Valve keepers pictures

[jstoezel]

Hi:

Could somebody post pictures of what healthy valve keepers and valve retainers (installed) should look like? This would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Jean

[FV80]

Jean,
I don't have a picture for you, but if you go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zya3rvTRyjg there is a youtube video of pictures a guy took during a rebuild. At about 1:25 into the 2 min video, there is a nice closeup of one of the assembled heads. His is a later model, so the rocker arm adjuster screw 'ends' are different, but you can see the valves and retainers quite clearly. The end of the valve should be "pretty close" to matching up with the face of the retainer. If the valve end is noticeably recessed into the retainer you have a problem. 99.99% of the time, it's the retainer - I've never seen a keeper 'fail' (get LOST, maybe, but not FAIL<G>) and I've also never seen the grooves in a valve 'get sloppy' - the HEAD might break off, but not any part of the stem - retainers OTOH, often (sometimes?) stretch inside causing loss of "holding power" for the valve.
It is also a "nearly impossible" situation that *ALL* of your retainers should fail at the same time. Look for any one or two that look way different from the others. HOWEVER, I do recall a certain someone that found nearly ALL of his retainers failing at the same time. Not sure, but likely they were all replaced at the same time with inferior retainers...
YMMV,
Steve, FV80

[jstoezel]

Hi Steve:

Thank you for the link and the explanation. Sent you a picture of one of the retainer and the keepers. Like you said looks like I have a problem.

JS

[brian]

Steve's right on in his explanations. I really check the spring side of the retainers to look for splits and cracks. around the stem hole. I have plenty of spares around if anyone needs some. The keepers themselves are generally bulletproof. Make sure they don't butt up against one another when placed on the valve. If the retainers seat against each other, they'll be sloppy on the valve and will damage the retainer rings on the valve. If the valve won't slip through the guide, chances are these grooves are beat up and will have to be filed before removing the valve. Don't force a valve through the guide, you'll end up with a leaker or blowby.

[hardingfv32-1]

I think the keepers halves DO butt up against each other. This provide clearance to allow the valves to rotate. The rotation being caused by the offset contact of the valve adjuster on the valve stem.

Brian

[brian]

I understand that the spring also generates valve rotation. If anyone would like to see this action, go to you tube and research spintron or valve float. On some videos you will see the entire assy rotate. Or, go here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_REQ1PUM ... re=related

[jstoezel]

Hi:

Apparently there is a 2 piece tool that allows compressing the valve springs, to replace the retainers without removing the heads. One part bolts where the rocker arms shaft goes, the other part is a lever that compresses the valve springs. Schley seems to have a $200 model... I'm looking for the cheapest tool I can get.

Jean

[FV80]

Jean,
Go to your local hardware store (or HomeDepot equivalent) and buy a 3 foot piece of 3/16" x 1.5" flat steel. Cut or grind a 'V' (or 'U' if you are industrious) in one end - about 1" deep. Hold it up to the head with the V on a valve spring and mark the spot where you need to drill a 3/8" hole for the closest rocker shaft bolt so that the V can clear the valve stem under compression. Clamp the steel in a vice and bend it at a point about an inch past the spot for the hole away from the V - bend it about 10 degrees or so. Then drill the hole. Place the hole over the rocker shaft bolt and run a nut up on it loosely. After peening the valve spring (as I mentioned in my email), place the V over the valve spring and pull on the free end of the steel strip to compress the spring. It should be enough to compress the spring so that you can get to the keepers with a magnet. Depending on exactly what you end up with, it might work better if you put a small stack of washers or nuts beneath the steel before you put it on the rocker shaft. I'm doing this off the top of my head, so don't hold it against me if it needs "adjustment" - it's been some 25 years or so since I made mine. But you can't get much cheaper ... and it's kinda 'fun' to build your own tools ... sometimes.... when you have more time than money....

There is somewhat of an 'art' to this - keeping the spring under the steel 'pry bar' - holding it with one hand while fishing out (and back in) the keepers. It takes practice, but after you've done about 8 or so, you'll get the hang of it <g>. Of course, you will have to RETRAIN yourself the next time you need to do it <VBG>.

Oh... don't forget to pressurize the cylinder with air first so the valve will stay closed. (At least it's not likely to fall into the engine like a LOT of the overhead valve engines (I had that happen once to me when I accidentally knocked the quick disconnect off the air hose with the spring off - took me about 1.5 hours to fish that sucker back up into the valve guide through the spark plug hole ... using ALL KINDS of quickly fabricated "tools" <G>).

Steve, FV80

[hardingfv32-1]

"I understand that the spring also generates valve rotation. If anyone would like to see this action, go to you tube and research spintron or valve float. On some videos you will see the entire assy rotate."

