Offset Bushings - Another question

[BLS]

If I decide to use the offset bushings I may just send the parts out to get it installed, but being cheap and since I like "do it yourself" I've been looking at just how I can mill the face of the carrier to match the offset bushing. More than one way to skin a cat of course, but why wouldn't brazing a couple of cutting bits to the inside face of a link pin work? Inserted into the bushing it would match the face cutting angle precisely and all I would need to do is rotate and cut until I have 360 deg of cut. This should be easy and perfectly match whatever the bushing angle is.

Second question, replacing some of the link pin shims with needle bearings. I see it mentioned in a couple threads. I'm not sure if it has been determined legal or not? I doubt it is worth much but it would be cheap and I don't see that it would hurt. What is the consensus? Do it or not?

Ok, a third question. I have disassembeled all the front end parts today. I have ball bearings that are in perfect condition and would prefer to reuse them. However, I need to pull the inner spindle race off the spindle to check the spindles and clean, etc. How can I do this without damaging the race? There is very little for a puller to grab behind the spacer. Any idea's?

Thanks,
Barry

[jpetillo]

Aside from using a puller, a little heat from a propane torch helped my race slide right off. No need to get it really hot.

[problemchild]

You pull (or push, hammer, whatever) on the spacer behind the bearing race. A screwdriver and hammer will work. The spacer is soft though and you want to minimize its damage as the seal rides on it.

[FV80]

Barry,
FWIW, I have never 'refaced' the dogbone to accommodate the offset bushings. In over 15 years, I have not seen ANY problem with just running it as it works out. The amount of space mismatch at the ends of the offset bushing is quite minimal and seems to cause no grief. I do relieve the turkey leg side a bit and I grind off the outside of the shims to reduce their diameter so that they fit nicely inside the carrier.

As for the needle bearings on the link pins, I don't know that anyone actually does that, but I don't think it would be worth the trouble. As long as the front end stays "free", you don't have much to gain there. The place I've seen the needle bearings is on the beam/turkey leg spacers.... but I don't really think that's worth the trouble either.

YMMV,
Steve, FV80

[hardingfv32-1]

How "free'" is the front suspension during a 1.5 G corner using plain thrust surfaces? Why do the shock manufactures make a big deal about shaft friction or striction?

Brian

[BLS]

Thanks for the help guys. Heat and pushing pulling on the spacer, I'll give that a try. I know I've done this before but it's been a while. Plus I don't know if I ever did it while planning to reuse the bearings. Last time I'm sure ball bearings were easy to get and cheap.

Steve, thanks. It's probably not much help to try and make it perfect. Looking at what I took apart it certainly can work OK with much less than perfection. I guess with so much bending/camber changes on the cars that the big things overwhelm the little things.

[FV80]

How "free'" is the front suspension during a 1.5 G corner using plain thrust surfaces? Why do the shock manufactures make a big deal about shaft friction or striction?

Brian

How free is it using "extreme measures" thrust surfaces (like needle bearings) under the same circumstances ??
Sorry - I don't have a CLUE - except that I seem to be able to run as fast as most anyone else - regardless of what they are running (in the turns, that is ... except on occasions when I run out of talent ... or AIR... or RUBBER <VBG>).

I haven't seen any shock manufacturers making a "big deal" out of shaft friction or 'stiction' - I think that's just HYPE to make you THINK they know more than you do (maybe that's why I don't run "at the front" so much any more... <G>). Of course, if your shaft is BENT, then stiction (I think of it as 'hysteresis') may begin to take on a signifcant impact ... but I think not so much in a VEE.

Steve, FV80

[FV80]

Thanks for the help guys. Heat and pushing pulling on the spacer, I'll give that a try. I know I've done this before but it's been a while. Plus I don't know if I ever did it while planning to reuse the bearings. Last time I'm sure ball bearings were easy to get and cheap....

Ball bearings NO LONGER CHEAP!! .
I used to use a series of cold chisels. Sharp/medium/fat behind the spacer (NOT the bearing race). Later on, I finally fabricated a slide hammer 'puller' using the groove in the spacer. An old CHEAP dilapidated slide hammer (from a REALLY CHEAP place) - some 3/16 steel plate ground to fit the grooves - welded inside a sleeve (cut in 2 lengthwise) of a short section of (formerly) bent beam at 90 degrees- with a solid round (almost equal to the 2 halves of 'groove' material) welded into the opposite end of the sleeve (only welded into ONE of the 'half sleeves') - with a hole in the end for the slide hammer part (does this make sense?). clamp the 2 halves of the puller onto the spacer groove, then put a simple hose clamp over it to hold it in place and "SLIDE HAMMER" away till it breaks loose. Simple, cheap and effective. I figure it cost me just about TWICE as much time to fabricate it as to cold chisel it off ONCE. And there is NO damage to anything doing it the slide hammer way.

