Brake shoes

Dave
Posts: 187
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 2:40 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by Dave »

The adjustment hole is in the drum. Maybe you should buy a SR getting started book.
brian
Posts: 1348
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by brian »

Dave's correct the adjustment hole is in the drum. From looking at your pictures the shoes seem to be quite worn and show how the shoes wear unevenly. This is why I recommend swapping shoes, top to bottom at least every two weekends. The shoes will wear more evenly and last a lot longer. You can swap the shoes now but they may be too far gone and cause issues.

I recommend adjusting the brakes before bleeding.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
jphoenix
Posts: 105
Joined: July 12th, 2013, 7:41 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by jphoenix »

Dave wrote:The adjustment hole is in the drum. Maybe you should buy a SR getting started book.
I have the book and have read it a number of times, nothing in the book about the adjustment hole in the drums, but I see it plainly now staring me in the face! The rear backing plates have adjustment holes cut in them. I guess it's so obvious it doesn't need to be in the book. I'm glad I'm posting in the novice forum :oops:

As suspected, the rear drums and shoes need replacement, the drums are well beyond limits and dished in the center of the wear area, so time for new drums and shoes. The rear shoes show the same asymmetric wear as the fronts, so I'll be paying attention to adjusting and shoe rotating.
Jim Phoenix
2016 Red Mercury FV 44
Bob Posner
Posts: 70
Joined: January 23rd, 2008, 7:35 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by Bob Posner »

The rear drums from R. Pare are the old Lybarger extra strong,unlikely to crack version. Best choice,last forever.
BLS
Posts: 412
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 7:52 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by BLS »

The rear backing plates have adjustment holes cut in them.
Jim, the rear drums have adjustment holes just like the fronts. I suspect the rear backing plate holes are where the original parking brake cable went through.

Just looking at your pictures - get new front drums and shoes. No need to fight a brake issue. While you're in there, check your wheel cylinders and replace them if there is any question.

New drums, shoes, wheel cylinders, and springs are less than $300. That is for Italian made drums, the german drums, if you can find them, are a bit pricier. Pretty inexpensive for a complete new front braking system on a race car.
Barry
Old Zink FV,
'87 Citation
jphoenix
Posts: 105
Joined: July 12th, 2013, 7:41 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by jphoenix »

Thanks guys, I sent Richard Pare a message to see if he has some rears available, meanwhile I'm loading up my shopping cart at SR and calling porterfield on Monday. The rear drums are marked IPC, so I think that indicates they are the old Lybarger drums?
Jim Phoenix
2016 Red Mercury FV 44
Bob Posner
Posts: 70
Joined: January 23rd, 2008, 7:35 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by Bob Posner »

Pare is ICP - Indy Competition Products.
Dietmar
Site Admin
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Joined: June 24th, 2006, 11:56 am

Re: Brake shoes

Post by Dietmar »

To clear up some confusion, the rear backing plates on 68 and later will fit the 1200 and they have holes in the backing plates for brake adjustment. Not uncommon to find these on the FV. The fronts from 66 and later will not fit.

Dietmar
ww.quixoteracing.com
jphoenix
Posts: 105
Joined: July 12th, 2013, 7:41 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by jphoenix »

Bob Posner wrote:Pare is ICP - Indy Competition Products.
Correct, that's what is cast in the rear drums, I was mistaken when I said IPC. Been reading all of the posts on brakes again, lots of good info here.
Jim Phoenix
2016 Red Mercury FV 44
satterley_sr
Posts: 237
Joined: June 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by satterley_sr »

If you are using the Canadian wheels the drum hole is covered up by the wheel. You need to drill a couple of adjustment holes in the backing plate.
jphoenix
Posts: 105
Joined: July 12th, 2013, 7:41 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by jphoenix »

I received my new rear drums from Richard Pare today and the shoe wear surface has a very nice finely bead blasted surface, do I need to have that wear surface turned, or dressed in any way? Or is it normal to use as received? I do plan to fit the new Porterfield shoes (now $159 per axle) per the recommendations on this forum and bed them in properly during the first test & tune. Should the exterior of the new drums be painted or left bare?
Jim Phoenix
2016 Red Mercury FV 44
BLS
Posts: 412
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 7:52 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by BLS »

Jim, I would paint the drums or they will rust. Someone else will chime in regarding the braking surface, but I think it would be OK. However, we used to always turn a drum after new bearings were installed, just a very light cut to true the surface. I do not know if that is still recommended.
Barry
Old Zink FV,
'87 Citation
jphoenix
Posts: 105
Joined: July 12th, 2013, 7:41 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by jphoenix »

