Front suspension

[kkapelke4]

Anyways here is my story!!

I have been racing karts for 20 years and have had lot's of success Multiple National and Regional championships. In 2010 we bought a Canadian formula first and converted it into a vee(1200) it is a Lynx Blackhole. We had nothing but mechanical issues in 2010 and only finished a few races. This year we have been doing a lot better we are in the top 6 out of a 17-20 car grid. That part is fantastic, although we are still miles away from the leaders. Since we are still new we are still learning about everything. We do everything ourselves with help from Bill Vallis (one of the nicest guys i have ever met in racing) from our engine to suspension work. Anyways we are about 5 seconds off the pace of the leaders.

Heres the break down:

ENGINE

Engine built by my father (23 years of championship engine building experience) - (not vees). Joint effort with Bill Vallis.
Kochanski Manifold (He says it flows pretty good)
Vallis heads
The rest built by my father and Bill Vallis
Leak down less than 1%
Compression test 115-120lbs on all 4 cylinders.
Carb flows 111cfm at 28 inches of water pressure.
Every part right down to the min weight.
The thing is we can barely get the car to rev past 6200rpm before i shift into 4th. (don't know if that is a problem?) Any advice?


DRIVER
which is me!!!
My first year I had to learn how to drive one of these vees granted. Much different than the go kart!!! I spent alot of time analyzing the videos from the front runners to learn brake, accel and shift points. I have that down to a "T" now. I don't think it is a driving issue. I mean I'm not schumacher or anything but no worse than the front runners.

Here is my actual question.

FRONT SUSPENSION
For the past year the front suspension has been binding alot and was very stiff. (I mean i jumped on it and it only moved 1/4 inch if that much) This is how we got the car so we didn't know any better. Anyways now we have managed to softened it up because someone told us we should, without shocks it is very springy now and moves through its full range of motion. The front suspension runs Fox Racing shocks from a snowmobile(came with the car). How much of a difference do you think that a soft suspension compared to my rock hard suspension could make on the track? Do you think I could see some lap time difference?

REAR SUSPENSION
Back is set to 6 degrees with 2 and 3/4 droop.
Penske double adjustable back shock don't know what spring is in there because it is not marked. The spring is blue, i don't know if that means anything?

As far as the cars baseline setup it is all there. (front 1.5 degrees neg camber, toe in 2mm)

We are looking for about 5 seconds to the front runners and we are about 2-3 seconds quicker than the cars behind. I am fairly convinced it is in the handling, sometimes I have a feeling that it is power but we all know if the car doesn't handle properly it doesn't matter what kind of engine you have.

The time desparity between cars in vees is mind boggling. I mean in karts from 1st to 20th may be one second difference per lap. In vees from 1st to 20th is like 20th is like 13 seconds per lap!!!!

The car is unstable in the corners lots of steering correction needed to keep it on the track!

Anyways, thanks for listening! Any advice or thoughts are appreciated.

Kevin Kapelke
Blackhole #4
Canadian F1200

[tiagosantos]

Howdy..

You mentioned in another thread that you were 58lbs over minimum weight. While I don't think that's your full 5 second disadvantage, that's pretty significant! That's about 5% overweight, not much different from being 5% down on power to everyone else..

Most importantly though - you definitely should be getting over 6200rpm in third gear without much trouble****.. Sounds like you have a decent manifold and a decent carb - I can't comment on the engine, but still, you should have more than enough power to blast through 6200rpm. That might be your biggest issue, I'd concentrate on that. I just solved that same problem myself, and it can be a whole lot of different things - mine ended up being a large vacuum leak between the intake and the heads

For reference, with my vacuum leak, I was 4 seconds slower on a 1:20 lap..

**** Of course, depending on your engine and how much trust you have in it, you may not want to go much over 6200rpm anyway, but it SHOULD get there pretty quickly if you wanted it to!

