Needle Bearing Front Beam Spacers

[hardingfv32-1]

I noticed SR Racing is sell Needle Bearing Front Beam Spacers. Do the needle bearings last in the less than clean environment? These would need to be very small needles.

Brian

[tiagosantos]

Are these the ones that would let you tighten up the sway bar without binding (sorry, I don't really know the name of that much stuff hehe..)? If so, I've heard good things about the ones made by someone else, not sure if they'd be any different from these SR ones..

[sabre1]

Both the needle bearing spacer and the solid spacer will allow you to tighten up your A/R bar to minimize end play. Too much torque with either style spacer will cause drag in the bar as it rotates. The point with the needle bearing version is that you have hardened washers that the bearings are working against versus metal to metal gouging so once set, they shouldn't change.

To address Brian's question, the bearing is in a pocket to provide some protection from the elements. There is no seal however, so moisture and grit can get in there. Periodic maintenance such as cleaning/flushing with WD-40 should minimize any degradation to the bearings.

-Jim

Here is a pic: http://s782.photobucket.com/albums/yy10 ... 20spacers/

[SR Racing]

Jim has answered, but that is basically it. As far as wear; Due to the thrust loads I would use grease (not WD-40) and since the grease you normally put into the beam zerks forces itself out through the legs it will grease the needles. Also the needle bearings could be replaced cheaply if needed. Many people run a needle bearing beam with the same environment and they don't have much problems. The items are pretty trick.

[Ed Womer]

They are thrust bearings that are mostly used in automatic transmissions and are dirt cheap. I think I got mine from MSC as well as the spacers and I think the bearings were about $1.50 and the washer around $.50 each. The biggest problem is turning down the spacer that used to fit there since the two washers and bearing are about 1/4" thick so you need to reduce the spacer by that amount. I still think you need to use the spacer since it fits against the tappered part od the arm.

Ed

I just noticed that I called the washers that go on each side of the bearings spacers so I edited. Hope I didn't confuse anyone.

[sabre1]

Ed is correct in that you can't just add the bearing and washers to an existing spacer. That ones that SR is selling have a counterbore for the bearing and spacers so the installed dimensions are just about identical to the version without the bearing. These also have the OD of the spacer extend beyond the bearing to provide some extra protection. All spacers (if properly made) have a taper on one side to match with the taper of the control arm - this distributes the side load over a larger area.

Jim's comment about the grease instead of WD-40 is a good point. The grease will act as a barrier to moisture and grit.

-Jim

[Dave]

I have used the bearings for years. I only use one washer, the other side rides on the spacer. You can't run the cheap aluminum spacer in this application. FYI the washers are available in at least 3 different thickness. I also run the bearings on all my link pins.

Dave

[Edward Schubert]

Here is a site for metric thrust bearings and spacers. Maybe overkill on the links pins....but certainly couldn't hurt.
http://www.qbcbearings.com/Buy/ThrustBearings.htm

I have used these for years on kingpins on sprint cars and tractors. Maybe using one on the top end of the king pin is a thought.

[problemchild]

I understand how the needle bearings are legal for the sway bar hardware but could never figure out how to justify them as legal for the linkpins. I have several sets I have taken out of cars that came my way. I would use them if someone could explain how I would claim they were legal. Thanks!

[brian]

The Torrington bearings that I use on my cars is part number NTA-3648 and were purchased from a local bearing house. Greg, I guess if you take the position that the link pins are fasteners, then they are free per the GCR. Never gave it much thought.

[problemchild]

I would take the position that the link pin bolts are fasteners.Would not the link pin be a link pin .... the same way that a connecting rod is a connecting rod? Being a rod or pin does not make them fasteners. We can change the fasteners in the connecting rod and the bearings in the connecting rod ..... but I was unaware that we could change the style of bearing in the connecting rod. Would it be legal to put needle bearings between my rods and crankshaft?

