Bent Wheels

[Greg Davis]

Is there any way to straighten OEM wheels simply or does this require sending them out to a specialist? If they need to be farmed-out does anyone know a facility fairly close to NW PA?

[FV80]

Depends on just how bad it's bent. Bent edge flanges in small areas can be 'cold straightened' with 2 crescent wrenches. If it's into the ramp below that, SOME TIMES it's possible to "straighten" (read IMPROVE) it with judicious use of a (or more than one) ball peen hammer ... some times it takes a LARGE one. I have corrected some pretty serious side 'wallow' by putting one edge on a 2 x 4 and wailing away with a pretty good sized hammer. It also depends on how much runout you are willing to live with. In my experience, you can run just fine with a good bit more than you would think as long as it's side to side. If it's out of round, it's pretty much DONE. If it so bad, you can't seat a tire on it, it's DONE. Of course, if you do any 'repairs' be sure to inspect the wheel closely afterwards for cracks. It's also a good idea to inspect your wheels before every weekend for cracks. I haven't found many, but I have found a couple - usually near one of the lug holes.

The easiest way to tell how good it is short of mounting it on a hub is to roll it across a smooth floor. Follow that by laying it down (each side) on a smooth floor to see how good the rim matches the flat floor. Try a good one, then the bad one. Problems stick out rather obviously. Helps me to find where work needs to be done. It's mostly impossible to tell how good or bad one is unless you demount it (unless it's obviously toast!).

YMMV,
Steve, FV80

[Greg Davis]

Thanks for the input Steve. I bought five wheels from a junk yard in AZ only to find when I went to have them balanced that three of them were wobbling on the balancing machine. They didn't appear to be bent on casual observation and they had virtually no rust. The guy that tried to balance them told me that the old style tire machines pulled/pushed on the center of the wheel and he surmised because of the large openiing in the VW wheel that the face where the wheel bolts to the brake drum got bent. The edges of the rims all look in really good shape - so that is not an issue.

[FV80]

Greg,
Just FYI - there are very few people that can properly balance VW (wide 5) wheels any more. I have found that if the wheel doesn't wobble (badly) when rolled across a floor that it is FINE. I have also found that NOT "balancing" wheel/tire combos is generally better than having someone balance them. I would guess that at least 50% of the time that I've had tires balanced - they've had SERIOUS problems on the racetrack. In 95% of those cases, simply removing the balance weights has solved the problem. As a general rule, I do NOT have my tires balanced when mounted - at least until after I have scrubbed them in to be sure that they need it (NEVER - so far).

Steve, FV80

[Greg Davis]

Steve,
If as a rule you don't balance the tire/wheel combination, do you go thru a speed transition when you get a vibration, as is the case with most passenger cars? If I can get away without balancing costs it would save me much dollars & even more hassle...

[tiagosantos]

For reference - my two sets of slicks and my rains have not been balanced and I don't notice any unexpected vibrations..

Wouldn't the drum be a big influence in balancing too? I dunno, I thought about making the extra effort and having them balanced, but it doesn't seem to affect me at all. Maybe on faster tracks where you're at higher, constant speeds?

[FV80]

In my significant experience, I have had balance problems on a half dozen occasions. In all but one, I removed the weights from all four tires (that had been "professionally" balanced) and the problem disappeared. In the other case, one of the tires had not properly seated on the bead and I didn't catch it before I went out. Although I have 'wondered' if I should have balanced a set or 2 during the initial scrub in phase, the vibration went away after 3 or 4 laps and did not return. If there is any speed transition vibration, it's slight enough that I don't pay attention to it and it doesn't affect (hasn't affected) the car in any way.

Although MOST Of the front drums I've checked have been noticeably OUT of balance, IMHO that ob is way smaller than any generated by the wheel tire combination - the wheel tire is significantly heavier and much further from the rotational center. I have to admit that I've been surprised that the lack of balancing seems to have no effect, but I can't argue with the facts (as I see them <g>).