[FV80]

Kevin,
I agree with Tiago - if you can't rev past 6200 in 3rd, you have a SERIOUS problem(s).
1). Check to make sure the car ROLLS freely. A single dragging brake (remember these are DRUMS, not disks) can cost you 300-500 RPM in a heartbeat.
2). Check the trans to make sure it is free. (In neutral) Each rear tire should spin relatively freely on a warm day - if you rotate 1 tire forward, the opposite should rotate backwards. If the trannie is HOT (just off the track) and your trans is "really good", you might rotate one tire and the other would not move - but if you start it by hand, it should continue to move as you rotate the first one. If both tires tend to spin in the same direction, you probably have a problem in the spider/side gear/axle paddle/fulcrum plate area - this is a chronic problem with trans in FV - the paddles/fulcrum plates start swapping metal - heat up the side gear and then the side gear starts dragging on the ring gear carrier. If the car has ever had any side impact, or gotten airborne, the force on the axle/hub often drives the axle into the side gear - splitting the side gear - causing excessive drag on the carrier - heating up the side gear, and then the paddles/fulcrum plates and you end up with the same result as if the paddles/fulcrum plates started the process. If you are not sure, then remove the hub, pull the axle tubes, and then the axles and INSPECT all those parts. Look closely at the side gears for any BLUE spots - that's a sure indication of excessive HEAT... and it doesn't take much to cause trouble.
3). If the carb and manifold are pretty decent, then the next most likely place to loose power is floating valves. In a vee, you don't generally get valve to piston contact, but the valve doesn't close fast enough when you reach a certain RPM - it just STOPS pulling. You can get a similar indication if your exhaust system is significantly restricted in some way, or the internal engine parts are not properly balanced or lightened.

My suggestion to you, in order to get the quickest, easiest answer to your basic question would be to RENT (or even BUY) a top engine assembled by a known builder and drop it in your car for a weekend. Possibly one of your competitors has a spare engine and would be agreeable and rent you one for a reasonable fee. In 3rd gear, you should zoom past 6200 RPM without a problem unless you have trans/drag issues. If you don't, the problem is somewhere else in the car - almost assuredly in item 1 or 2 above. If you choose to NOT take this route, you could spend the next 2 years foundering around and THEN decide you have to do it anyway .
Good luck,
Steve, FV80

edit - you might also want to check the gear ratios in the trans (see other thread http://www.formulavee.org/interchange/v ... eet#p14620 about a spreadsheet for doing that) - it's POSSIBLE that you have something oddball in there that just won't work right. Solo people change those gears all around ... and I THINK FST has a required gear set that might not be optimum for your racing. (at least, you need to KNOW what you have <G>).

[G.B.]

Steven's advice is good.

2005 was my first season in F1200 (I'd raced Vee's in Europe before that) and I had engine problems all season and was never able to keep up with the leaders. I blew the motor during the first race of the final weekend of the year. Bill Vallis lent me his spare motor, carb to clutch. The following day I set fastest lap and came second. In 2006, I rented an engine from Bill for the whole season and won the championship!

Currently you have too many variables, you are unsure about the handling, unsure about the engine and unsure about your own driving. I suggest you rent an engine from Bill for a weekend and at least take the engine variable out of the equation.

I hope that helps and good luck,
Guy.

[kkapelke4]

Bill Vallis had loaned us an engine for half of last year it didn't make any difference. I have had 3 different engines in my car so far and all seem to be the same.
As far as driving I think I am good in that department, I know everyone says that but I have been in the top 3 and winning championships since I have been 6 years old. I'm not trying to brag I am just trying to eliminate options. I am convinced that the handling is out of wack!!!

I will look into what you guys suggested.

I really appreciate everyone's advice.


Thanks

[tiagosantos]

The thing is we can barely get the car to rev past 6200rpm before i shift into 4th. (don't know if that is a problem?)

If different engines didn't make a difference, it might be the tranny, brakes dragging, whatever.. Whatever it is, if what you said above is true, it's costing you a lot of time.