Maybe I should fabricate a few and sell them.... for say,,, $50?? Who would buy one? I could make possibly as much as $0.25 per hour (not including materials) <g>.

Steve, FV80

[BLS]

"(does this make sense?)"

Steve, yes, I undestand it. I was looking a little closer at it this morning and there is a small amount of area to get a hold of on the spacer. I could make something like what you describe. I'll try a little heat and persuasion first. If that doesn't work I'll send you the fifty bucks so you can make one for me

Thanks,
Barry

[FV80]

"(does this make sense?)"

Steve, yes, I undestand it. I was looking a little closer at it this morning and there is a small amount of area to get a hold of on the spacer. I could make something like what you describe. I'll try a little heat and persuasion first. If that doesn't work I'll send you the fifty bucks so you can make one for me

Thanks,
Barry

I think I need to raise the price already
Steve, FV80

[BLS]

"I think I need to raise the price already"

Too late. After trying the heat and tap method I gave up. Too much risk to doing harm to the race. So, I started looking around at what I have on hand to fabricate a tool. I don't have any plate thin enough to fit the groove. So, I went to autozone, no bearing pullers that would work. Next, internet. Found an OTC bearing puller for $25 at Amazon. Prime gets me 2 day shipping for free. I already have the parts to put the force on the OTC part so that should do it.

Thanks again for the help!

[SR Racing]

but why wouldn't brazing a couple of cutting bits to the inside face of a link pin work? Inserted into the bushing it would match the face cutting angle precisely and all I would need to do is rotate and cut until I have 360 deg of cut. This should be easy and perfectly match whatever the bushing angle is.

We have a couple tools for this, but they are functionally not any different from what you have described and that would work fine.

I respectively disagree with Steve on the need to surface this face. I know some people don't do it. (and I didn't when I installed my first set of offset bushings). Now that we make the offset bushings I always surface the face when I install them and recommend that others do. It is clear from looking at it that the geometry will be better and probably less friction. How much, I don't know. But in racing every little bit counts.

There are people using the needle bearing shims at these points. I haven't, but again, I suppose every little bit helps. Same as the needle bearing spacers on the beam.

[FV80]

...I respectively disagree with Steve on the need to surface this face. ...

One of the reasons I did not do it was because I did not consider it LEGAL. Refacing that surface IMHO is NOT allowed by the rules - only 'relieving' the turkey leg side. I still feel that way, but obviously the rule can be interpreted in different ways . I don't disagree that it MIGHT be better to do it, but I have never had a noticable problem NOT doing it. I figure that, if the front end is free, I'm OK. We 'load' it with shocks anyway. If it NEEDED to be freer, I would use less shock.

Steve, FV80

[SR Racing]

because I did not consider it LEGAL. Refacing that surface IMHO is NOT allowed by the rules - only 'relieving' the turkey leg side. ...If it NEEDED to be freer, I would use less shock

Since bushings, bearings, spacers, hardware are free and as you say, you can relieve the turkey leg side to eliminate binds and I bet 90% of the drivers do it, I go with it's legal. It's WEAR.

As far as shock changes, not sure that metal friction or binds can be offset with a softer shock correctly. All that being said, I won't argue with your sucess on the track. So obviously the differences aren't that much. But gee Steve, think of how much faster you would be if you did resurface.

[cendiv37]

2011 GCR page 218: 9.1.1.C.3.A.9 reads

Caster, camber, and toe in/out settings are unrestricted.
Clearancing of carrier or trailing arm to eliminate binding is
permitted. Offset suspension bushings and alternate locating
spacers are permitted.

Steve,

Before clearancing was specifically allowed, maybe there was some reason not to consider clearancing the carriers to be legal. Since this rule was implemented (before my time??) I see no gray, mostly black and white. As we have been discussing (and sent an opinion to the CRB) whether it applies to king pin "clearancing" or not is potentially gray.

