Zero roll spring

Rolling Stone
Posts: 90
Joined: January 13th, 2011, 7:54 pm

Zero roll spring

Post by Rolling Stone »

Can one of you experts explain the set up of the spring tension on the zero roll suspension,the whys and wheres of having it tight or loose etc :roll:
SR Racing
Posts: 1209
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 1:58 pm

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by SR Racing »

I don't think we can with that description. :lol:

When you say spring tension, I assume you mean the spring rate on the rear spring? That depends upon the car and the bell crank ratios, pick-up points and resulting angles.
That being said, most rear springs are in the 125 to 200+ lbs per inch range. The rate at the wheel is what is important and that is dictated by all the above.
To a lessor dgree the shock will be involved.

What type/mpdel car and/or zero roll is it? If we have that we may be able to help. If you are designing from scratch, it would probably be best to copy (or at least compare/compute) the ratios/angles from an existing car and you will have a good starting point for spring rate.

USUALLY, a softer spring is more forgiving, especialy on a rough track. On a very smooth track you usually want a stiffer spring setup. Most people find a decent compromise and may adjust the shock alone for fine tuning. There are a lot of variables in all the above including your front end set-up.

And all that probably didn't help you much. :lol:
Rolling Stone
Posts: 90
Joined: January 13th, 2011, 7:54 pm

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by Rolling Stone »

In your TECH TIPS page you say REAR camber can be adjusted either with push-rods or "spring sleeve",I have a MYSTERIAN M2 with a rear Carrera and Blue spring,I dont know the spring rating :oops: I run Mosport mostly which is pretty rough,so I should use a softer setting then?Sorry to be such a Novice,but its nice to be able to read input from experts and SAVE IT,Im old!!!so memory is fading :mrgreen: Thanx in advance John...errr I mean Jim(See what I mean) :lol:
SR Racing
Posts: 1209
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 1:58 pm

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by SR Racing »

Yes, you can adjust the rear camber with the push rods or the spring perch within limits. Keep in mind this only changes the camber. It doesn't change the spring rate. If it is a stiff spring, it will still be a stiff spring no matter what you do with the rods or perch. You will only be changing the camber.
You have to make sure that there is no interferences at limits. I am not real familliar with the Mysterian initial setup but I am sure someone here will be.

No problem on being a novice. We all were once.
FV80
Site Admin
Posts: 1176
Joined: June 27th, 2006, 9:07 am

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by FV80 »

Rolling Stone wrote:In your TECH TIPS page you say REAR camber can be adjusted either with push-rods or "spring sleeve",I have a MYSTERIAN M2 with a rear Carrera and Blue spring,I dont know the spring rating :oops: I run Mosport mostly which is pretty rough,so I should use a softer setting then?Sorry to be such a Novice,but its nice to be able to read input from experts and SAVE IT,Im old!!!so memory is fading :mrgreen: Thanx in advance John...errr I mean Jim(See what I mean) :lol:
No one can give you the slightest clue as to whether you should be 'softer' or 'harder' than what you are if you can't tell them where you are now. The shock will also play a big part in that (valving and such). If you don't know what spring you have in the car, you should endeavor to find out. Remove the spring from the shock (if possible) and look on the 'face end' of the spring - MOST are marked with the spring rate. You should also measure (and RECORD) the free length at that time and PUT IT IN YOUR RACING LOG BOOK - if you don't HAVE a "racing log book", then START ONE <g>. Whenever I determine a 'rate' and 'length', I write it on the spring coils several times so that I can find it easily next time I need it - whether on the car or not.

Also - just FYI. This is an open forum, but *I* like to know who I'm "talking" to. I sign all of my posts with my NAME and car number. You should too. There are a LOT of people on this forum, and you are a lot more likely to get good responses if we can tell who you are and where you are from. Often, questions asked are "region specific" .. even if you don't realize it. If we have an idea if you are from NEDIV, or SOPAC, it might have a significant impact on the response. We can also often direct you to "local" or "semi-local" help if we can tell where you come from. I doubt you have to worry too much about SPAM by telling us what your first name is and what state you are from. (I'm pretty sure I've seen a name and rough location, but just don't have the time to try to dig through all the posts again to try to find it). IMHO, EVERYONE SHOULD SIGN THEIR POSTS (and most do). Since you run Mosport mostly, we MIGHT guess that you are CANADIAN FV1200, which would mean you run street radials, rather than full racing slicks. Your profile shows NOTHING useful.
Yes - this is a 'rant' (although not personal) - I just prefer that people requesting help on forums provide some useful info on their profile or sig.

