Unleaded Gas

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Greg Davis
Posts: 137
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 9:55 am

Unleaded Gas

Post by Greg Davis »

I am somewhat out of the loop here and am wondering whether standard unleaded pump gas is now legal, and if so, is it advisable to run it in our engines.
Dave Gomberg
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Joined: December 16th, 2007, 5:39 pm

Re: Unleaded Gas

Post by Dave Gomberg »

Greg Davis wrote:I am somewhat out of the loop here and am wondering whether standard unleaded pump gas is now legal, and if so, is it advisable to run it in our engines.
Yes, you may choose any fuel that does not exceed the allowed dielectric constant and that does not contain any of the prohibited substances (in excess of allowed amounts). See GCR 9.3.26.A.

Whether it is a good idea to run street fuels in FV engines is a judgment you and/or your engine builder must decide.

Dave
brian
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Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: Unleaded Gas

Post by brian »

Went to the 2010 GCR and share your confusion. It states on page 72 that our fuel has a max of 15 on the DC scale and if memory serves me, leaded fuel would never reach those numbers. So it may be legal to run unleaded, I don't know for sure but you can call SCCA tech department for a clarification, I do not run unleaded. Not because our motors don't like it , but because of our older fuel cells. Be very careful putting street gas in your fuel cell. Some additives in formulated fuel like we have in Ca. will kill a fuel cell. I have a dead soldier in the shop and have confirmed with others about how it died.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
Matt King
Posts: 304
Joined: December 23rd, 2008, 1:44 pm

Re: Unleaded Gas

Post by Matt King »

With the cost of replacment fuel cells approaching the cost of an engine rebuild, like Brian said, I'd be more concerned about ruining a fuel cell, which pump gas definitely can do. On the other hand, it won't blow up your engine, even if it doesn't pass tech.
RickyBobby
Posts: 61
Joined: January 25th, 2008, 8:08 am

Re: Unleaded Gas

Post by RickyBobby »

Another important item to take into account that could destroy your fuel cell and other components of the fuel delivery system is the blending of ethanol in street fuels. Here in Florida, it is required by state law that all pump gas contain up to 10% ethanol. 10% may not sound like much, but if unleaded alone can hurt your expensive cell, then the addition of ethanol will just hasten the process.

Also, aren't street fuels oxygenated? Did the SCCA change the rule about using oxygenated fuels in our class?

Bob
Dave Gomberg
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Joined: December 16th, 2007, 5:39 pm

Re: Unleaded Gas

Post by Dave Gomberg »

I don't know why there is any confusion. The current (2010) rules are that any class (except SSB/SSC) may run any gasoline that meets the DC (<15) and prohibited substances restrictions. It is that simple.

As for ethanol attacking some fuel cells, yes that can be a concern. If you aren't sure about your cell's compatibility with ethanol, ask the manufacturer or, if that isn't possible, use fuels (leaded or unleaded) that don't have any.

Dave
problemchild
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Joined: June 25th, 2006, 9:34 am

Re: Unleaded Gas

Post by problemchild »

I expect that there is confusion because the average person, racer or otherwise, has no idea what the DC level of any fuel is.

Certainly, some general guidance would be appropriate. Maybe we could figure this out as a group ... rather than 500 separate racers with a rulebook in hand.
Greg Rice
"Happy 50th Birthday"
Dave Gomberg
Posts: 60
Joined: December 16th, 2007, 5:39 pm

Re: Unleaded Gas

Post by Dave Gomberg »

problemchild wrote:I expect that there is confusion because the average person, racer or otherwise, has no idea what the DC level of any fuel is.

Certainly, some general guidance would be appropriate. Maybe we could figure this out as a group ... rather than 500 separate racers with a rulebook in hand.
DC of unleaded street fuels with the allowed amount of ethanol (max 10% everywhere but possibly California) will not exceed 15. "Boosters" with additional oxygen may drive the DC over 15. Leaded fuels are typically less than zero. There are a few race fuels that exceed 15. (Sunoco lists DC of their fuels on their web site.) If you have any doubts, ask tech to test a sample. They are supposed to have the equipment to do DC testing.

