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SR Racing
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You asked for it.

Post by SR Racing »

Terry Abbott wrote: Maybe start a NEW thread about what the differences are between the two and NOT in the committee news section. :mrgreen:
This is about the differences between FV and FST pros and cons. (as asked.) If the mention of FST disturbs you just don't read it.

FST:
1. 1600 engine, counter balanced crank, W-110 Cam, aftermarket rods allowed (I-Beam, H-Beam with minumum weight) stock 34 Bocar carb, with restrictor plate, allowed dry sumped engine with 2 stage dry sump pump . (Minimum weights and other specs in rules.)
Pro: Price New under $4000.
Pro: Rebuild $ about the same as FV, but history indicates that logevity between rebuilds is better with FST. (Counterbalanced crank keeps bearings living longer and the better a/f mixture from the carb keeps the valves/head cleaner longer.
Pro: Engine oil temps 10 to 30 degrees cooler. Oil pressure consistant.
Pro: All parts readily available from many vendors and manufactures.
Con:. Due to cam lift we have seen more bent/broke push rods and rocker tip wear. But we have pretty much solved this with legal aftermarket stuff.
Con: Very few parts from the 1200 engine are transferable. FOr all practical purposes the FV engine would have to be sold.
Con: Dry sump tank plumbing can be problematic (space) in an existing FV, but we have found a way in all cars so far.

2. Long box transaxle only.
Pro: No changes from track to track
Con: Short box must be changed or sold, etc.

3. Front Beam is Ball Joint type. Shocks towers can be removed. Shocks can be mounted inboard or outboard.
Pro: Beams much lower price
Pro: Readily available multipoe vendors
Pro: Camber/Caster adjustments in 5 minutes.
Con: Conversion effort. Probable nose fiberglass work.

4. DIsc brakes 4 wheels
Pro: reliabilty and maintenance costs/time.
Pro: Ease of conversion
Pro: Safety. No spindle/drum breakage
Pro: No backing plates required
Con: Conversion cost.

5. Rack and Pinion steering allowed.
Pro:/ Con: No performance advantage, a bit lighter.

6. Car weight 1125 lbs. (Most all drivers will require ballast to make minimum weight.)

7. Hoosier 60A FF Spec tire.
Pro: Tires cheaper and last up to a full season.

8. Wheels (See rules for weights and dimensions.) The front tracking width dictates the offset.
Pro: Multiple types, (aluminum, steel), multiple vendors. (from $55 up)
Con: They're bigger :lol: The car MIGHT not fit your trailer if you have a small one.

The net: The FST is about 2 to 4 seconds a lap faster than a comparable Vee. Top speed probably 5 mph more than an FV at most tracks. Peak wheel HP ~72+ verses ~52+ Significant low end torque/HP improvement.

Yes, I am biased, but I put everthing in here I know of. For all practical purposes the only real con: with FST is the initial conversion costs/time. The BIGGEST positive by far is the new parts availabilty and EVERY component engine or otherwise is cheaper at thru multiple vendors.
Bill_Bonow
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Re: You asked for it.

Post by Bill_Bonow »

SR Racing wrote:Top speed probably 5 mph more than an FV at most tracks.
Jim has listed the class differences very well and with reasonable self proclaimed bias. I do think that the "most" portion of this one statement needs clarification for long tracks like Road America or Pocono. We use the same longbox and the rear tires are the same diameter (wider, yes, but the same height). An FST's power curve starts to drop like a rock after 6000 rpm while an FV at longer tracks seems to creep higher in rpm. Hearing of 7000 rpm (or higher) in a draft at tracks like Road America or Pocono in FV is not uncommon. At short tracks, FST clearly has top end over FV. However, I think we could see higher FV top speeds on the long straights of a track like RA. We've had only one opportunity for long track FV/FST comparison with Bruce Livermore about 4 or 5 years ago. We would all really like to see some high quality national grade FV's come join us at Road America in two weeks for the Kettle Moraine Regional. It's the last race at RA before the Runoffs and cheap testing time. Most of the FV's we see are regional caliber and not always a fair comparison. We've got a good shot at having 14 FST's racing at the Kettle, so come to RA for some Runoffs testing and let's do some top speed comparisons.
Bill Bonow
" I love Formula Vees, they're delicious!"
kkapelke4
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Re: You asked for it.