The suspension setup on these cars isn't all that hard to get at least in the ball-park.. Make sure you're not getting toe out under braking, make sure you don't have toe out in the rear, set the front camber so the suspension isn't binding, and you'll be pretty close! I've seen our local champion drive the crap out of his vee for two seasons with a car so far out of alignment it wasn't even funny. He was still consistently faster than anyone else.. It might take some tweaking to get the last second or few tenths, but I really don't believe you're 5 seconds off the pace due to your suspension setup. Then again, I've been wrong before

[problemchild]

There's all kind of factors here that can add together for 5 seconds.

He's comparing to fresh National quality Autowerks engines .... +- 2 secs/lap
He's 50+ overweight .... +- 2 secs/lap
He's had very little FV driving time in a functioning FV .... +- 2 secs/lap
His suspension development/tuning is unknown ..... +- 2 secs/lap
Cheap shock package ...... +- 1 sec/lap
Unknown suspension potential (one-of-a kind car)..... +- ? secs/lap
Running in a pack with fast guys (carrot factor) ..... +- 2 secs/lap
Running with a pack of real fast guys (draft factor) (huge at Mosport!!!!) ....+-2 secs/lap
I don't think he has a modern stepped tri-Y exhaust system ....... +- 2 secs/lap

Go ahead ..... figure out the combination (from potential 15 sec/lap) that gives you the 5 secs. It is the $64000 question! My guess is that its mostly the first three.
Kevin and his crew are smart people. They will figure it out. His questions are typical of people that will figure it out one day! As most of us know, it won't happen overnight

PS ..... I also disagree with his tire conclusion. The new ones may look the same but they're not the same. My guess is 1+ sec/lap.

[problemchild]

And why has no one asked if his tach is accurate?

[FV80]

Kevin,
Greg's post brings another point to mind. Put one of those 'faster drivers' in your car on a test day and see what he can do. He might come back and simply TELL you what is wrong - or he might be slower than you. Only a couple of ways to find out "easily"...
1). Put someone else in your car.
2). Put yourself in someone else's (known good) car (rental).

Can save you LOTS of time and $$$ and give you a really good starting point. Early in my racing career, I chose NOT to do either. It took me about 8 years to overcome things that I probably could have learned in 2 or 3 weekends given the right feedback from a known car or driver. I sure wish I had those 8 year back now .
Steve, FV80

[brian]

you can hire a specialist in vees to work with you and the car. An experienced coach can solve a lot of problems just looking at your car and working with you. Plus, it's cheaper than wasting weekends trying to figure it out yourself.

[problemchild]

Kevin has been working with a FV specialist who has got the car to a reasonable "starting point" as an average regional caliber FV. In Canada, Regional and National caliber racers race together. Right now, there are 4 National caliber drivers with National caliber equipment, one of which is world-class. Kevin is competitive enough in spirit .... that he's not happy. That's a good thing. He is not wasting his time at all. He needs laps to develop his driving and equipment. If he wants to run more than 2-3 secs quicker than he's going now, he's going to have to spend some real money ;(

If a first year driver with a no-name engine and a home-built car that was 60 lbs overweight came to Road Atlanta and could get within 5 secs/lap of Mr Davis ..... the "atta boys" would be flyin and we'd be braggin on the awesome new driver. If there were 3 other similiar shoes there, running a power draft under the lap record, then the 5 sec gap would be that much more impressive. I expect Kevin has a good future in the class!

[kkapelke4]

We are working hard as we speak. I appreciate all the input and ideas. We are looking at every angle and using all the advice that has been given.

Thanks we appreciate it!

Kevin & Juergen Kapelke

[G.B.]

Kevin,

I have been thinking some more about your lack of speed.

Mosport is a power track, not so much a handling track. Shannonville is a handling track.

Thus, it strikes me that either you are down on power, damatically over weight or have poor aerodynamics, or combination there of. You can at least check the power output, carburettor jetting and transmission losses by investing in some chassis dyno time.

Whilst there are Chassis Dynos in Ontario, most of them probably wouldn't notice if there was a Vee on there or not. You really need to go somewhere that has experience with Vees, to get meaningful results, which probably means a trip to USA.

Guy.