Dave
brian
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Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: Unleaded Gas

Post by brian »

My point exactly Greg. Unless your privledged to the info Dave just gave us, you just don't know what fuel is legal. This is an example of where the rules got amended because of worker issues and confusion. I think most competiors wanted fuel testing but Tech hated doing it. Additionally, it was virtually impossible to keep up with the chemists out there. Can't speak for other regions, but in SF it's up to the competitor to protest someone's fuel and there's a fee for off site fuel testing. I think the fee is $350. I'm not sure if tech even has the equipment to test at trackside anymore.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
hardingfv32-1
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Joined: December 1st, 2006, 8:01 pm

Re: Unleaded Gas

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

The membership wanted the option to use unleaded street gas. The upside for the club is that it gets then almost completely out of the fuel testing arena, but it does creates some expensive complications. The DC readings are almost of no value now as the rocket fuels of the past will pass this test. So the club is forced to specify the component chemical levels and require the competitors to spend $250 for a lab test to verify. This type of testing can not be done at even a F1 level track. If you are unhappy with a competitor, you have to make a protest.

The fact is there is no simple solution to the fuel issue. NHRA Pro Stocks now fuel up in the staging lanes with a spec fuel. Where real money is involved they have decided that testing is not viable.

Brian
problemchild
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Joined: June 25th, 2006, 9:34 am

Re: Unleaded Gas

Post by problemchild »

As I understand it .... Avgas, low-cost race fuel, and now common unleaded pump gas ( all if un-doctored), are now legal. Those that choose to spend big money for special hp-making fuel that will show legal if tested ... can still use it at their own peril. We will never eliminate the rocket fuel .... as long as there is a market, chemists and suppliers will satisfy it.

I think this is a good step for SCCA racing. Hopefully, the Runoffs and other big events will require spec fuel provided at the track.

I just thought Dave's initial "read the rule" response was poor. After years of abuse, I am sure we struck a chord. His second response was good. Thanks Dave.
Greg Rice
"Happy 50th Birthday"
hardingfv32-1
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Joined: December 1st, 2006, 8:01 pm

Re: Unleaded Gas

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

The rocket fuels could pass the DC test at the track, but never the full $250 lab test.

Brian
dd46637
Posts: 135
Joined: December 24th, 2006, 9:38 pm

Re: Unleaded Gas

Post by dd46637 »

hardingfv32-1 wrote:The rocket fuels could pass the DC test at the track, but never the full $250 lab test.

Brian
I agree, but now the onus is on the racer since no region is going to pop for $250 to test fuel. The only way a fuel "cheater" will be caught is by protest from another driver.
You can bet that the bond for a fuel protest will be the fee.
Last edited by dd46637 on April 23rd, 2010, 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dave Gomberg
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Joined: December 16th, 2007, 5:39 pm

Re: Unleaded Gas

Post by Dave Gomberg »

dd46637 wrote:
hardingfv32-1 wrote:The rocket fuels could pass the DC test at the track, but never the full $250 lab test.

Brian
I agree, but now the onus is on the racer since no region is going to pop for $250 to test fuel. The only way a fuel "cheater" will be caught is by protest from another driver.
You can bet that the bond for a fuel protest will be the fee + shipping.
The $250 is all inclusive. (Had you read 9.26.A, you would have known this.) And, while it will not be a regular practice at every race, there are a few regions that have built some testing into their budgets.

Dave
dd46637
Posts: 135
Joined: December 24th, 2006, 9:38 pm

Re: Unleaded Gas

Post by dd46637 »

I have amended my original post to reflect the rule. It was not my intent to attack the clubs new rules, I happen to agree with them. My point was that there are always a few who will operate outside the rules and the likelyhood of being caught using illegal fuel has gone down with this rule change. I am just not sure as a competitor whether I will be willing to bet $250 based on the smell of somebody elses exhaust fumes.
hardingfv32-1
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Joined: December 1st, 2006, 8:01 pm

Re: Unleaded Gas

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

1) What region is going to have the budget for fuel testing with this racing economy? Is this really an expense club members what to support?

