Transaxle rebuilds..

tiagosantos
Posts: 389
Joined: June 20th, 2010, 12:10 am

Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by tiagosantos »

So I read this a while ago and was always curious to try the test he mentions:

http://www.2belangers.net/vvr/speed/speed20.html

Well, since my engine is out, I finally gave it a spin. In both 3rd and 4th, I'm lucky to get a full revolution out of the wheels.. I'm not the strongest dude out there, but I'm either doing something wrong, the text was optimistic, or my tranny could do with a bit of work!

Any thoughts? It is an unknown (to me) shortbox, I don't think it's been freshened up in 5 or 6 years.
FV80
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Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by FV80 »

Tiago,
I haven't tried that in a while, but I used to get a bit more than 2 revs. If you are "about one", then I do think you have issues - though they might be in the spider gear mechanism (or even the brakes) rather than the gearbox internals. I think everyone should, at a minimum, take the axle tubes off once a year to check the axle paddles, fulcrum plates and side gears. Those beasties can cost you a BUNCH of HP and it happens fairly often with the camber that we run in the rear.... A quick chk at the track for big problems is to spin one wheel and make sure the opposite side spins in the opposite direction. If they both spin the same way .... you have essentially a locked diff .. and that's NOT good in FV (paddles/fulcrum plates/side gears all welded together from friction).

Steve, FV80
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
tiagosantos
Posts: 389
Joined: June 20th, 2010, 12:10 am

Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by tiagosantos »

Thanks Steve.. Well, it's not the brakes, they're backed way off and if I spin one wheel instead of both, it spins 'freely'. It does spin the other wheel backwards, so I guess the diff is working properly.

I'm afraid pulling the axle tubes wouldn't do me much good, as I have no idea what it should look or behave like hehe.. That might be a nice winter learning project!
FV80
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Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by FV80 »

Tiago,
It'll be OBVIOUS if there are issues in the side gear/fulcrum plate area. They are separate pieces - several actually. Once they start swapping metal, they 'STICK' together and it's difficult, if not impossible, to take them apart. I have had to drop a couple of entire assemblies (axle, side gear, fulcrum plates) into the garbage as a unit - impossible to separate.

In almost all cases, you will find "some" damage in there. Sometimes you can sand, or file, it out. Most of the time, you take both sides apart and SWAP the axles side to side. The loaded (forward) half of the axle paddle will then be on the opposite side and you'll be working on "good metal" again (you can only do this ONCE <G>). Of course, you generally still have to replace both fulcrum plates, and often the side gear, depending on how bad it is.

You pull the wheel end stuff off - undo the nuts on the bell covers - tap the axle out of the outer axle tube bearing (pull on the tube while you do that so you don't drive it into the side gear) and the axle tube/boot assembly comes off. Undo the BIG snap ring inside the center spider carrier and the 'side gear/fulcrum plate/axle' set should slide out (more or less) freely. Sometimes there will be a ridge just inside the snap ring that hangs the side gear and you have to file it off or just 'muscle' it by. Once you have the axle in hand, the individual pieces should fall apart freely as well. If they don't, you have a problem!

On reassembly, put GREASE on the fulcrum plates and axle to hold everything in place during reassembly .. .and make CERTAIN that the snap ring gets *LOCKED* back into place. Don't pull on the axle, lest the fulcrum plates fall back behind the axle paddle - and you have to take it apart again to get them back in place. On DISassembly, note the number of 'bell gaskets' in place and put the same number back .. or adjust as necessary. You want no "free play" of the axle tube against the bell after the nuts are in place and torqued - a light loading is OK and a SMALL amount of free play is OK, but anything more than you can "just feel" is too much. (Don't forget to put the daisy packing flower back in there! - and the axle spacer just inside the outer bearing... and the O'Rings... and ... etc, etc. <G>)