[SR Racing]

Kevin is correct. Putting the Vee on a dyno would eliminate all the power and drive train issues. We are pretty far away from you so that probably won't work with us. But we have had literally many dozens of Vees on the dyno and know exactly how much you should be putting to the back wheels. While on the dyno you can also check a/f ratios etc.

[G.B.]

I've had several Vees on Jim's dyno and the results have proved very benefical.

SR is in Lexington KY, which takes about 9 hours down the I75.

[Dave]

You can loose about 7lbs. by putting in a super light weight starter. Better than giving up the beer for a month.

Dave

[kkapelke4]

Thanks Guy, I wish SR racing would be closer so that we could use the dyno. Guy when is the next time you are coming to a race? The reason I ask is because my dad and I would like you to take our car out for a practice session.


Thanks DAVE, but we already have a lightweight starter.

[G.B.]

Kevin,

I'd be happy to try your car, but currently, I do not intend being at Shannonville.

Guy.

[hojo]

kev, I would be happy to try your car out at shannonville, I've got a lot to do on mine to get ready for shanonnville, and i might be a little rusty since i havent been in a car for over a year, but I would be willing to throw some laps on it to give you my feedback. i've won there and always run well there so i should be able to help. keeping in mind that i only weigh 135lbs. which means i weigh a lot less than most people so there will be a performance enhancement right there

regarding other's posts about potential problems, your front end does need some work, work on getting it as silky free as possible without and link pin slop. when i first ran my BRD i had the same issues, wayyyy tooo bound up. or way tooo loose, such that the loaded up outside front corner would basically fold over into massive positive camber. it may also be worth putting on stock VW dampers as well as that is a known value across the paddock whereas no one knows what you have in terms of shock ratings on your current dampers. thats what the front guys have currently.

i also would look to brakes and or try to eliminate any of the drag on your wheels, as others have noted you want all 4 wheels to be running free. you should be able to spin your fronts and they should keep spinning for what seems like forever, just like the karts. the rears is a little tricky with all tranny/diff friction.

how does the motor feel near the end of a run? same or less power? reason I ask is while your oil temp may be sweet, your head temps may not, you'll feel very sluggish and the engine wont like high rev's.

if you are way over 1100lbs, thats obviously going to have a serious effect, i've seen guys competitive at 15 lbs over, but if you're over 30+ thats a large handicapp to overcome

with regard to only hitting 6200 RPM - everyones given good feedback, so i cant add anything other than whats your cam timing set at? knowing that you have the right gearbox as well would be an easy check to cross off.
RSP motorsports in London has a dyno that you could get on, obviously they wouldnt have specific vee related info, but it may be of benefit for you. i've never been to it, but i know its there.

again i'd also like to say that from my experience if you can get into the low 1.46's on your own, getting to 1.44 will happen very easily after that. drafting will get you the rest of the way.

shannonville will test your motor out as you spend a lot of time in 3rd reved up for significant portions of the lap especially if its the long track configuration. but as Guy pointed out it, handling cars always show up well there. it feels like a big go kart track to me

good luck i hope iot comes together

[G.B.]

More thoughts.

I am not a Chassis Dynos expert, so perhaps the more knowledgeable could correct me, but the Chassis Dyno resistance is critical to getting meaningful information. A Vee weighs 1000lbs and has 50hp; the average dyno is set up to test 3000lbs, 500hp muscle cars. So a Vee on a 3rd gear power run, takes all day to overcome the dyno resistance and get to 6500rpm, whereas on the track it’s up to 6500rpm in matter of seconds and this compromises the worth of the exercise. That why I recommend taking it to someone with Vee experience such as Schings.

Obviously, being on minimum weight is ideal, but we raised the minimum weight over the winter and cars are posting faster times this year. Also, Randy Smith always complained of being 30lbs overweight and it didn’t seem to hold him back.

[kkapelke4]

As some of you may know we have a chassis dyno. Since every dyno is calibrated differently, every dyno shows different horsepower. (mustang dyno vs land & sea have been proven to be 5-10% different). We don't know what a good car is supposed to pump out. And yes Guy you are right it takes forever to get to 6000rpm on the dyno because it is designed for 3000lbs + cars.

