an awful lot of vees that won't lock the wheels.

Exactly

[fvracer27]

Yeah, call me lazy but I'd rather bolt the discs, buy $20 dollar pads and be done with it for a couple years. I can nut and bolt like the best of them, I don't need to take my brakes apart as an excuse to put a wrench on a bolt. I know I'm in the minority that loves to race, but doesn't care much for working on the car.

If it were only that easy

Ball joint beam with disc would be the way to go like the FST guys keep trying to beat in everyone head and I'm serious it is the way to go but it's not just a simple bolt on they tell you it is but it's not, the tubes are wider apart which would require little to a lot of body mods on cars not to mention the bolt spacing is different which also requires mods, then you still have to deal with 4 lug wheels. Seems like learning how to adjust brakes is pretty the lazy way.


tiagosantos

Why do you have to pump to center? Do you have good masters? Does your balance bar work correctly and does not flop side to side? Does your brake pedal go over center when pushing on the pedal? They biggest problem I think people have with these brakes is they are always using crap parts, not saying you are, I'm just saying. Everyone thinks they have a good used part but it really is someone's throw away. The way I look at it and maybe the reason I don't have a problem is because I know I have good stuff I toss the master and replace with new good ones so there is no question I know where the came from, I start with fresh drums not a used 40 year old rusted beetle drum turned down, again not saying you can not make old drums work but I use new. I make sure I have good springs new wheel Cylinders all of them and the correct adjusters for the shoes (I made the mistake with the adjusters). Once I have a good base I turn all adjusters in all the way turn out 1 at a time until it locks the drum them back off 3 to 4 clicks move to the next. I bleed all the brakes alone with a long clear tube the fits tight on the bleeders and I loop the tube up higher than the wheel into a bottle, open the bleeder slightly just enough to let fluid out, hand pump the pedal until fluid comes out with bubbles, lock bleeder and move to next wheel. Works every time the first time, rock hard pedal and I can lock wheels no problem and lock them the entire race without fade (until I had a pedal snap ) I know some people with complain they don't want to buy new parts but sorry I don't mess with brakes I want them to work when I need them.

After I have good brakes I adjust 1 time at home before the race weekend and 1 maybe 2 times durning a 3 day weekend first day being a test day.

Another good thing to do is put a arrow on either side of the adjusting hole so it will remind you which way to rotate the adjuster so when it's time to adjust it only takes 3,4 maybe 5 clicks and its tight then back it off 3 or 4 again. So many people just jam a screw driver in there and start turning then they realize shit I'm going the wrong way and somehow end up making one adjuster turned more than the other cause 1 shoe to drag and over heat.

Mark

[Jeremy Soule]

Actually having the correct brake adjuster tool (rather than an old screwdriver)makes the job go quicker too, but I have no idea where to get them any more. Jim????

[SR Racing]

We take an old screw driver, bend the shank and shape the blade. Works ok. I am sure there are probably some generic adjuster tools still around at the auto stores.
But we have more old screwdrivers than money, so that is what we do.

[problemchild]

Perhaps people with perfectly arced shoe-drum combinations can get away without pumping, but I've never had a car that did not need pumping between every adjustment. The 2nd person helps alot.
Tiago, wait until you're as old as most FV drivers before you complain about the physical toll of FV brake adjustment
The one negative of our F1200 wheel package is removing wheels to adjust brakes. That is the only reason we remove the wheels though
FST brakes have no performance advantage and are much overated. Simply put, some people, like Tiago, just passionately hate the drum brake adjustment process. I don't understand the rationale from any cost, effort, performance, physical hardship perspectives. That is just the way it is. Some people like pumpkin pie and some hate it with passion. For those people, there is cherry cheesecake, disc brakes, or FST ..... or whining.

[hojo]

no need to remove the wheels, just cut out slots in the backing plate with a dremel and cover the slots up with tape when you are running.

or leave them open to get a similar "wheel pants" effect