This *IS* a classic location for transaxle problems - especially if the car has been in a shunt or "up in the air" - so if you think you're "low on power" this is a prime spot to check if you have the time. Any sort of side impact on a rear wheel can drive the axle into the side gear and split it causing WAY BIG drag and *HEAT* generation - quickly leading to fulcrum plate/axle/side gear WELDING. You'll need a GOOD, BIG set of snap ring pliers (straight) to get the snap ring out and back in, so have that before you start.... if you want to tackle it <g>.
FYI - voice of experience :oops:
Steve, FV80
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
tiagosantos
Posts: 389
Joined: June 20th, 2010, 12:10 am

Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by tiagosantos »

Hmm... I'm tempted to check it out, you make it sound.. Well, not easy, but doable.. :)
BLS
Posts: 441
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 7:52 pm

Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by BLS »

Steve, I think I'm going to have to start a "Steve repair and troubleshooting" file with your stuff saved. I'm sure everyone appreciates the very good descriptions you take the time to give. I know I do even when it's someone else that is having the problem. I'm learning a lot just reading all the tips.

Thanks!

I'm in India right now so FV work is proceeding slowly. I hope to be able to tackle it in a big way starting in Oct.
Barry
Old Zink FV,
'87 Citation
billinstuart
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Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by billinstuart »

Anytime you have friction you have heat. The cooler the transaxle runs, the less friction you have inside generating heat. Of course airflow over the box cools it, but generally you'll find the coolest transaxles have the least friction.
hardingfv32-1
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Joined: December 1st, 2006, 8:01 pm

Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

This is false. Heat is product of friction. Heat does effect clearances and oil viscosity. Assuming the same oil, a cooler transmission means a higher viscosity and MORE friction.

Brian
hardingfv32-1
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Joined: December 1st, 2006, 8:01 pm

Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

To other common transmission trouble areas:

1) The syncro collar on 3rd or 4th has slipped of a little and reduced the end play at the gear set.

2) The differential side gear spider gear's outer diameter has been cracked by the axle paddle (during off roading). This increases its OD and causes it to drag in the center differential housing.

Brian
tiagosantos
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Joined: June 20th, 2010, 12:10 am

Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by tiagosantos »

So number 2) could also be checked by removing the axle tubes, right?

I know you guys have done this a thousand times and it might be hard to stay objective, but what's a realistic estimate of how long it should take to open it up and put it back together? If you were a noob, that is.. And of course not counting the time to fix anything that might be messed up :)
hardingfv32-1
Posts: 1014
Joined: December 1st, 2006, 8:01 pm

Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

Yes, 2) is done after axle removal.

It is much easier to remove the snap ring in the differential side gear spider gear with the proper pliers. Needle noose pliers can be notched if you want.

Maybe 2 hrs a side if you consider cleanup before reinstallation.

Brian
tiagosantos
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Joined: June 20th, 2010, 12:10 am

Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by tiagosantos »

Yeah if I try to do this, I'll splurge on some decent circlip pliers.. Not worth the frustration of messing about with the wrong tools at this stage of my career haha. I used to dread removing the little brake shoe 'cups' that hold the spring/pin in place, until I bought the $5 tool that makes it a 100 times easier!

How big do they need to be though? Will something like this work?

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/7-1-2-i ... ier/944336
Dietmar
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Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by Dietmar »

Tiago:
From the description, those pliers described are much too small.

Try KD tools # 3152. They might work. They are big enough.
If you can find the KD 1455, I KNOW they work.

Several things:
once the drum is removed, leave the brake shoes on the backing plate. Remove the axle bearing cover plate and the backing plate should slide over the axle. If the axle tube retainer is NOT leaking at this time, I would mark its relationship to the side cover and reinstall in the same orientaion. Remove only one of the boot clamps- small one is fine. Drain some of the gear oil out - makes less of a mess. This will save some time.
When reinstalling- in addition to what others have already told you, I would install the axle TUBE WITHOUT the axle to get my "play" set. Although some have said count the shims, that might not work as the shims can be a different thickness. So guess at first, install and check for the TUBE play in and out. Also be sure the TUBE is free to move up and down. Once the shim stack is determined, install the axle, then the tube. Helps too if the axle spade is vertical when installing. Keeps the fulcrum plates from falling under.

