Different needle bearings on front beam

[jstoezel]

Hi:

I've got 2 front beams and they seem to have different needle bearings, or different needle bearing housing (not sure this is the right term).

The first picture below shows that the needle bearing is flush with the housing. Second pictures shows that the bearing seems to be sunk... or the housing is different.
I don't have much experience with front beam, is something wrong with the second picture? Or is this a different type beam?

Thanks,
Jean


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[FVartist]

The second one just looks like the bearing got pushed in too much. Easy fix if you have a bearing puller. You can just leave it, but the turkey leg will be riding on a different area and the torque angle will be slightly different.

Bruce

[smsazzy]

If you don't have a bearing puller, go get yourself a washer that is about 1 3/4". (Not sure the exact size - 45 mm maybe, don't have access to one right now.) Grind a flat spot on the side of the washer so it is shaped like a D - you don't need to grind off much, just enough to make it fit. Then put a nice long bolt, about 4 inches long through the washer. Put something on the end you can hit, like a scrap of metal.

Slide the washer in the beam, using the flat side to make it fit. Turn it now so the washer is "laying" against the bearing and tap on the backside of the piece of metal to make a poor mans bearing puller.

PM or email me if you can't picture what I'm talking about.

[BLS]

Jean, I can't see any pictures for some reason. However, check this post for the "tool" you need.

http://www.formulavee.org/interchange/v ... f=3&t=4441

Be sure and read all the way to the end of my comments as I found a slight change required for the washer, explained in a later comment.

[jstoezel]

Hi:

Thanks for the replies, I am just about to go to the shop and build a "bearing puller". Thanks for pointing out the pictures, this helps.

I guess there is nothing to hold the bearing from stopping from sliding in? How did the bearing end up sliding in? Would it be because it was wrongly installed, or because it would have slid while driving?

Thanks,
Jean

[BLS]

Jean,

The end of the beam is machined and there is a step that becomes an ultimate stop. I suspect someone just pressed them in too far. It is a press fit and should not move unless the fit is poor.

Regards,
Barry

[jstoezel]

Hi Barry:

Thanks for the reply. Did you notice how the "bearing housing" is different? In the first picture (black beam) the housing is in one piece. In the second picture it seems to have been cut and another piece welded to extend it (grey beam). These 2 beams seem of different manufacture. For instance the welding of the shock tower is much tighter in the first picture (black beam). The welding on the other beam is "loose".
Is the grey beam an after market? Stamp on bearing say "Brazil"...

Jean

Jean,

The end of the beam is machined and there is a step that becomes an ultimate stop. I suspect someone just pressed them in too far. It is a press fit and should not move unless the fit is poor.

Regards,
Barry

[BLS]

Jean, I don't see any pictures. I'm not sure why. I have never seen a brazilian beam so cannot comment on it, other than I have been told that the brazilian made beams may not have been equipped with needle bearings. As I understand it, the brazilian beams came with an outer bushing made the same way as the inner bushings. Maybe this is the difference?

Regards,
Barry

[BLS]

Is anyone else unable to see the pics jean has posted? I don't see anything at all.

[jstoezel]

Hi Barry:

I can send you the pictures directly if you PM me your email address .

Jean

Is anyone else unable to see the pics jean has posted? I don't see anything at all.

[BLS]

Jean, don't know why but the pictures show up now.

I see what you are talking about and have no explanation. I do not think you can press the needle bearings in that far on the first beam as I believe they will bottom out just as they reach the outer surface. Apparently, your second beam is completely different. I would suspect it was originally made for the micarta outer bushing rather than needle bearings. If the needle bearings are a tight fit, I don't know why it couldn't be used provided the bearings are installed in the correct loaction. I think you should measure the distance between the outside of each beam and make sure they are the same and will meet the track width in the GCR.

Regards,
Barry

[BLS]

Jean,

I was out in the shop this morning and checked my beam. The original needle bearings are 21mm wide and the machined end of the beam has a depth of approximately 22mm, maybe 23. So, the most my needle bearing could get inset would be 1mm, maybe 2, much less than what your picture shows. Mine were installed flush with the end of the beam. If your needle bearings are 21mm wide then the machined end of the beam must have been made for something else like the micarta outer bushing (which I've never seen, but my exposure has been limited until recently) that was apparently supplied on brazilian made beams.

