After Market Spindles

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wroché29
Posts: 163
Joined: July 10th, 2006, 8:44 am

After Market Spindles

Post by wroché29 »

Are there after market spindles that are better (don't break) available? Are we allowed to use them?
Can we use after market dog bones?
Bill Roché
Citation XTC41
Team FootShoot partner
jrv
Posts: 41
Joined: July 2nd, 2006, 8:35 pm

Re: After Market Spindles

Post by jrv »

A recent Fastrack noted a supplier where we could use their spindles and and links and gave part numbers.

http://www2.cip1.com/searchresults.asp? ... =20&page=3

The Fastrack specifically gave two part numbers. I got them and had to assemble each side. They do carry assembled sets, but I am not sure if we could use them. It may have been an oversight in the specification. These are beefy; the spacer on the inboard bearing is part of the spindle, not just slipped over.

Good luck.

Jim Vaseff
cendiv37
Posts: 386
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 7:29 pm

Re: After Market Spindles

Post by cendiv37 »

To expand on Jeff's response:

From the March 2010 Fastrack:

FV Spindle and carrier
In 9.1.1.C.3, add a new section: “11. Alternate spindle from cip1.com part number C26-412-020 and alternate spindle carrier
C26-412-025 are allowed.”

Consider also from the 2010 GCR itself:

9.1.1.C.3.A.7
Standard steering arms may be altered or replaced and speedometer
cable hole may be plugged. No other modification of
the wheel spindle is permitted. Non-VW replacement spindles
shall maintain the same bearing dimensions and locations and
shall maintain the geometric relationship between the spindle
and the king pin bore and boss.

And from 9.1.1.C.1

No component of the engine, power train, front suspension, brakes
shall be altered, modified, or substituted unless specifically authorized.
Mass-produced, direct replacement components may be substituted for
the following as long as they are of the same material and dimensionally
identical to the original VW components they replace:
• VW transmission components
• Rear axle components
• Front suspension
• Brake components

Bottom line: There is quite a bit of flexibility to replace VW components with non-VW components. Referencing the specific cip1 part numbers may have been unnecessary and may appear overly limiting.

HOWEVER: Though the cip1 spindles look "robust" as Jeff says, Brian Harding was correct in an earlier post where he pointed out that the cip1 parts have a small radius at the point where the spindle diameter drops from the spacer (integral with the spindle on these parts) to the inner bearing diameter. This is necessary to clear the bearing and is not a mistake or manufacturing flaw. It does however create a significant stress concentration at this point which could lead to fatigue failure. Whether this spindle is actually better for our application than the stock VW parts is unknown.

Therefore, my recommendation is to ALWAYS use the spacers between the inner bearing and outer bearing (inner races of each) to stiffen and strengthen the spindle. With the proper bearing spacers, you will never have to worry about breaking a spindle again. Without them, you will always have to worry that at some point the spindle will develop fatigue cracking which will eventually lead to failure if it is not replaced.

The spacer kits are available from Mike Palermo.
Bruce
cendiv37
John Deonarine
Posts: 72
Joined: November 5th, 2006, 12:55 pm

Re: After Market Spindles

Post by John Deonarine »

Does anyone have contact information for Mike Palermo?

Thanks,

John
tiagosantos
Posts: 389
Joined: June 20th, 2010, 12:10 am

Re: After Market Spindles

Post by tiagosantos »

Yup - fveeguy at yahoo dot com

I've heard great things about Mike's spindle spacer kits and have a set coming myself..
FVartist
Posts: 116
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 11:59 am

Re: After Market Spindles

Post by FVartist »

The spindles and carriers were developed for off road use. They have been used for over 30 years by off road and dune buggy enthusiasts. You can decide for yourself whether or not they are better. These are new not used parts.
Left Coast Formula Car Board
http://norcalfv.proboards.com/index.cgi?
hardingfv32-1
Posts: 1014
Joined: December 1st, 2006, 8:01 pm

Re: After Market Spindles

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

These spindles are made in China to the cheapest specification possible. We have no idea who set the specifications or what material/heat treatment is used. These parts are not used in sanctioned off-road racing. Now if you mean they can be used only off-road because they are unsafe for road/street use, I can agree with that.

Racing FV's is not the same as playing around in a dune buggy that would be using this spindle.

These parts are junk until documented otherwise. Listing them in the rule book grants them legitimacy that they do not deserve.