If you run into problems, help is just a phone call away.

Hope this helps
Dietmar
http://www.quixoteracing.com
tiagosantos
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Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by tiagosantos »

Thanks Dietmar :)

Looks like the 1455 has been discontinued and the 3152 is, for whatever reason, incredibly overpriced locally. All the other models seem comparably priced to the states, but that one is over twice as much. I think I found something else that'll work at a different shop, so I'll compare them to the ones you mentioned and figure it out!

Thanks for the tips everyone, much appreciated. I don't think I'd normally try to do something like this, but after taking the front suspension apart on Saturday and putting it back together - and at least apparently making it work better! - I feel a bit more confident that I can follow directions. It gave me a much needed confidence boost, so if I can repeat that with the transaxle, I'll be pretty happy for a while.
FV80
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Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by FV80 »

When Dietmar says "shims", I believe he means "GASKETS". The paper gaskets between the bell and the side plate (make sure you have some on hand before you take it apart!). Generally will take 2 or 3, but adjust as necessary to get "about" NO play and 'not much' drag when you move it by hand with the bell nuts tight. I generally wipe my gaskets with heavy wheel bearing grease to allow easier removal without destroying the gaskets next time (at least SOME times it doesn't destroy them <G>).

That brings up another issue. When you have the axle tube in hand, always INSPECT the bell end for bending/stretching. Any 'air travel' or suspension impact can cause the bell to PULL away from the side plate somewhat. I have had some moderate success using various assorted objects around the shop in REforming the bell face to its original shape (or pretty close). If the bell is deformed, it will likely LEAK despite copious amounts of RTV. In any case, you should inspect the bell carefully, and reassemble it with the BEST part of the bell toward the bottom to avoid leaks. Also - an easy way to make sure the bell end isn't offset too badly is to simply stand it on the bell on a flat floor and LOOK at it. If the bell is bent, the axle will stand at some odd angle off the floor instead of vertical. I know of NO way to straighten that sort of damage (although I can almost envision a tool to do so, I don't have the time to build one <G>) - just replace it if it's bent enough that you can tell it easily.

Another thing - on MOST side plates, you'll find the bell face (the part that mates with the axle tube bell via the packing flower) is damaged at some point from the axle hitting it in an offroad excursion. In almost all of those cases, the side plate is STILL OK. Just sand it smooth and remove any broken chunks and it should continue to serve its purpose just fine. I'd say up to about 3/4" of 'crash damage' is OK - beyond that YMMV.

ONE MORE THING... if you assemble the axle tube and you have a *LOT* of end play... look around on the floor for the packing flower. I've left them out on more than one occasion :oops: .

Brian's estimate of about 2 hours is reasonable to take apart and reassemble 1 side - but remember you have to remove the camber limiter ... and take the spring/shock off FIRST <g>. For your first time, I'd make sure I had a day or 2 in hand before I started - just in case you run into trouble.

Also - I bought a heavy duty snap ring tool from Harbor Freight that works perfectly. Unfortunately, I cannot find it in their catalog now. From the description I would say that these (http://www.harborfreight.com/10-inch-ci ... 97406.html) would work, but no guarantees. Mine are straight internal - no removable tips but probably about that size.

Steve, FV80
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
cendiv37
Posts: 386
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 7:29 pm

Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by cendiv37 »

Tiago,

Another source for a snap ring pliers is McMaster Carr

Either of these look like they should work: 5449A93 or 57805A361
They are a bit under $25 each.