2) How many competitors are really concerned about fuel testing? Is is not a more accurate cost allocation to let those with the greatest concerns over fuel legality pay for such testing activities?

Brian
brian
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Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: Unleaded Gas

Post by brian »

In SF region, we have a Sunoco support program that will pay for finishes with Sunoco on board. It requires patches decals and purchases of Sunoco to receive money, makes sense. The supps say that the region "may" test and that the cost of testing will be borne by the one being tested if they fail. They also have some add'l items on the banned list.


I'm a member of POG (plain old gas) club and support the culbs efforts. At least we're not getting into nitro in the engine oil thing like other classes. An engine with a PCV system can duct nitro or other additives,out of the oil vapors and into the intake manifold. Think SRF, SS, Spec Maita etc.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
remmers
Posts: 164
Joined: December 4th, 2008, 10:07 pm

Re: Unleaded Gas

Post by remmers »

brian wrote: At least we're not getting into nitro in the engine oil thing like other classes. An engine with a PCV system can duct nitro or other additives,out of the oil vapors and into the intake manifold. Think SRF, SS, Spec Maita etc.
:shock:
well, i'd imagine you'd need to change the oil every session for that to remain effective, so that'd maybe be easy enough to police walking around the paddock?
billinstuart
Posts: 201
Joined: July 17th, 2006, 8:53 pm

Re: Unleaded Gas

Post by billinstuart »

you can buy non-ethanol laced fuel, 90 octane, at Florida marinas. It's not the octane, but the available btu's/gallon that affect FV power.
brian
Posts: 1348
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: Unleaded Gas

Post by brian »

Well it seems the racer's virus has hit the fuel pumps again. There is power to be made with racing unleaded fuel but at a price. Sunoco 100 is selling from $8 a gallon and up at the tracks. Portland vendors were getting $12. That's about $100 for a double weekend. Jetting and timing will need to be changed and the stuff contains ethanol so the cells need to be drained after every weekend. Frankly, I tested some, wasn't impressed and went back to av gas. During a cold rain race the fuel caused a hesitation in the carb.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
sharplikestump
Posts: 183
Joined: January 12th, 2009, 2:28 pm

Re: Unleaded Gas

Post by sharplikestump »

I caution the use of street pump gas.
While our compression ratio is very low, we need higher octane than you would otherwise expect for a variety of reasons. Our carburetors, being the 36 hp model were built in the mid 50s to August of 1960. Somewhere around 65, VW started installing a little device on the side of the carb that was called something like an "electromagnetic shutoff valve". The funtion of this device was to block the entry of fuel to the idle circuit when the key was turned off. The purpose was to prevent the engine from dieseling or running on. We have no less than three issues that exacurbate the situation: Running without a fan can increase head temps conciderably. While not much, flycutting the heads and decreasing the deck clearance, does raise the c.r. somewhat. We set our idle up significantly higher than stock, and since these engines were built the pretroleum industry changed how they rate octane, all causing the engine to want to diesel. While this may not cause your engine to "blow up", it can certainly break your crank. Saw this with several street motors, with one of them actually breaking into 3 pieces. Amazingly, it was still running. Sounded awful, and ate the case.
If you do choose to run it, try to remember to drag the clutch while in gear (preferably 4th.) as you turn off the ignition. This WILL eliminate the potential problem.
Mike
remmers
Posts: 164
Joined: December 4th, 2008, 10:07 pm

Re: Unleaded Gas

Post by remmers »

i ran 93 pump gas at NHMS this past weekend without and problems with dieseling or anything fuel related. however heim joints seemed to have it out for me... just drained the cell when I got home since it was E10 pump gas
speaking of which, is harry white on this forum? i'd like to see the in-car video he has of the rear suspension collapsing on my car...
DanRemmers
Posts: 293
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 7:21 pm

Re: Unleaded Gas

Post by DanRemmers »

I had a trailing arm break at speed in an autocross. Can you say "instant loss of control"? The bottom of the frame dragging on pavement does slow you down quickly.
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