Brian
cendiv37
Posts: 386
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 7:29 pm

Re: After Market Spindles

Post by cendiv37 »

Brian, I agree with you on the small radius being an issue. I'm not sure I agree that the material and fabrication is of poor quality. I had one in my hands and actually did some hardness tests on it in various places and compared the numbers to a real VW part. The materials appear very similar, responding to heating and quenching very similarly. The steering arm is wider and this is probably something that the off-road guys want/need more than we do (I cut mine off anyway ;-).

The machining looked good and the bearing race diameters were right as far as I could tell.

HOWEVER, I believe that the small radius IS a problem. Our lateral cornering loads put a much higher bending moment on the spindle than do the the off road, mostly vertical, loads because our cornering loads are applied horizontally at the tread which is 10 inches from the spindle center line giving them a large lever arm. We also do almost fully reversed load cycling (inside tire vs. outside tire) of the spindle which the off-road guys don't.

I believe that the spindle spacers solve the fatigue problem by about tripling the strength of the spindle. You do need to make sure you have the spacers shimmed properly and the bearing nuts torqued adequately (but not too much or you will stretch the hollow left spindle at the threads).

I will not go on the track without the spacers, whether using VW spindles or aftermarket spindles.
Bruce
cendiv37
billinstuart
Posts: 201
Joined: July 17th, 2006, 8:53 pm

Re: After Market Spindles

Post by billinstuart »

Chinese steel is absolutely not the equivalent of German steel. While the parts may look good, I'll bet the metallurgy flunks the test. The Chinese bearings are crap because of the lousy metal.

Just look at the imported rear drums..ever see a German drum spin the splines out?
jpetillo
Posts: 759
Joined: August 26th, 2006, 2:54 pm

Re: After Market Spindles

Post by jpetillo »

Since the VW spindles crack at the base of the radius, and they are made from at least as good metal as the aftermarket ones mentioned, and the VW's have a much larger radius, it's hard to imagine that these replacement spindles will fare better with their smaller radius, as Brian pointed out. However, I agree with Bruce, the spindle spacers (I have two sets) may be all you need to overcome this potential problem. John - just restating what others have already said!
sharplikestump
Posts: 183
Joined: January 12th, 2009, 2:28 pm

Re: After Market Spindles

Post by sharplikestump »

I don't believe we can automatically say that Chinese steel is inferior.
I have purchased Chinese chrome moly H beam rod sets that match Carillo rods on every point. They are said to be capable of handling 500 hp VWs, and show terrific workmanship. Ohh yeah...4 of them set you back $179!
I have some of the Chinese spindles and link-pin carriers. I would trust them long before some of the 45 year old VW factory stuff I see being sold and used. As to the small radius issue, it seems to me that the spindle spacers negate that concern entirely. With the spacers installed, I probably prefer the approach taken by the Chinese.
As to the splines stripping out. While I certainly prefer the German product over both the italian and Brazilian pieces, I wasn't aware the Chinese were making rear drums. Besides, the real cause of stripped splines is almost always worn splines on the axle.
hardingfv32-1
Posts: 1014
Joined: December 1st, 2006, 8:01 pm

Re: After Market Spindles

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

While you can get whatever quality you want from China, you do have to pay for it with attention and money. There is little reason to believe that either of those two were spent when you consider the application or market the Chinese spindles were originally purchased for. We know that we are at the upper limit of the design criteria for the front spindles when used on a FV. As much as you guys want to get by on the cheap, there are some highly stressed areas of these cars the demand expensive high quality parts.

Brian
caracal76
Posts: 57
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 7:44 pm

Re: After Market Spindles

Post by caracal76 »

The small radius is no worse than the radius on the original part, and it is about an inch closer to the end of the spindle, which should reduce the lever effect somewhat. I'm no engineer, but I have had three spindle failures in four years (and don't tell me "you should check them every X number of events"-I do) and have installed a set of these repros because my car understeers badly with three wheels. Forty years of stress takes its toll even on mighty German steel. I'm not claiming they're better-we'll see. They held up fine at Barber last weekend, however I will also be putting on a set of spacers and "wheel tethers"-just in case...
Anthony (actually the Caracal 17-red)

"When you're racing it's...it's life. Anything that happens before or after - it's just waiting."
-Steve McQueen, "LeMans"

"Screw second!"
-Burt Reynolds, "Stroker Ace"
SR Racing
Posts: 1205
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Re: After Market Spindles