Post by kkapelke4 »

Sounds good!!

I really like this concept. I race FV (F1200 in canada). It is now my second year in this class. I have realized that it's the people who have been doing this for along time that have all the good parts and engines. And since you can't buy new 1200 parts you have what you have. Or you pay the people who have them a stupidly high price for a 45 year old part. I like the concept of FST in the end racing is racing but at least with fst you can buy new parts and an engine does not cost $5000-7000. GOOD ENGINE. (not the piece of #$%^ we have because we can't afford to buy one of those "SUPER STAR ENGINES")

I remember they tried doing the fst concept in Ontario Canada about 10 years ago but it never caught on mainly because the powers at be (engine builders) didn't except it. I totally understand why they don't want to. They have all the parts and you are forced to buy their stuff. With FST you can buy the parts off the shelf from any Air Cooled VW dealer. When we raced karts I was on the other side of the spectrum I didn't want to change to the "new engine" either because we had a few "MONSTERS".

Here in Canada every now and then I mention that maybe we should switch to 1600's. the powers at be, here always say "this is what we got". it's so funny watching them try to swallow that concept it's like they just ate a chili pepper and lemon at the same time.

There is one thing I hate above all in this world it's ignorance!

In the end it is time for a change the 1200 engine is a dying horse. We have to start thinking of the future of this "grassroots form of open wheel racing'. I know some of the 'fast guys" won't like this but you have to think of this as a new challenge. And give some people that don't have as much money a chance to be competitive.

I know the cost of converting to a fst would the cost of buying a good 1200 engine. This is not the point! the point is reliability, long term costs, fairness and equality to the great mass of people racing in the FV and FST community.

Thanks,

Kevin
F1200 #4
Rolling Stone
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Re: You asked for it.

Post by Rolling Stone »

Yes,it would be nice to see a change from the 1200 engine etc,just look at photos of Australian/Great Britain FVs,makes ours look 45 yrs old :mrgreen:I think with all the young now in F.1200 its time for a change,it would be pretty exciting to watch the development and "NEW" cars .
problemchild
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Re: You asked for it.

Post by problemchild »

Great rant!

I've told Kevin several times he needs to spend some money. I bought two very good engines in the last 18 monthes for myself and two very good engines for my customers. Hojo bought a decent engine recently. It is a buyer's market out there and deals to be had. When I put one of my engines up for sale recently, Kevin never called. I'm renting out my other engine to another F1200 driver for the balance of the season. I complain about the cost of FV racing constantly, but to say that you cannot buy quality engines and quality engine components is a myth. Kevin lives less than 500 miles away from Autowerks.

I've also told Kevin he needs tracktime. He was not at the last test day. The 5 fastest cars were! It was their choice to spend their resources on tracktime rather than 3 deg offset bushings.

FST may be a great choice for Kevin but any racing is the same. You need to maximize the resources available to you.
Greg Rice
"Happy 50th Birthday"
Rolling Stone
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Re: You asked for it.

Post by Rolling Stone »

:mrgreen: $4500 and $5500 for a F1200 engine to get to the front,Ill stay at the back quite happily,at my age its for fun and being able to race,also If I was younger and serious I wouldnt be in F1200 or FV I would be in FF or better,champion F1200 driver...who remembers or cares anyway after a while......TRY and remember what the CLASS is suppose to be all about...and IT AINT $5500 engines!!!!!!!!!!$20,000 cars etc,etc,etc.Wish I could go faster tho...but I love every minute of it,and thats what the class is all about :roll: ...$5500 and I could get a new drum set,do my studio up ummmmm?get expensive seats for Rolling Stones last concert next year and have at least $300 left for sex and drugs and Rock & Roll..I know my priorities
problemchild
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Re: You asked for it.