YMMV,
Steve, FV80

[brian]

A poor man's balancer can be made using one of your front spindles or a spare spindle and brake drum in a vise. Make sure the bearings are really free; mark the tire in question every 90 degrees with a crayon. (12,3,6, and 9 o clock) mount the wheel and tire firmly on the drum using ALL 5 of the lug nuts. Then orientate the wheel with the crayon marks in the relevant positions with one mark straight up. Then watch the tire, I use a rubber mallet and tap the h beam gently to reduce friction. If the tire moves, it will rotate the heavy area to the bottom. Rotate the tire in an opposite 90 degrees and see if the same sector goes to the bottom. If it does, place some weight on the opposite, or top side of the wheel. You can tape the weight on the inside temporarily. Now, rotate the tire 90 degrees either direction and see if it moves. If it moves, rotate the wheel in the opposite direction and see if it returns to the same spot. If the tire goes back with the original heavy spot going to 6 o clock you need more weight. If it continues to go to another position, say 3 or 9 o clock. you need to move the weight opposite of the direction the tire moves. If the heavy spot goes to 12 o clock you have used too much weight. A well balanced tire will hold still regardless of orientation. I scrounge used weights from a local tire company and reuse the tape on weights that I have. Always put your weights on the inside and mark the tire next to the weight with your crayon. Out of habit, I mark the tire next to the valve stem to assure the location of the tire if it's been removed or has lost air and has been debeaded. I find this approach really works track side. If I feel any vibration, I will test all 4 tires in the pits this way, especially if I have paid the local vendor to mount and balance. Some brands of tires will vibrate a while til they round out, but they'll balance out ok.

If anyone is interested, I have a spare Chinese bubble balancer that I used to carry to the track and am willing to sell. PM me and we can discuss.

[Dietmar]

I have always balanced my own tires as Brian described EXCEPT, I do it on the car ( works front only). Good time to repack the grease in the bearings too. Just loosen the jamb nut (s) and the tire will rotate to the heaviest spot on the bottom. After balancing, I also mark the drum as to where the tire sat when balanced and replace it to the same location each time. Rears do not seem to be affected by "some" imbalance.

Greg:

As for bending rims because of the large center- I use a 5ft bar on my (home made) manual tire changer and sometimes have to put my 200# on the end to break a bead. Have never bent a rim- even though they are only mounted with 3 bolts in the center. I would guess you got some "bad" rims. Chance you take when buying from the junk yard.

Dietmar
http://www.quixoteracing.com

[CitationFV21]

I think my post disappeared.

I think Gary Kittel made some mandrils for straightening wheels - don't know if he still does that.

Also, go on Youtube and there are videos of how they straighten aluminum wheels.

ChrisZ

[Greg Davis]

Thanks for all the excellent advice everyone. I won't be schlepping my tires and wheels to Maggies Farm no more.

[cendiv37]

Greg,

One last thought on your wheels. If they appear to roll true on concrete and you cannot "see" that they are bent, try to mount them (without tire) on a front drum. The center webbing may just be a bit "sprung" and they might end up pretty straight once they are torqued to the drum.

I've seen this especially with a few original VW rims I have. these wheels don't have the bent lip all the way around the inside of the mounting flange. With most of my "good wheels" - mostly Rockwell aftermarket - I can snug all five lug bolts finger tight and they will all need just a partial turn to be fully torqued. However, with some of these recently acquired used VW wheels I cannot do this as 2 or 3 of the lug bolts will need a full turn or more to be torqued. Once fully torqued however, the rim portion of the wheels run quite true when spun. I've used these wheels without problem on the track.

A caveat of course is that you don't want to distort the drum in order to "pull" a bent wheel straight. So there is a limit as to how badly bent the wheel can be before this will happen. Again, the wheels without the inner lip are both more likely to be bent but are also less stiff in the bolt flange area and thus can more easily be "pulled" straight on the drum. I have never tried to straighten this portion of the wheel, but it could probably be done with the right tools.