I disagree. The video is very inconclusive. The first half does show some retainer motion, but the rotation varies and sometimes reverses. The second half of the video clearly shows no rotation of the retainer. In general, I do not see any movement of the spring helix shape.

IF the spring is rotating, why are we not using hardened valve spring seats/washers in the head valve seat pockets? And if we did, wouldn't these steel seats need to be locked to the head to prevent rotation?

Brian

[jstoezel]

Hi Steve:

Thank you for yet another great explanation. I'll make sure I follow the steps when I receive the new retainers next week.

Jean

Jean,
Go to your local hardware store (or HomeDepot equivalent) and buy a 3 foot piece of 3/16" x 1.5" flat steel. Cut or grind a 'V' (or 'U' if you are industrious) in one end - about 1" deep. Hold it up to the head with the V on a valve spring and mark the spot where you need to drill a 3/8" hole for the closest rocker shaft bolt so that the V can clear the valve stem under compression. Clamp the steel in a vice and bend it at a point about an inch past the spot for the hole away from the V - bend it about 10 degrees or so. Then drill the hole. Place the hole over the rocker shaft bolt and run a nut up on it loosely. After peening the valve spring (as I mentioned in my email), place the V over the valve spring and pull on the free end of the steel strip to compress the spring. It should be enough to compress the spring so that you can get to the keepers with a magnet. Depending on exactly what you end up with, it might work better if you put a small stack of washers or nuts beneath the steel before you put it on the rocker shaft. I'm doing this off the top of my head, so don't hold it against me if it needs "adjustment" - it's been some 25 years or so since I made mine. But you can't get much cheaper ... and it's kinda 'fun' to build your own tools ... sometimes.... when you have more time than money....

There is somewhat of an 'art' to this - keeping the spring under the steel 'pry bar' - holding it with one hand while fishing out (and back in) the keepers. It takes practice, but after you've done about 8 or so, you'll get the hang of it <g>. Of course, you will have to RETRAIN yourself the next time you need to do it <VBG>.

Oh... don't forget to pressurize the cylinder with air first so the valve will stay closed. (At least it's not likely to fall into the engine like a LOT of the overhead valve engines (I had that happen once to me when I accidentally knocked the quick disconnect off the air hose with the spring off - took me about 1.5 hours to fish that sucker back up into the valve guide through the spark plug hole ... using ALL KINDS of quickly fabricated "tools" <G>).

Steve, FV80

[brian]

Steve, nice explanation as usual. Jean, you mentioned that you have new retainers coming. Many after market retainers, like the Gene Berg ones I, use require compatible keepers. On the motorcycle forums I go on we have family tool kits to share. If someone would like to borrow a external spring kit, and be willing to turn it around in a short time, I would be willing to send you the tool. I might regret this but I'm a trusting fool.

Like many issues I don't understand, I rely on the words of experts. The folks on my engine forum say the keepers should have a gap. I have no basis to argue since I don't chew up valves any more.

[jstoezel]

My engine builder is sending keepers with the set of retainers. I have yet to receive the package.

Steve, nice explanation as usual. Jean, you mentioned that you have new retainers coming. Many after market retainers, like the Gene Berg ones I, use require compatible keepers. On the motorcycle forums I go on we have family tool kits to share. If someone would like to borrow a external spring kit, and be willing to turn it around in a short time, I would be willing to send you the tool. I might regret this but I'm a trusting fool.

Like many issues I don't understand, I rely on the words of experts. The folks on my engine forum say the keepers should have a gap. I have no basis to argue since I don't chew up valves any more.

[hardingfv32-1]

"Valve keeper grooves
It has always fascinated me that the same device, the gadget connecting the valve to the spring retainer, can be called a "key" and a "lock" and everybody still knows what you’re talking about.

There are almost as many different designs of keys and valve grooves as there are valve designers. On the intake or exhaust valve, there are single grooves, two grooves, three grooves, four grooves, flat bottom types, radiused grooves, "free valve" grooves, threads, pin holes and probably a lot I’ve never heard of. They all do pretty much the same thing but in different ways.

The three and four groove as well as the "free valve" types have been called "non-positive" rotators. That is because those key designs do not grip the valve stem directly because they butt against each other and are not holding onto the valve. So, when the valve is open, it is restricted from possibly rotating only by the line contact of the rocker pad on the tip."

Engine Valve Designs

By Ted Tunnecliffe

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article ... signs.aspx

Brian

[brian]

thanks Brian, that's a good article. I just love it when the experts don't agree. (not us , them). I've noticed that the valve grooves don't get so chewed up when I use the spaced keepers and I can tell by the wear the valves are still rotating. The exhaust valves seem to suffer the most probably due to the higher heat. But hell, what do I expect for under $10.

[hardingfv32-1]

I was hoping you might have some info on the subject. That is why I questioned your statements. Very little out there on the subject.

Brian