Post by problemchild »

Yes Frank.
I'm glad you're having fun and being supportive of F1200. But you're not trashing people that are trying to help you after ignoring their advice. That's why I offered to lend you a fuel cell, and I'm renting out an engine at cost, and why I agreed to lend Kevin one of my own engines last year. There is no one more passionate about keeping costs down In FV or FST than myself, but racing costs money, and the bars have been set for the different levels of success and participation. F1200 has been a leader in cost conservation with spec wheels/tires and smaller intake manifolds. Kevin will not find cheaper, closer car racing unless he wants to run bombers at his local oval track. He needs to take car of his business and should focus on learning to drive and growing into a successful F1200 competitor.
Happy Simcoe Day Weekend by the way!

BTW, my boss had me suspend some scheduled FF repairs so we can prep another F1200 for the rest of the season. The #67 Womer will be out for the next weekend hopefully.
Greg Rice
"Happy 50th Birthday"
Speedsport
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Re: You asked for it.

Post by Speedsport »

There is one thing I hate above all in this world it's ignorance!

In the end it is time for a change the 1200 engine is a dying horse. We have to start thinking of the future of this "grassroots form of open wheel racing'. I know some of the 'fast guys" won't like this but you have to think of this as a new challenge. And give some people that don't have as much money a chance to be competitive.

I know the cost of converting to a fst would the cost of buying a good 1200 engine. This is not the point! the point is reliability, long term costs, fairness and equality to the great mass of people racing in the FV and FST community.
Don't forget that FST may seem cheaper now because there are only a handfull of competitive cars in the country...if the FV community switches over to FST, that will change. When FV drivers switch to FST, their available "resources" will stay the same...if engines are cheaper, they'll put the resources elsewhere. It's like kind of like Greg said and it's like I've said before - to win takes using what resources you have, and using them to the best of your ability. I'm pretty sure that when the runoffs are made up of a field of 45 FSTs, it won't seem as cheap as it is now....
Mystique Racing
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Re: You asked for it.

Post by Mystique Racing »

Just a couple of additions to Jim's comments.

You can successfully run a wet sump 1600. The dry sump is not necessary. This makes the conversion from a FV to an FST much more attractive to me. Most FV's don't have room for the dry sump tank.

Rack and pinion steering is not necessary either. In fact, I would say that it is a disadvantage from a geometry perspective.

Pretty much every new part necessary to build a FST is available at the local bug shop. No searching junk yards to find backing plates etc, etc, etc.
Last edited by Mystique Racing on July 30th, 2011, 12:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Scott

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Mystique Racing
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Re: You asked for it.

Post by Mystique Racing »

Speedsport wrote:

Don't forget that FST may seem cheaper now because there are only a handfull of competitive cars in the country...if the FV community switches over to FST, that will change. When FV drivers switch to FST, their available "resources" will stay the same...if engines are cheaper, they'll put the resources elsewhere. It's like kind of like Greg said and it's like I've said before - to win takes using what resources you have, and using them to the best of your ability. I'm pretty sure that when the runoffs are made up of a field of 45 FSTs, it won't seem as cheap as it is now....
Exactly, Truer words have never been spoken.

FST is a nice little regional class and I prefer to keep it that way.
Scott

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Bill_Bonow
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Re: You asked for it.

Post by Bill_Bonow »

Mystique Racing wrote:Exactly, Truer words have never been spoken.

FST is a nice little regional class and I prefer to keep it that way.

+ 1

Please remember the topic of this thread.... Listing the differences between FV and FST. It was listed for those interested in conversion into the other class, not the wholesale conversion of FV into FST.

Racers will always spend as much as they can willingly afford. The class they race in makes little to no difference.

Hey Mike, why not come up to the Kettle for a little pre-Runoffs test/tune? I think it would be fun :mrgreen:
Bill Bonow
" I love Formula Vees, they're delicious!"
Rolling Stone
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Re: You asked for it.

Post by Rolling Stone »

And many thanx Greg for the offer of a fuel cell loaner,that was kind of you..any chance of lending me an engine? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: We have all said it many times,but its worth repeating,GREAT people in F1200 and FV 8)
SR Racing
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Re: You asked for it.