Hope this helps,
Barry

[hardingfv32-1]

Could be a bushing beam that was bored to accept the needle bearing.

Brian

[Bill_Bonow]

Think Brian is onto something. About 15 to 20 years ago there was a spell where you could only get bushing beams, but you could also get the needle bearings (just not installed on a beam). I modified one of out tools from work to bore out a bushing beam to accept the needle bearings. It controlled the bore diameter very well, but depth was visual. This looks like it could be one of those beams as I would face up the end of the tube (the lower photo has a nice flat tube end). The location (depth) of those needle bearings is not that critical. The important factor is diameter of the bearing surface and turkey leg.

[BLS]

For my own education, never having seen a bushing beam, did the bushings fit in the raw diameter of the beam tube? It would seem difficult to machine the end to take a needle bearing once the assembly is welded up (I know it could be done). I'm sure VW machined each tube before assembly which would be easy to do.

[jstoezel]

Hi Barry:

Thank you for looking into this.

The needle bearings installed in both beams are about 21mm wide. The outer dimensions of both beams are identical too. All 4 bearings in the grey beam are sunk to about the same depth. I think the conclusion is that the stops are deeper in the grey beam.

I guess I could try and build spacers that would fit between the bearings and the stops. Other possibility would be to try and source wider bearings - not sure if these are commonly used bearings. Would have to find some with the same inner/outer dimensions.

As for the spacers, I could use old micarta bushings I salvaged from a bent beam.

What's your recommendation?


Jean

Jean,

I was out in the shop this morning and checked my beam. The original needle bearings are 21mm wide and the machined end of the beam has a depth of approximately 22mm, maybe 23. So, the most my needle bearing could get inset would be 1mm, maybe 2, much less than what your picture shows. Mine were installed flush with the end of the beam. If your needle bearings are 21mm wide then the machined end of the beam must have been made for something else like the micarta outer bushing (which I've never seen, but my exposure has been limited until recently) that was apparently supplied on brazilian made beams.

Hope this helps,
Barry

[BLS]

Jean,

Given Brian's and Bill's response you might want to investigate further if this is an original micarta outer bushing beam. I don't think it matters as long as it is legal (and I assume it is). Since your needle bearings appear to be the standard type, I don't see any reason why you can't use them in this beam. You may not need spacers to stop the bearings in the right position if they are tight and don't move over time. Inner bushings are not large enough in diameter to use as spacers since they fit the inner, unturned part of the beam. You could certainly make some spacers but I am of the opinion that it may not be required. But, I have never done this and have zero experience with the beam you have. So, I'm guessing. Both the beams I have are original needle bearing types.

As far as wider bearings go, I don't think you'll find them. The original are available. Also, the trailing arms bearing surface are machined, I think, for the micarta bushing and needle bearing. With the bearings inset, the arm is riding partially on a smaller diameter surface such that you are using only a small part of the width of the needle bearing. I would try installing them flush with the outside or make spacers as you mention. Making spacers may be as much as the beam is worth however.

Someone with more experience may chime in. Mine is limited to the original and that is only from recently investigating this. Nothing has been tested yet as I'm still planning my return.

Good luck,
Barry

[hardingfv32-1]

1) You could use the bearing set Loctite and glue them in place.

2) Or install a set screw or bolt in the beam to act as a stop for the bearing.

Brian

[jstoezel]

Hi Brian:

Thanks for the reply.

2? sounds like a good idea...? How much pressure is exerted against the bearing (horizontally)? Would the screw deform the bearing at all if the bearing was to see any horizontal force? Sounds like a good idea... until you do it.

Jean

1) You could use the bearing set Loctite and glue them in place.

2) Or install a set screw or bolt in the beam to act as a stop for the bearing.

Brian

[cendiv37]

Put the screw or screws just inside the inner edge of the bearing. Pull out the bearing. Drill and tap a small hole for a buttonhead screw at a point a little more than half the screw diameter beyond where you want the inner end to stop. Clean up the metal chips and install the screw. Make sure the screw is not long enough to reach the trailing arm bearing surface. As you suggest, putting it on the bearing might do more harm than good.