Thanks Barry, I put on a light coat of black.
Jim Phoenix
2016 Red Mercury FV 44
Bob Posner
Posts: 70
Joined: January 23rd, 2008, 7:35 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by Bob Posner »

I've put several sets of these drums into use as delivered,just brakekleen them well. I bought Porterfield brakes last month for $119,you should call and have them recheck your price.
jphoenix
Posts: 105
Joined: July 12th, 2013, 7:41 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by jphoenix »

Yes, Troy Miller got them for $119 as well. I think I will call and re-check with them. They did confirm the correct shoe numbers and availability.
Jim Phoenix
2016 Red Mercury FV 44
brian
Posts: 1348
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by brian »

Anytime I have to install races in a brake drum I turn the drum to make sure the center is true to the friction surface. Since vw rear drums are splined there should not be a variance in the center relative to the friction surface. Be sure to not only bed in the rear drums slowly but retorque them after the first session.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
jphoenix
Posts: 105
Joined: July 12th, 2013, 7:41 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by jphoenix »

Thanks for the tip Brian. I'll do that with the fronts as they are going to be new drums.
Jim Phoenix
2016 Red Mercury FV 44
brian
Posts: 1348
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by brian »

Make sure the shoes fit your new drums. Shoe makers strike an average in radius when making their shoes. If you have new drums I can almost guarantee the shoes will need to be fitted before use. Check my posting about checking the shoe fit.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
jphoenix
Posts: 105
Joined: July 12th, 2013, 7:41 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by jphoenix »

Got it, will arch the shoes. In the past, I've assembles drum brakes with thin coatings of never-seeze, (actually C5A), on the wear and sliding surfaces, what assembly lube if any should I use on the Vee? All of the surfaces show signs of dressing and smoothing, no bumps, marks, scratches or casting flash, etc.
Jim Phoenix
2016 Red Mercury FV 44
brian
Posts: 1348
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by brian »

I lube the surfaces as well but use Lubriplate brake grease.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
BLS
Posts: 412
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 7:52 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by BLS »

Just for info, I bought a front set of Porterfields, RD4 compound, they were $159.00. + shipping.
Barry
Old Zink FV,
'87 Citation
BLS
Posts: 412
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 7:52 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by BLS »

I purchased new drums and Porterfield shoes. After getting the drums painted I checked the fit of the new shoes tonight. Just for info, I have about 3-4 thousands clearance at the shoe center. If I have the drums turned slightly after installing new bearings this would probably disappear. However, I'm not certain I can find someone local to turn these properly, so I'll first install them and check.
Barry
Old Zink FV,
'87 Citation
brian
Posts: 1348
Joined: June 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by brian »

Most auto machine shops will do a fine job. Ask them for a fine finish.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views or opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR.
BLS
Posts: 412
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 7:52 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by BLS »

A few issues:

I installed the bearings from the old drums in the new drums without any problem. I beveled the ends of each new Porterfield shoe slightly just because... The shoes fit the drums very well in my opinion, about 3 thousands + clearance in the center of the shoe. Put everything together and slide the drum on the spindle. Too tight. I can just barely turn the drum by hand. I do not have the outer bearing in place so it's not perfectly lined up but that is not the problem. The adjusters are turned all the way in. The shoes are installed correctly with the angled end on the adjuster and the adjuster is the angled type and installed in the correct orientation to match the shoe. I have worked the brake pedal to help center the shoes, removed the drum and slid the shoes around a bit and retried it.

It would appear the Porterfields assume at least a slight cut from the drum. Or, the Italian drum maker assumes you will turn them slightly. Or both. :oops:

I have no choice but to turn the drums it would appear unless someone has some idea I have not thought of. It has been so long since I've had a drum turned I cannot remember how they do it to get it perfectly centered. I do recall they hand you the bearings back, so I'm guessing the bearing are removed and they center on the races somehow? I do not see how that works...
Barry
Old Zink FV,
'87 Citation
Bob Posner
Posts: 70
Joined: January 23rd, 2008, 7:35 pm

Re: Brake shoes

Post by Bob Posner »

When the shoe is too tight in the drum and I'm certain there is no overlooked reason,I'll grind a little off the shoe contact point with the adjuster and wheel cylinder to gain enough clearance to back the star wheel off a few turns.
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