6 or 12

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Bbsgarage

6 or 12

Post by Bbsgarage »

I pulled and cleaned up the starter and found that is a 6 volt
Is there an advantage to switching to a 12 volt?
SR Racing
Posts: 1205
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 1:58 pm

Post by SR Racing »

The FV engine has a Flywheel designed for a 6volt starter motor. The number of teeth are different. Thus, the gear on the 6V starter motor is different than the 12V.

A 12V starter will USUALLY work with the 6V flywheel, but can jam. You also have to change the bushing in the trans housing to do it. We have a 12V starter on the dyno and use it with both 6V and 12V flywheels quite successfully. But when we do have a jam it only takes a second to resolve. If it happens on the car in the hot pits or worse, on the track, it's more of a problem. :D (BTW, You can't use a 6V starter on a 12V flywheel, it won't work at all.)

The only advantage to converting to a 12V starter would be a slight weight savings. A better way to save the weight and get a better starter motor is with a HighTorq 6V starter. We have them in stock.
Bbsgarage

Post by Bbsgarage »

How can I tell the difference in flywheels?
I know this is not the original engine to this car, I dont think there are too many 6v 1600 engines.
Dietmar
Site Admin
Posts: 650
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 11:56 am

FLYWHEEL

Post by Dietmar »

Count the teeth:
6v has 108
12v has 130

Size is another indicator, but can't always go by that- 6v is 180mm and the 12 is 200mm

Hope this helps.
Dietmar
cendiv37
Posts: 386
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 7:29 pm

Post by cendiv37 »

Re: 180mm vs. 200 mm; I believe Dietmar is referring to the clutch disc diameter, not the overall flywheel diameter.
Bruce
cendiv37
FV55inSpokane
Posts: 196
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 5:31 pm

Post by FV55inSpokane »

I can still do the 6v gear on the 12v starter swap if you want to go that route.
$75 plus shipping, your new 12v starter and a core 6v.
Lawrence Hayes
Bbsgarage

Re: 6 or 12

Post by Bbsgarage »

resurrecting a post from the dead here, but I have another question.

can you put a 12v gear on a 6v starter?

or can you use a 6v flywheel on a 1600 engine?
Dave
Posts: 187
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 2:40 pm

Re: 6 or 12

Post by Dave »

Te 12 volt starters can weight up to 1/2 as much as a 6 volt unit.

Dave
killerken53
Posts: 17
Joined: May 14th, 2007, 6:47 pm

Re: 6 or 12

Post by killerken53 »

You can indeed use a 6V flywheel and clutch on a 1600 engine.

Don't forget, if you switch to a 12V flywheel and starter you have to clearance the bellhousing and change the bushing the starter shaft goes in ( at least with stock parts). If you are not overly concerned about weight, the 6V starter will work just fine on 12V, just don't plan on cranking it for minutes on end.
Bbsgarage

Re: 6 or 12

Post by Bbsgarage »

Maybe I need to ask a different question.

my problem is that I need to mount the starter with the solenoid at a more upright position, thus not using the mounting holes. Is there a way to do this?
The 6v starter that I have, has a lip that the previous owner used to clamp down on the starter to hold it in place.
the 12v that I have does not have this lip.
VDF1
Posts: 127
Joined: June 28th, 2006, 2:18 am

Re: 6 or 12

Post by VDF1 »

When I first bought my VDF 1 (prototype) it had the starter mounted with the solenoid located above the transaxle, but it was not rotated exactly 180-degrees. What Randy Martin did was cut off the mounting holes and then fashioned aluminum clips both top and bottom to locate the starter at the position he wanted. It sounds like you have something like this already so it may be a matter of redoing what you're calling the "clamp downs" including possibly altering the starter case (putting on a new lip) so the old or a new "clamp down" will work.

I have since gone to the "high-torque" starter which has several "clock" positions for mounting the starter. In my case none of the pre-drilled clock positions worked so I had a machinist drill and tap another hole on the top to mount the starter so it would work. I also had him trim the starter a bit to make it fit.

SR Racing sells the high-torque starter with several clock positions and might be your best bet.
Life atrophies if it gets too far from risk
brian
Posts: 1348
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: 6 or 12

Post by brian »

Using the wrong starter with either flywheel will eventually ruin the teeth on the flywheel. This will happen even quicker if the teeth have been cut down to reduce weight. There was one flywheel that was a 180mm and 6v that would also fit on a 1500 and later crank, it was from a 66 Bus. LOL finding one.

Deitmar, correct me if I'm wrong but I was told to never put a late model flywheel on an old crank or visa versa. There will be sealing problems.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
Dietmar
Site Admin
Posts: 650
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 11:56 am

Re: 6 or 12

Post by Dietmar »

Since my name was used...
Brian:
Not sure that there would be much of a problem with a 1200 crank and an "O" ring -12 V flywheel as there would be with a 15-1600 crank and a 1200 ( 6V-non "o"ring ) flywheel.
The step on the end of the two cranks is quite different- as is the nose of the the two flywheels. I would think that because the 15-1600 crank has a longer "step" that any oil would be taken care of by the "O" ring. This would not be the case in the 15-1600 with a non "o" ring combination.

But then, this is a guess on my part as I have never had to try this.

Dietmar
billinstuart
Posts: 201
Joined: July 17th, 2006, 8:53 pm

Re: 6 or 12

Post by billinstuart »

Keep the 6 volt starter and the 12 volt battery. I remember the old grunt start with 6 volt stuff. Even old boats had a series/parallel switch to crank a 6 volt system with 12 volts. "Don't fix it if it ain;t broke!"
Bbsgarage

Re: 6 or 12

Post by Bbsgarage »

Thanks all.

More then likely I will be "creating" some sort of clamp to hold the starter in place.
kevin willmorth
Posts: 177
Joined: September 16th, 2007, 7:42 am

Re: 6 or 12

Post by kevin willmorth »

When I bought our car, the starter was held in place by a fender washer clamping the edge of the starter flange. This resulted in the stud on the lower mount being bent. It's a silly arrangement that doesn't seem right to me, so I get rid of it.

I use this starter:

http://www.hitorque.com/IMI_Cross_Refer ... wagen1.htm

[ external image ]

The gear reduction uses less power from the battery and the mounting plate allows you to rotate the starter housing in relation to the trans, by clocking the assembly. In my case, even the adjustments were not enough, so I disassembled it and created a threaded insert for the engine/trans bolt, to allow it to be clocked to put the solenoid in the upper position indicated in the image below: The starter motor is 12V, the starter gear is for the 6V flywheel, and it elliminates the use of the bushing in the trans case.
brian
Posts: 1348
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: 6 or 12

Post by brian »

I fab'd a pair of spacers that gripped the flange on the starter then used spacers to fill in the gap next to the tranny. It's worked fine for many years but requires a bit more attention when installing the engine.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
Dave
Posts: 187
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 2:40 pm

Re: 6 or 12

Post by Dave »

If you don't want it to look so crude, take the nose piece(mounting flange) off and mark the location you want and re drill it. I have drilled several for different people. Hi Torque sells the replacement nose for about $20 if you don't want to re drill the original.

Dave
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