Our cars wheels spin really freely.

We have made some upgrades for the shannonville weekend.
-changed heads to better flowing ones.
-we got a carb built by Autowerks. He says we should feel a difference. (this gives me high hopes:) Maybe this was the whole problem!!!!
-we have freed up the front suspension so much it is like touching glass it is so smooth.
-we have changed the front shocks to stock vw shocks.

So we will wait and see. Except there is another 5.5 weeks to wait, it's torture.

Andrew what kinda car do you have? What engine is in your car (builder)?
The engine power stays the same all the way through a race.
Yes Andrew if our car is still slow at Shannonville I would like you to take it out on the sunday morning hard luck practice. If you want.
If our car is fast after all the upgrades than I don't need you I will beat you on the track. HAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Just kidding! We appreciate the help!

[hojo]

check your PM

[SR Racing]

As some of you may know we have a chassis dyno. Since every dyno is calibrated differently, every dyno shows different horsepower. (mustang dyno vs land & sea have been proven to be 5-10% different.

An Inertia dyno (which I assume you have), has a fixed mass which represents a rolling mass. The represented rolling mass is usually in the 2200-3000 lb area. The calibration is quite simple (actually there is none.) The inertia dyno simply measures the acceleration rate of the mass to calculate HP. There are usually some minor fudge factors entered to compensate for tire frictional losses etc. Then a correction factor (SAE, STP, etc) is applied to account for ambient temps, humidity and barometric pressures. HP is very realistic. Torque is backed into with HP=Torque/rpm/5252. One inertia dyno should always measure very close to any other, since it is nothing but a fixed mass and calibration. There are a couple cavates. Industry standards usually use a 300 rpm/sec acelleration rate. So on an inertia dyno you try to use a gear that represents this as close as possible. Although in actual application it doesn't matter too much. 3rd gear on a Vee is fine. But 2nd and 4th give almost the same measurements. Different gears can change the resulting measurement slightly due to transmission thrust loads and engine/drive train mass. But in our experience with a Vee it isn't much. Tire weight plays a much bigger role and it is best if you make comparisons using the same tire/wheel mass. Here is a graph of a decent FV dyno run:

http://sracing.com/Store/Chassis_Dyno/veeHP.jpg

Here is a video of a 3rd gear run on a Vee. http://sracing.com/Store/Chassis_Dyno/Veedyno.mpg

Note: that this run to 6500 rpm took about 14 seconds. So the 300 rpm/sec was roughly maintained. With this info any good dyno operator should be able to get good comparable numbers. (This car had US FV wheels and slicks. ~26lbs / wheel. A DOT type tire may cost you 3+ HP) (more info in next post)

[SR Racing]

continued:

If you ,like us, have a dyno with Inertia and Eddy Current braking available, you can do far more testing. In this mode we can dial in an additional load so that the dyno maintains the acceleration rate that you would exactly see on the track. (or any rate you want, including a fixed RPM.) This mode does require calibration. A load cell is used to measure the torque applied to the drums during the run. This load cell does need to be calibrated ocasionally, but it is quite simple and accurate. In this case only Torque and RPM are measured and HP is backed into with the same (HP=Torque x RPM / 5252) formula.

Since we have built some NASA AI cars/engines we need to be able to measure the wheel HP. This class uses a HP/weight ratio to determine legality. The top 3 cars in each race are dyno'd after the event. Thus, our dyno needs to read close to the dyno they are using at the track. We are always very close. (and we have a large roller drum and many at the track dyno's use pinch rollers, etc. )

Anyways, the point here is that dynos across brands should be quite accurate if the operator knows what he is doing. We have tuned everthing from 25HP lawn tractors ( a venue quite popular in KY), to 1100 HP+ rails with good success.

BTW We also do FV's on a 1200 HP Engine dyno in Water brake mode. The resolution on the load cell is quite repeatable and accurate. With the predicted drive train losses, we can take an engine from the engine dyno to the chassis dyno and predict the wheel HP to within 1/2 HP in most cases.

[kkapelke4]

Thanks for the info!