Steve, FV80
The Racer's Wedge and now a Vortech, FV80
To sign up in the FV Registry for updates about SCCA Formula Vee, please send me an email or PM with your name, location (city/state), make/model of car, phone # and any other appropriate info.
Rolling Stone
Posts: 90
Joined: January 13th, 2011, 7:54 pm

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by Rolling Stone »

Would you like my blood group also :mrgreen: Yes Im F1200 Ontario,Mysterian M2, Falken AZENA Radials,live near OTTAWA Ummmmm Male 63 yrs old,2 seasons racing,ummmmmm ,only race in Ontario cos im slow :lol: trying anything to get it right as I am SLOW its an age thing but also I do everything on my own mechanically and am not afraid to ask advice from guys/gals who know what they are doing more than i do 8) Our F1200 internet site is pathetic so I come in here,as your site is very informative and regularly used,I appreciate all the advice in here,it takes a lot of seat time/experience to get anywhere racing,and a lot of folks in here have it 8) Im not asking about secret tricks,just basic stuff.
Rolling Stone
Posts: 90
Joined: January 13th, 2011, 7:54 pm

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by Rolling Stone »

Oh ye!!car #87,yellow with green numbers and wheels :mrgreen:
Rolling Stone
Posts: 90
Joined: January 13th, 2011, 7:54 pm

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by Rolling Stone »

I get a lot of help from Bill Vallis or Greg Rice at the track,I just like all expert opinions from people with a lot of experience.
Rolling Stone
Posts: 90
Joined: January 13th, 2011, 7:54 pm

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by Rolling Stone »

Jim at SR Racing is pretty informative too :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
BLS
Posts: 417
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 7:52 pm

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by BLS »

Rolling Stone, if you look through all the posts on this site you'll find a number of people that go out of their way to answer questions and give advice. Steve is one of them and has a wealth of knowledge. Asking your particulars is just a way of improving the response.
Barry
Old Zink FV,
'87 Citation
Rolling Stone
Posts: 90
Joined: January 13th, 2011, 7:54 pm

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by Rolling Stone »

And many thanx Steve for any tech advice .
hojo
Posts: 64
Joined: December 20th, 2007, 3:56 pm

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by hojo »

frank
Your best bet would be to look at what greg is doing with steve bamford's M2 up here at mosport. that would give you the closest comparison i believe. I'm sure your setup is already similar to that or within reason when it comes to the actual design and geometry, thus your values should be similar i would think.

if the car isnt wheel hopping over bumps (too stiff)or driving like a 64 caddy with original shocks (too soft) you should be able to tune it to what works for you based on your driving style and car characteristics.

it would definielty help you in the forum to let people know what car you have and who previously owned it in the US as well as they may recognize it better, the more specific info you can give, the more specific the info will be in return.

Also, validating who you are also takes the "who's behind the mask"out of the equation for responders.

have you had 2 wheels in the grass yet?
Andrew McMurray
EX - Ontario F1200
Rolling Stone
Posts: 90
Joined: January 13th, 2011, 7:54 pm

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by Rolling Stone »

Andrew,
Greg said I need a Top Security clearance to see Steves M2,also he wants $150 up front and a six pack..I declined :mrgreen: Ye..I will check out Steves If he doesnt mind...and No I have not had 2 wheels on the grass,car handles pretty well,Kevin is taking it out on Sundays Hard Luck practice at Mosport ,so that will give me some feedback..plus Im charging him $50 for the privilege :lol:
problemchild
Posts: 902
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 9:34 am

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by problemchild »

Maybe you should pay someone $50 who is experienced, fast, and of similiar size to the driver. Like Michael or Andrew.

I know 'pay" is a dirty word.

And I thought Frank getting into the grass was going to go a different direction too.

The Bamford M2 has literally had no tweeks, updates, or adjustments in the last year. We even ran the exact same setup at Homestead on slicks. I lost my magic wand at Calabogie last year.

It's called track time! Lots of it!
Greg Rice
"Happy 50th Birthday"
cendiv37
Posts: 386
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 7:29 pm

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by cendiv37 »

In my experience, an M2 Mysterian will like a spring that is softer than what many other cars might use. Same on the shock valving, etc. I believe the M2 has a higher spring to wheel motion ratio (more spring shock movement per wheel movement) than many other Vees.

Running slicks here in the US, I have pretty much stuck with a 125# spring all these many years. I tried a 140 once and I seemed to lose some rear grip, but maybe I gave up too soon and went back to what I was used to. But since I'm always struggling for rear grip, I've always stayed pretty soft.