If people are doing this .... while others consider it illegal ..... that could be considered an advantage. Perhaps somebody should propose a rule change to allow it.

How many people are using torrington/needle bearings with their link pins?

[SOseth]

I would take the position that the link pin bolts are fasteners.Would not the link pin be a link pin .... the same way that a connecting rod is a connecting rod? Being a rod or pin does not make them fasteners. We can change the fasteners in the connecting rod and the bearings in the connecting rod ..... but I was unaware that we could change the style of bearing in the connecting rod. Would it be legal to put needle bearings between my rods and crankshaft?

If people are doing this .... while others consider it illegal ..... that could be considered an advantage. Perhaps somebody should propose a rule change to allow it.

How many people are using torrington/needle bearings with their link pins?

Or perhaps it should go through the protest and appeals process to get an actual ruling of the legality of this. Then everyone knows whether it's permitted or not. We in FV could have / should have done the same thing with regard to offset bushings and front shock mounts.

SteveO

[problemchild]

It would be nice if the people using torrington/needle brgs on their link pins would explain how they determined legality in their own mind. Also, are 2% or 5% or 40% of FV racers doing this now?

[hardingfv32-1]

The use of needle bearing thrust WASHERS replaces the shims or washers used to adjust the the upright to control arm relationship. WASHERS are a hardware item and are considered free under the rules.

Is the needle section of the thrust bearing a washer? That could go either way depending on the inspector.

Does it matter? This could be a standard feature on the Vortech, defiantly is on the Stout Vortech.

You are not talking about replacing the bushings are you?

Brian

[Ed Womer]

I agree with Brian H as the washers/shims used to space out the link pins is hardwhare and is free under the rules. If you don't think so then you better not be using more than the standard 8 washers/spacers that come with a stock beam, otherwise you are not setting it up in the stock configuration, which would be illegal under the rules since it is not in it's stock configuration and if it doesn't say you can, you can't.

Ed

[cendiv37]

Technically, "fasteners" are free not "hardware". Subtle difference I know, but room for doubt as to whether a thrust washer/shim is a fastener. This concept does get stretched a bit sometimes...

From the GCR:

C.10. Non-Standard Parts
The use of the following non standard replacement parts is permitted
provided that no unauthorized modification of any other component
results.
A. Fasteners (nuts, bolts, screws, etc.)

However, from C.3.A:

2. The use of any anti sway bar(s), mounting hardware, and
trailing arm locating spacers.

(This covers the needle bearings at the beam to trailing arm location.)

9. Caster, camber, and toe in/out settings are unrestricted. Clearancing
of carrier or trailing arm to eliminate binding is permitted.
Offset suspension bushings and alternate locating spacers are
permitted.

("alternate locating spacers" would seem to cover the use of needle bearings at the link pins)

I'm not sure when this wording was added and whether it was pre or post wide spread use of needle bearings at the link pins.

I don't have them at either location and don't think they are needed. Others might disagree

[problemchild]

Does that mean that roller/needle bearings inside the bushing is legal too?

[pillowmeto]

Bearings are free, but engine bearings must be of the same type as OE. I don't feel like looking up GCR quotes.

[cendiv37]

Bearings are free

If bushings and bearings are interchangeable words, then you are correct and I'd agree with your interpretation. However, you will not find "Bearings are free" in the FV rules except for specific applications (e.g. wheel bearings).

The catchall wording in C.1:

"No component of the engine, power train, front suspension, brakes
shall be altered, modified, or substituted unless specifically authorized.
Mass-produced, direct replacement components may be substituted for
the following as long as they are of the same material and dimensionally
identical to the original VW components they replace:
• VW transmission components
• Rear axle components
• Front suspension
• Brake components
These replacement parts must be generally available to all competitors
and must offer no competitive advantage over the original VW parts.
Replacement engine components are allowed as described in section"

This would not seem to allow the replacement of a bushing "a plain bearing" with a roller element bearing such as a needle bearing (different material for sure).