Post by SR Racing »

Speedsport wrote:
Don't forget that FST may seem cheaper now because there are only a handfull of competitive cars in the country...if the FV community switches over to FST, that will change. .
Mike, Certainly that is true to a large degree. But those resources will be more track time and events, etc. Due to the number of available parts for the 1600 and BJ Front beams, discs, etc. It will be another 30 yrs before there are any shortages or bidding wars for the best parts. :lol: And assuming the hard compound FF tire is used, they too will always be cheaper.
kkapelke4
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Re: You asked for it.

Post by kkapelke4 »

problemchild wrote:Great rant!

I've told Kevin several times he needs to spend some money. I bought two very good engines in the last 18 monthes for myself and two very good engines for my customers. Hojo bought a decent engine recently. It is a buyer's market out there and deals to be had. When I put one of my engines up for sale recently, Kevin never called. I'm renting out my other engine to another F1200 driver for the balance of the season. I complain about the cost of FV racing constantly, but to say that you cannot buy quality engines and quality engine components is a myth. Kevin lives less than 500 miles away from Autowerks.

I've also told Kevin he needs tracktime. He was not at the last test day. The 5 fastest cars were! It was their choice to spend their resources on tracktime rather than 3 deg offset bushings.

FST may be a great choice for Kevin but any racing is the same. You need to maximize the resources available to you.
The reason I didn't call is because we simply can't afford an engine for $5000 because we spent money on other engines that other FV Specialists told us to buy. We were not at the track practicing because again it is to expensive and cant get the time off of work. I know that some of the wealthy folk can take time off of work and do all this practicing, but regular people with 9-5 jobs don't have that luxury. I had a top f1200 driver take my car out in sunday practice at shannonville and his times were slower than mine. No offence to the person that took it out, i am just trying to prove my point about the practicing argument.
Besides a person that is new to racing needs alot of time behind the wheel. A person that has been racing since he was 6 years old and at the forefront of Canadian Karting for 20 years does not need more than a couple of weekends to get up to speed in his DRIVING in a car that has as much horsepower as my go kart.
We did not ignore any advice we just dont have the finances to upgrade our vehicle to those specs at this time.

I didn't say that the parts were not available, I said they are an outragous price.

Also I didn't spend my resources on 3deg offset bushings we got those for free and didnt run them.


Sorry SR Racing for this rant my initial post was to help support the FST. As usual it got blown out of context. This is my last post on this topic.
CitationFV21
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Re: You asked for it.

Post by CitationFV21 »

Rolling Stone wrote::mrgreen: $4500 and $5500 for a F1200 engine to get to the front,Ill stay at the back quite happily,at my age its for fun and being able to race,also If I was younger and serious I wouldn't be in F1200 or FV I would be in FF or better,champion F1200 driver...who remembers or cares anyway after a while......TRY and remember what the CLASS is suppose to be all about...and IT AINT $5500 engines!!!!!!!!!!$20,000 cars etc,etc,etc.Wish I could go faster tho...but I love every minute of it,and thats what the class is all about :roll: ..
The nice thing about FV is that you can buy a whole car for $6000 and over 4 years work that engine up to a $5000 engine, parts at a time.

FV can appeal to:
1. The hobbyist who wants to get into racing but on a "working man's" budget,
2. The hot shot passing through on his way to a faster class
3. The retired professional who is looking for something low key
4. The FV lifer who just enjoys the competition and the camaraderie.

A "new" FV of either type that costs $20,000 is about right, when compared to a $30,000 new F5 or a (gulp) $60,000 FF.
Short of Karts, FV is the most inexpensive form of road racing.

We need a progressive entry system - why should a FV guy pay the same entry fee as a FA or GT1 guy? (socialist key off)

The problem I see with FST is that anything new/different costs more that what I have. So there needs to be a commitment and an investment.

To get back to the thread - anything that increases the cost is contrary to the FST class. So I don't like the dry sump. And I still think a street radial might be a better choice than a hard slick, but I do understand the sizing and quality issues. Everyone wants to go faster. The secret is to have a balanced car, acceleration,handling and brakes. Not having driver a FST I will respect others' comment, but I would guess it still has too much handling vs acceleration for what I feel is a proper balance. (Note a regular FV has no acceleration vs handling so is not really in balance either)

ChrisZ
Rolling Stone wrote:$5500 and I could get a new drum set,do my studio up ummmmm?get expensive seats for Rolling Stones last concert next year and have at least $300 left for sex and drugs and Rock & Roll..I know my priorities
PS - You have the wrong priorities - you can't have your cake and eat it too.... :cry:
jpetillo
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Re: You asked for it.