You'll be happiest with a good quality, straight tip, internal pliers for a 2" - 3 " snap ring. That's pretty big. I'm guessing 2-1/2" to 2-3/4" OD on the actual VW ring.

If you can find an equivalent KD or similar locally, that's like those listed above you'll be good to go.

You could get a changeable tip pliers, but that would not be my preference.
Bruce
cendiv37
tiagosantos
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Joined: June 20th, 2010, 12:10 am

Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by tiagosantos »

Steve - yeah I think that's similar to the set I'm looking at.. Of course, they're about $40 bucks here :roll:

McMaster Carr has unfortunately caught up to me and they won't ship me any new orders.. They will only ship internationally to registered businesses - I ordered a few times and shipped to my work address, but they eventually called and asked why I was paying with my personal credit card :D Little buggers..
problemchild
Posts: 901
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 9:34 am

Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by problemchild »

I use an old pair of needle-nose pliers with the ends ground to fit. Works great. Unfortunately, went through plenty of snap-ring pliers and aggravation for 20 yrs before deciding to make my own. Priceless!
Greg Rice
"Happy 50th Birthday"
hardingfv32-1
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Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

"I don't think I'd normally try to do something like this"

This is really basic stuff for a thrifty FV racer. If you ever have a transmission worked on, chances are you will have the axles off for shipping. Very soon you will be damaging your first axle tube retainer ring and maybe the axle tube in an off-road excursion. Theses are skills are pretty much the minimum required to keep your car serviced correctly on your own.

The posts remind me of all the thinks to do and look for that you should carefully work though. Better allocated a good day and a few beers to learn it right, you WILL be doing it again!

Brian
tiagosantos
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Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by tiagosantos »

Brian - I should have said '2 weeks before a race weekend' :) I would normally wait until the winter so if I messed up, I would have plenty of time to make it right hehe..
FV80
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Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by FV80 »

Brian makes a VERY good point. It is inevitable that you will someday end up doing this (or NEEDING to do this) at the track (if you carry a spare axle and tube .. which you SHOULD do). Having done it before and NOT having to go through the learning process (as much, anyway) at the track will be valuable.

It's not a "tough" job - just start at the beginning, pay attention to detail and put it back together the way it came apart (except for BAD parts <G>). Thanks to Dietmar for pointing out that the backing plate could come off with the brake system (including the brake LINE) fully intact. I'm pretty sure, the first 3 or 4 times I changed a tube, I took the brake line loose - adding the time and effort to disconnect, reconnect and then bleed the brake system to the job when it was not needed.

Don't forget to inspect your rear DRUMS a couple of times per weekend too. Look VERY carefully at the casting hole (not the one used to adjust the brakes - the other one) if there is one.

Steve, FV80
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
tiagosantos
Posts: 389
Joined: June 20th, 2010, 12:10 am

Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by tiagosantos »

Speaking of spare axles and tubes.. I'm hoping NOT to have to buy them*** (did I just jinx myself..?) but what's the deal with the axle tubes? Is there a complete set that fits our cars (are they all the same?) including the cast piece at the wheel end? Or does that cast piece come off and you just cut a new axle tube to size and press it on the new tube?

***I'm sure I'll eventually end up buying spares, but I'm trying to count beans to make one more race this season, so spares aren't essential right now.. If I bend them, I'll get them fixed over the winter
CitationFV21
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Joined: July 6th, 2006, 10:49 pm

Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by CitationFV21 »

What type and how much oil do you have in your tranny?

ChrisZ
tiagosantos
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Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by tiagosantos »

20W50 synthetic motorcycle oil, filled to an inch or so below the bottom of the hole..
smsazzy
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Re: Transaxle rebuilds..

Post by smsazzy »

tiagosantos wrote:20W50 synthetic motorcycle oil, filled to an inch or so below the bottom of the hole..
Tiago,
You are in Canada. It is not filled to an inch below the hole. It is 25mm below. :-)
Stephen Saslow
FV 09 NWR
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