Of course one must put in the disclaimer that this is just MY opinion. As with all opinions (and other body parts) everyone has one!

[problemchild]

It is fascinating that the link pin needle bearings are "in widespread use". We never got the memo in WNY or Canada. Strangely, when doing a search on this site, I could not find that anybody had ever mentioned their use.

Thanks Dave for sharing and Bruce for presenting a somewhat plausible rationalization!

I cannot say that replacing "throw-away wrecker shims" with $50 worth of bearings (per car) seems like a good idea for the class. I guess that is progress!

Can anyone provide part numbers so I can join the club? Thanks!

[hardingfv32-1]

Would not the use of needle bearings for the link pin bushings preclude any chance of negative camber? I doubt the needle bearing housings are ground to provide any offset. The needle bearings are wonderful if you want a smooth moving positive camber front end. Sounds like a few people that have no clue.... unless they are using a beam fabricated to provide the necessary negative camber. Now that would place them on the sharp end of the curve.

Brian

[brp]

I have found some needle bearing link pin bushings over the years. They were in some 'rebuilt' spindles that were rebuilt in Germany and still in the boxes when I received them.

As suggested in a prior post, they are not done as 'offset' bushings as most of the Vee's are using. Not saying they couldn't be made that way. I suppose that a person could turn down the OD of these needle bearing bushings and put them into an offset sleeve.....

Just wanted to clarify that they do exist and have been made commercially.

And, no I am not using these my formula vee(s). And for those can know me fairly well,.... no,I do not know just how many I have (as I didn't think they were particularly useful).

Mike

[brian]

I agree with Mike having bought link pin bushings from JC Whitney and received needles. Still have them on the shelf.

Not to throw gas on this rant but there's been mods to h beams for years, some made at the factory level, and it's never been challenged. Ever notice the welded steering brackets on the Citations? Based on the strict interpretation being expoused here, no Citation is legal is it? If they are, I'm breaking out the welder. Do you think we're splitting hairs on this issue? I do. Unless a mod is making a substantial improvement and completely ignoring the intent of a specific rule, I'm not concerned. Reminds me of the mass disqualification by tech for having putty in the choke shaft holes. Yea, it was adding material to the carb but it wasn't changing or improving anything.

I think the intentional bump drafting at RA is a worse transgression; but nobody complains about that.

[problemchild]

Never gave it much thought.

Brian, I'm shocked. I was still trying to absorb your comment quoted above. I think every FV driver needs to consider legality of every update they make to their car, even measuring up direct replacement parts. For a veteran driver who earns income from FV work and is a former CRB member,I find your comment difficult to believe.

Regarding your most recent analogy, I agree that 20 cents worth of epoxy instead of 20 cents worth of electrical tape .... is splitting hairs. But replacing valueless shims with $50 worth of needle bearings, ordering the parts, and then dismantling their front suspension for installation, hardly seems like splitting hairs. If there was no benefit, it makes everyone who did it look pretty stupid. If one was incapable of doing the work themselves, that would be a several hundred dollar job.

I just cannot understand why people just go along with these creeping updates that add hundreds of dollars in cost to our cars .... and do nothing to improve competitiveness or safety ..... once someone like Dave lets the secret out and everyone updates. It would be so nice if people with "progressive ideas" went public first so that the community can make the decision about their use. Once a significant portion of the community commit to an update, the result is that one side or the other feels disenfranchised and "screwed again".

[hardingfv32-1]

I don't think that you can say that the parts or changes we have been discussing do not improve performance.

Anyone with an ounce of competitiveness is involved with creeping updates. Certainly there will be no big financial cost to the class if the improvement is only used by the person who dreams it up. Once the secret is out what is the deference to the inventor if the idea is band. There is no more advantage available to him at that point... and no harm to the class.

It is naive to think there could be public review of "progressive ideas" before implementation and will never happen with a truly competitive person. If people feel disenfranchised by this part of FV competition, they need to find a different class.

Brian