Post by jpetillo »

Why is it when folks talk about prices in FV in comparison with FST, the FV prices are always so escalated? I know that people do pay $4500-5500 or more for an engine, but for Regionals, that seems like the exception. I payed much less - closer to half that. I remember not that long ago someone talking about their $2000 shocks (I forget whether it was front or rear shocks). That was an eye-opener to me. Again, some pay that, but most don't. Maybe I've been shopping at the wrong places for FV engines & cars, but I agree with Chris about the $6000 complete car, and that car can be competitive regionally, but probably not on the national level. In the Northeast, where we have usually large fields, you do not need to have a $4500-5500 engine to run up front or win. Again, like Chris said, you can work your way up to that $5K engine if you feel you need to over the years.
Mystique Racing
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Re: You asked for it.

Post by Mystique Racing »

I have built two FST engines which both cost north of $5K I don't think there is much difference in the initial cost of a good FV engine compared to a good FST engine. I think the difference will be in the longevity and the rebuild cost, the FST engine should have a slight advantage here.
To get back to the thread - anything that increases the cost is contrary to the FST class. So I don't like the dry sump.
Don't need the dry sump for FST, it is optional.
and I still think a street radial might be a better choice than a hard slick, but I do understand the sizing and quality issues.
Go ask the spec racer ford guys how many heat cycles their DOT Yokohama's, or more currently, Goodyear's will last ......... maybe 7-10. The Hoosier or American racer slicks are good for over double that and cost 25% less per set.
Scott

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Rolling Stone
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Re: You asked for it.

Post by Rolling Stone »

Citation FV21...but I do have my cake and eat it too...I have my F1200 and my drums etc,etc,If I spent $5000 on engines I wouldnt,its called balance :shock:
jstoezel
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Re: You asked for it.

Post by jstoezel »

Mystique Racing wrote: Go ask the spec racer ford guys how many heat cycles their DOT Yokohama's, or more currently, Goodyear's will last ......... maybe 7-10. The Hoosier or American racer slicks are good for over double that and cost 25% less per set.
In the end though if you run street tires you will not need an extra set of rain tires and rims, and this is quite a bit of money saved.
We run a spec street tire in FV WCMA (they do the same in F1200), they are cheap, last a full season. We buy 6 each so we have spares in the dry and 2 better ones (for the front) in the rain. People may buy a new set every race week end but we just don't do this at the club level, where cost is paramount. Once shipped from the US to Canada it costs about $110 to $120 each depending on the change.
Front and rear are the same size, which allows rotating them around, and you dont need front and rear specific spares.

In terms of performance, the Azenis are great. And the 195 width fits the proportions of a vee, I believe.
I just sold my set from last year to a road racer in a sedan class (Honda civic). The vees don't use the tires much. So the overall price per tire is probably closer to $70 to $80 if you sell at the end of the season.

One drawback is the limited choice of tires in 14".

If we were to align with whatever happens in SCCA (since it seems our association here tries to match SCCA when it seems to make sense to do so) I can see that the consensus would most likely to keep the street tires, we already differ in that sense anyways.

Jean
Last edited by jstoezel on July 31st, 2011, 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jean-Sebastien Stoezel
WCMA FV #0
SR Racing
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Re: You asked for it.

Post by SR Racing »

Mystique Racing wrote:I have built two FST engines which both cost north of $5K I don't think there is much difference in the initial cost of a good FV engine compared to a good FST engine. I think the difference will be in the longevity and the rebuild cost, the FST engine should have a slight advantage here..
:shock: Scott, Every part in an FST engine (long bock) is the same or less than an FV would be (Heads are signifcantly cheaper). A good manifold and carb for an FV will cost 2 to 3 times the cast of an FST. We build and sell an FST ready to run, dynoed tuned engine for well under that with the maximum upgraded components (Scat forrged internals, H-Beam rods, etc. all new parts. including the modified carb)

I am not sure how you came to that price. How did you compute labor? Rotating assm balance, machine work, (no piston/cylinder cutting required), cut the build time by 30% or more on an FST. The top drivers/cars in our series all have under $4000 RETAIL turnkey engines. We could not build a good FV National today for near that price. At best, we have sold a few refreshed decent 1200's for $4000. The last "new" FV engine we sold was over $5000. (Actually at this point when a customer calls about an FV engine we always recommend he buy a used "National" and have it refreshed. Typically the total can be under $4000.