Post by SR Racing »

sharplikestump wrote:I have purchased Chinese chrome moly H beam rod sets that match Carillo rods on every point. They are said to be capable of handling 500 hp VWs, and show terrific workmanship. Ohh yeah...4 of them set you back $179!
Huh? <g> They LOOK ok. We have had to have a couple sets resized and the bolts are junk. Replace the bolts with real ARP's and they might be fine. I have no doubt that the Chinese metalurgy will be ok in a few years, but right now it is VERY hit and miss. (Remember when Japan was starting out and making junk. Same thing.)
igino
Posts: 18
Joined: May 21st, 2010, 9:06 pm

Re: After Market Spindles

Post by igino »

is there any other place to get these spindle spacer kits? I haven't heard back from Mike.
sharplikestump
Posts: 183
Joined: January 12th, 2009, 2:28 pm

Re: After Market Spindles

Post by sharplikestump »

igino
Now you have.....didn't know you had tried to contact me. How bout emailing me at "fveeguy@yahoo.com"
Mike Palermo Jr.
Peak Performance Racing
303-838.9515
jstoezel
Posts: 207
Joined: September 19th, 2010, 6:21 pm

Re: After Market Spindles

Post by jstoezel »

What is the consensus on these spindles, has any other test been done? Have they been safely used?

jrv wrote:A recent Fastrack noted a supplier where we could use their spindles and and links and gave part numbers.

http://www2.cip1.com/searchresults.asp? ... =20&page=3

The Fastrack specifically gave two part numbers. I got them and had to assemble each side. They do carry assembled sets, but I am not sure if we could use them. It may have been an oversight in the specification. These are beefy; the spacer on the inboard bearing is part of the spindle, not just slipped over.

Good luck.

Jim Vaseff
Jean-Sebastien Stoezel
WCMA FV #0
hardingfv32-1
Posts: 1014
Joined: December 1st, 2006, 8:01 pm

Re: After Market Spindles

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

Test to what standard?

Look how many years it takes a stock part to fail. You are staring with a new part and cycling it maybe 16 hours a year (2 hrs X 8 race weekends). How fast is a bad design going to really bite you?

Brian
jstoezel
Posts: 207
Joined: September 19th, 2010, 6:21 pm

Re: After Market Spindles

Post by jstoezel »

I was referring to cendiv37 previous post:
I had one in my hands and actually did some hardness tests on it in various places and compared the numbers to a real VW part. The materials appear very similar, responding to heating and quenching very similarly.
At this point the GCR is pointing to this part, and based on the comments in this thread to me it is not obvious these spindles can be used safely.

I need new spindles though.

hardingfv32-1 wrote:Test to what standard?

Look how many years it takes a stock part to fail. You are staring with a new part and cycling it maybe 16 hours a year (2 hrs X 8 race weekends). How fast is a bad design going to really bite you?

Brian
Jean-Sebastien Stoezel
WCMA FV #0
FVartist
Posts: 116
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 11:59 am

Re: After Market Spindles

Post by FVartist »

Opinion vary, I've had them on my car for over 2 years.

Brian H.

They have been in use for over 30 years. I would have expected, if the design were bad, that it would have been dealt with. No one will ever test for use on a FV since the group is too small.

The area that is the weak spot on originals, is the base of the spindle. The carriers weak spots are at each end. I have seen failures on both. The new ones deal with both issues. I do not see how strengthening these areas are a bad design?

To state that the part is designed/made as cheap as possible is rather redundant. Why would anyone not do it that way? Most people that go into business, want to make as much profit as possible. On the other hand, we are a very litigious nation, so I would assume care is taken to alleviate that possibility.

I'm just stating my opinions. Oh, by the way, I disagree with yours. :roll: :roll: :roll: Hope to see you at Fontana. Maybe we can discuss this further.

Bruce
Left Coast Formula Car Board
http://norcalfv.proboards.com/index.cgi?
hardingfv32-1
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Re: After Market Spindles

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

Competitors ask for rule changes. Rules are reviewed and approved by other SCCA members. It is assumed that the competitors now what they are asking for. Nothing is implied about a part's qualities just because it is put into the GCR. IF in doubt you should be communicating with a major FV parts supplier to see what your choices are.

To summarize this new part: The material seems similar to the original but the design could be considered inferior. They are used on the street and I assume not a total disaster. Chances are very good that you will have less than 100 hours on the spindle before you bend it in an accident. Your call, will they make it to 100 hours?