On using needle bearings as link pin "shims", I too believe they were being used before they were legal, but with the latest wording above, adding the "alternate locating spacers" piece, they are now legal. The idea that the spacers were just washers and were therefore fasteners and therefore "free" was always BS in my mind, but then I tend to think a little more literally than some of my competitors...

I often hear people say that "bearings" and "bushings" are "free" in FV. Can anyone find that in the FV rules for me? I didn't think so...

Generically, "fasteners" are free in FV, bearings and/or bushings are NOT free except as specifically allowed as in C.3.A.9 above and C.10.H (wheel bearings).

[BLS]

Jim, thanks for the cutter comment.
Bruce, thanks for the explanation on the rules.

It really is nice to be able to ask questions and get answers from the experts so quickly. Maybe if I had this resource about 30 years ago I would have been faster.

[SR Racing]

I often hear people say that "bearings" and "bushings" are "free" in FV. Can anyone find that in the FV rules for me? I didn't think so...

We were specifically talking about the link pin bushing area. Yes, "bearings and bushings" throughout the rest of the Vee is not legal unless called out. I have not seen anyone assume this. (Otherwise our engines would be significantly different internally. )

" Any fasteners (nuts, bolts, screws, etc)". IMHO would seem to allow for washers or spacers with the pin bearings installed.

[cendiv37]

Jim,

I realize we were discussing the front suspension bushings, but your comment was much more general. I HAVE heard many people say specifically that "in FV, bushings are free". I just wanted to make the point that this is not the case. In fact I've heard this said many times, often from people who claim to really know the rules.

As an ME, I do not consider thrust bushings or even thrust "washers" to be fasteners. I also do not consider the link pins to be fasteners, only the pinch bolts. As an analogy, since you are an EE, if I were to say that because the rules stated that capacitors were "free" would that mean all washers with grease between are capacitors and are therefore "free". I think you would be troubled by that.

In the case of the link pin spacers, the rules have since been changed to allow pretty much anything. But when this all started, the only spacers that could be changed (added in that case) were for the torsion arm, specifically to allow the use of anti-sway bars.

Of course this is just my opinion. Everyone has one as they say.

[SR Racing]

if I were to say that because the rules stated that capacitors were "free" would that mean all washers with grease between are capacitors and are therefore "free". :

No. Only because normal wheel grease is a crummy dialectric. But all capacitors on the FV ARE "free".

Yes, the rules can be tortured to death. I never really pressed many of them in our engines or cars, since I didn't want to get caught and most of those little tweaks were of little or no help.

[BLS]

Update on the spindle bearing. My "bearing pulling attachement", OTC part # 1122, arrived this afternoon. Since I already had the pull bar I only needed the bearing puller. I also see this referred to as a "bearing splitter". It worked like a charm. I would never have gotten it off without this. However, when I went to wipe the grease off the second spindle in prep for removing the race, the race came right off as I twisted it. It is the spindle as both right and left bearings will slide on this one. It does not look as thought the bearing ever spun on the spindle however, so I'm guessing it is OK.

The link pin bushings came right out with a little tapping. The kin pins will not. I'm afraid to hit them any harder for fear of damaging the carrier. They'll have to be pressed out. They do not appear to have any wear, nice and smooth. I do remember rebuilding those not that long before I stopped driving. Looking closely at the link pin bushings reminded me of my early, and ignorant, attempt at creating an offset bushing. As I recall, the rules did no allow for offset bushings, but you could use worn ones. These are new ones, "prematurely worn", and not very well done. It was a test as I recall to see how it would work. I thought I had replaced these but apparently not.

Both spindles appear OK. Once I get the kinpins out, spindle assembly cleaned up and painted I'll send them to be checked unless there is a homebrew crack checking method that the experts recommend. I'll probably just get the offset bushings installed as well if I have to send them out for checking. Maybe a local shop can do that. Any recommendations?

[SR Racing]

If you can't find someone local, we can rebuild your spindles with offset bushings and refacing, etc. If you do find someone local, make sure they know what there are doing and aren't just press owners. There is more to it than just pressing in a king pin. BTW, if your spindles to carrier don't have any play in them you may not need to do anything to them other than press in the new offset bushings and facing.

[BLS]

Thanks Jim. I meant local for pressing the kingpins out and checking for cracks, nothing more. Actually, I probably ought to leave them alone as the kingins are fine. I would like them apart to paint, but I suppose I could do that with them left together. That is the only reason I can see to remove the kingpins.