Rebuilds are just about exactly the same price, other than the fact that an FST rebuild should last longer. (and if it does need parts, most all are cheaper.)

I would agree that in the whole scheme of things TODAY, the engine price differences aren't a significant issue, if you shop around hard and find some FV pieces at bargain rates.
(And yep, if the 1600 were to catch on, we would have builders selling their new "hot Stage 2 or Stage 3, etc' engines for higher prices. And many people would buy them. Typically the guys who are already the fastest anyways. And the rest of the field would then think they need them too. We have dyno'ed (engine and chassis) many of those "hot" engines. There haven't been any HP improvements in 20 years comparing everything. We would see the same in FST. It's buyer beware.)

One interesting thing that Butch Deer brought up at the run-offs meeting a couple years ago. Lets say that the ecoomy improved and through some wild advertising scheme FV took off into it's heyday and 10/20 people wanted to buy new cars and engines. Who coud produce the parts to build those cars? In FST you could get 100 sets of NEW parts (and spares) (sans trans) with a single phone call in a couple days. Not a likely scenerio, but a point of interest.

But availabilty (and $) are the things FV should be looking at for the future.
Last edited by SR Racing on July 31st, 2011, 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mystique Racing
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Re: You asked for it.

Post by Mystique Racing »

Jean,

I am not familiar with the Canadian rules but it sounds like you have a good tire rule. BTW, it basically never rains here in California during the racing season so most of us don't have rain tires.

Jim,

If I buy all of the parts necessary ( at retail prices) to build a FST motor it ends up being around $3500.00 Then labor to assemble the motor, flow testing all of the parts, dyno testing the motor, etc, etc, it will end up over $5K every time. Of course I am also trying to build, what you might call, a "Hot" stage 5 type of motor. :lol: With that being said I agree that a national Vee motor will cost even more.
Scott

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CitationFV21
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Re: You asked for it.

Post by CitationFV21 »

Mystique Racing wrote: Go ask the spec racer ford guys how many heat cycles their DOT Yokohama's, or more currently, Goodyear's will last ......... maybe 7-10. The Hoosier or American racer slicks are good for over double that and cost 25% less per set.
[Edit Note - see someone has also replied to this]

But EMRA and the Canadian Group got over 3 years/seasons on a set of true street tires - not race tires with DOT stamped on them.... In the Skip Barber Race Series in the 80's we would run 40 or 50 heat cycles with no drop off in performance - again, a street tire just shaved.

And we would lose a little handling, but as long as everyone was equal....

ChrisZ
fvracer27
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Re: You asked for it.

Post by fvracer27 »

jpetillo wrote:Why is it when folks talk about prices in FV in comparison with FST, the FV prices are always so escalated? I know that people do pay $4500-5500 or more for an engine, but for Regionals, that seems like the exception. I payed much less - closer to half that. I remember not that long ago someone talking about their $2000 shocks (I forget whether it was front or rear shocks). That was an eye-opener to me. Again, some pay that, but most don't. Maybe I've been shopping at the wrong places for FV engines & cars, but I agree with Chris about the $6000 complete car, and that car can be competitive regionally, but probably not on the national level. In the Northeast, where we have usually large fields, you do not need to have a $4500-5500 engine to run up front or win. Again, like Chris said, you can work your way up to that $5K engine if you feel you need to over the years.
Exactly the way I see it

It cost me less to run a FV than it did to race a 125cc Shifter kart 8 years ago. "regional level"

Mark
Mark Filip
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Terry Abbott
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Re: You asked for it.

Post by Terry Abbott »

Nice job Jim..... :lol:
Terry Abbott
2- Vector FV's
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