In truth you face the same unknowns with your only other choice: a used spindle. Your not going to find many FV competitors that have stop racing over this unknown.

Brian
Last edited by hardingfv32-1 on December 27th, 2010, 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
FV80
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Re: After Market Spindles

Post by FV80 »

jstoezel wrote:...
I need new spindles though.
what makes you think you need new spindles? Are yours bent or did you find cracks (usually at the base of the spindle underneath, or right AT the slip-on spacer) ?
Steve, FV80
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
cendiv37
Posts: 386
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 7:29 pm

Re: After Market Spindles

Post by cendiv37 »

In my opinion the way to essentially guarantee that neither the aftermarket nor the original spindles will fail due to fatigue is to use the spacer kits now available from FV suppliers like Mike Palermo (contact info above). When installed properly these spacers increase the strength and stiffness of the spindles by effectively increasing their diameter to that of the spacer and bearing races. They also put the outside of what is functionally the spindle (the spacer and bearing races) in compression at all times so the material seeing the load cycling is not seeing a fully reversing load (compression to tension). The spindle itself sees only tension, but with very little load change so fatigue issues go away.

Of course you need to start with straight, uncracked spindles.

The spacers are very effective and well worth the cost in peace of mind if nothing else.

The concern about these aftermarket spindles having a small radius at the transition from spindle diameter to seal boss diameter is legitimate if they are used without spacers, but is rendered moot by using the spacers.

Note that to work, the spacers must be as stiff, or stiffer than the spindle. The concept is somewhat analogous to using stretchy rod bolts and stiff big ends to make sure the the rod bolts don't break. Therefore the spacers must be made of steel, not aluminum. They must also be under enough compression that they never come out of compression due to the bending loads generated from cornering. I use 55 ft-lb of torque and use both original steel bearing adjuster nuts with WB grease as a thread lube and I use the lock tab between. I torque each nut to 55 individually and lock the tab (probably overkill). I found that 50 ft-lb allowed some fretting to develop on my shims indicating a loss of compression. It went away at 55. There is a danger of over torquing the LF spindle due to the speedo cable hole. I understand some people are using 75 ft-lb successfully but my calculations led me to stay with a lower torque.

My $.02... Hope this helps.
Bruce
cendiv37
jstoezel
Posts: 207
Joined: September 19th, 2010, 6:21 pm

Re: After Market Spindles

Post by jstoezel »

Thanks for taking the time to answer in such a detailed way.

I like the suggestion of using a combination of these spindles and the spacer kits and this is probably where I'm going. Sounds like a good idea to use the spacers with any spindles anyways.
I do get my spindles inspected for cracks periodically. This inspection and the spacers should give me enough confidence.

Jean
cendiv37 wrote:In my opinion the way to essentially guarantee that neither the aftermarket nor the original spindles will fail due to fatigue is to use the spacer kits now available from FV suppliers like Mike Palermo (contact info above). When installed properly these spacers increase the strength and stiffness of the spindles by effectively increasing their diameter to that of the spacer and bearing races. They also put the outside of what is functionally the spindle (the spacer and bearing races) in compression at all times so the material seeing the load cycling is not seeing a fully reversing load (compression to tension). The spindle itself sees only tension, but with very little load change so fatigue issues go away.

Of course you need to start with straight, uncracked spindles.

The spacers are very effective and well worth the cost in peace of mind if nothing else.

The concern about these aftermarket spindles having a small radius at the transition from spindle diameter to seal boss diameter is legitimate if they are used without spacers, but is rendered moot by using the spacers.

Note that to work, the spacers must be as stiff, or stiffer than the spindle. The concept is somewhat analogous to using stretchy rod bolts and stiff big ends to make sure the the rod bolts don't break. Therefore the spacers must be made of steel, not aluminum. They must also be under enough compression that they never come out of compression due to the bending loads generated from cornering. I use 55 ft-lb of torque and use both original steel bearing adjuster nuts with WB grease as a thread lube and I use the lock tab between. I torque each nut to 55 individually and lock the tab (probably overkill). I found that 50 ft-lb allowed some fretting to develop on my shims indicating a loss of compression. It went away at 55. There is a danger of over torquing the LF spindle due to the speedo cable hole. I understand some people are using 75 ft-lb successfully but my calculations led me to stay with a lower torque.

My $.02... Hope this helps.
Jean-Sebastien Stoezel
WCMA FV #0
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