To properly balance these slightly bent wheels, one would probably have to bolt them to a flange to make them run sit or run true on a balancer. A bubble balancer on which the wheel/tire combo just sits over a stepped flange to center the wheel (ie. JC Whitney balancer) might not work very well.

I tend to agree with Steve that paying good money to get your tires balanced may not be money well spent. I have usually done this and am doing it less and less since I often have to rebalance one of more wheels later myself, usually by removing weight, not adding it. Interestingly, the worst balancing jobs I've ever had were done on the latest "high tech" spin balancing equipment. I believe these balancers are designed to try to balance "inside to outside" imbalance problems which are common on wide wheels. With our narrow wheels and tires, this is just not an issue, and the balancers appear to chase the problem unnecessarily. Ironically, simple bubble balancers works best.

my $.02

[SR Racing]

Ironically, simple bubble balancers works best.

For FV wheels, a bubble balancer is adequate. However a good "high tech" balancer will also work properly when done correctly. WIth the Vee wheel it is only necessary to balance to one axis. (Unlike the wide wheels used on many modern cars.)

The biggest symptom of bad balance is a harmonic at one or more constant speeds. It is seldom that we are at any constant speed. So unless the balance is way off you are never going to notice anything. There are some additional forces placed on the bearings/spindles, etc when a wheel is out of balance, but I suspect it is a non-issue except when way off.

[Hal]

I made a cracked spindle into a device I can stick in a vice or the mount on my bench in the motor stand, basically the spindle with a piece of pipe welded to it. I have very clean bearings lightly lubed, no grease so if you mount a wheel on there and give it a big spin it will turn for 20 minutes or so. I use the same technique as Dietmar and Brian using old tape weights that I tape to the front to find the balance then put new tape weights on the back and also use gaffers tape for security. I have never had such finally balanced tire since I started using this system, although it can be frustrating and time consuming to get it just right. I bought a cheap tire changer a few years ago and do all my own tire work, by the time I had changed and balanced 6 tires every tire tool I bought was paid for in the saving of having the local tire store do it and it is a much better job. From the "professionals" I have gotten tires back with bead damage that would not hold air (using Shoo Goo fixed that...) beads not seated and supposedly balanced that way, and such lousy balance that once at RA a tire was shaking so much heading into 12 the damn thing was a blur. If you want it done right do it yourself, in the end it is your butt you are looking out for.

Hal
Citation 88
D-13 88

[tiagosantos]

Speaking of which.. What kind of contraptions are people using to change tires at home?

I can usually get away with mounting tires cheaply through friends that work at various shops, but I understand that I'm continuously asking for favors and I'd rather avoid wasting their time. Is there a cheap way to do it at home then?

[DanGrace]

I've been using a manual machine that I bought from Roger Kraus Racing that I got about 25 years ago. works with all wheels and tires except the cantilever formula ford .

[hardingfv32-1]

Have you attempted the latest Hoosiers?

Brian

[DanGrace]

Yes. The new sidewalls are stiffer, it takes a bit more effort to mount them. I did two sets last week.

[tiagosantos]

Has anyone tried the cheapo Harbor Freight style tire changers? Like this? http://www.princessauto.com/trailer/tra ... re-changer

I'm thinking I could use an old front drum and attach it permanently to the machine. Hmm..

[brian]

Looks like it may work but will require flipping the tire around to break the bead on both sides. Not sure whether you can put our wide opening VW rims on it though.

[Greg Davis]

Tiago, I 'm looking into a simple $100 changer from Garage Equipment. A friend of mine told me these work well, but are easier to use if you mount it (he mounted his on plywood) to utilize it's leverage better.

[tiagosantos]

I was thinking of bolting a front drum to the stand (provided the front drum has a 2" hole or bigger.. I should measure it) and then bolting the wheels to the drum. The drum would stay there permanently..

A bit more work than a proper wheel machine for sure! May be worth a try..

Wondering about seating the beads though, would a normal tire inflation tool on a small-ish compressor work, or would I need something fancy to blast the air into the tire quicker?

[Edward Schubert]

Starting Fluid and a Match will set the bead....stand back!