It's a starting point.

my $.02
Bruce
cendiv37
Rolling Stone
Posts: 90
Joined: January 13th, 2011, 7:54 pm

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by Rolling Stone »

problemchild wrote:Maybe you should pay someone $50 who is experienced, fast, and of similiar size to the driver. Like Michael or Andrew.

I know 'pay" is a dirty word.

And I thought Frank getting into the grass was going to go a different direction too.

The Bamford M2 has literally had no tweeks, updates, or adjustments in the last year. We even ran the exact same setup at Homestead on slicks. I lost my magic wand at Calabogie last year.

It's called track time! Lots of it!
"I thought Frank getting into the Grass was going a different direction too" :mrgreen: :mrgreen: , I bet that went over most folks heads..Good one Greg!!
I want Kevin to try my car re:handling etc,not speed(I need a rebuild)and he gives good feedback from his experience driving Karts were he regularly beat the likes of Mike and Andy,he just needs more track time ..lots of it as you say.
hojo
Posts: 64
Joined: December 20th, 2007, 3:56 pm

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by hojo »

i only say "have you put 2 wheels on the grass yet" simply becuase ....and i mean this as a joke more than anything...what i really mean is... are you driving the car at or near the limit of adhesion on a frequent basis? are you extracting all you can out of the car currently?

only then will you be able to discern what direction in setup you would need to go for your car and start looking at things like springs etc. if your are not on the limit or capabilities of the car any changes you make will prevent you from getting to that limit becuase theoretically you wouldnt know what it would feel like to begin with. for me I cant tell if i've reached my limits on a given corner unless i go over the limit peridocially to find out where it is. and thats what i meant about putting two wheels on the grass every now and again.

the reason i say this is because your current setup is probably more than likely adequate and spending money on parts to "upgrade" may not be the best way to be more competitive.
Andrew McMurray
EX - Ontario F1200
Rolling Stone
Posts: 90
Joined: January 13th, 2011, 7:54 pm

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by Rolling Stone »

hojo wrote:i only say "have you put 2 wheels on the grass yet" simply becuase ....and i mean this as a joke more than anything...what i really mean is... are you driving the car at or near the limit of adhesion on a frequent basis? are you extracting all you can out of the car currently?

only then will you be able to discern what direction in setup you would need to go for your car and start looking at things like springs etc. if your are not on the limit or capabilities of the car any changes you make will prevent you from getting to that limit becuase theoretically you wouldnt know what it would feel like to begin with. for me I cant tell if i've reached my limits on a given corner unless i go over the limit peridocially to find out where it is. and thats what i meant about putting two wheels on the grass every now and again.

the reason i say this is because your current setup is probably more than likely adequate and spending money on parts to "upgrade" may not be the best way to be more competitive.
I know what you meant Andrew,Im just kidding around,its just seat time,experience,age etc,etc Im quite happy where I am,someone has to be at the back in any class of racing 8) As I said to Greg,outlook on life/racing at 63 is different from being 23 or whatever,im just happy to be driving instead of watching from the stands.I like reading the info these expert guys give you tho,it all helps,and every little bit helps me to learn.
hojo
Posts: 64
Joined: December 20th, 2007, 3:56 pm

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by hojo »

the site is a great wealth of information when it comes to understanding how the cars work and how to stay on top of your car if/when issues come up. chances are someone who regularly posts on here has already dealt with a similar problem in the past.

when it comes to advice on tuning and handling, because every single driver, style and car combination is different, what works for one driver wont work for another. the community can get you in the ball park but to get your combo to be at its fullest potential can only be dialed in where the actual rubber meets the road. so being out there on track fact finding will get you there sooner. and plus its way more fun than say swapping a shock out in the pits for no real reason.
Andrew McMurray
EX - Ontario F1200
problemchild
Posts: 902
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 9:34 am

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by problemchild »

Frank, I'm leaving tomorrow morning. We won't run the M2 until Saturday. You're certainly welcome to inspect or measure up anything on the car, as long as you don't tell Kevin our secrets.

We're bringing a new member of our fleet.

Image

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Greg Rice
"Happy 50th Birthday"
kkapelke4
Posts: 21
Joined: June 1st, 2011, 11:40 pm

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by kkapelke4 »

1
Last edited by kkapelke4 on August 3rd, 2011, 11:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
BLS
Posts: 417
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 7:52 pm

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by BLS »

Greg, I take it that is a Canadian version of the FV? Looks good.
Barry
Old Zink FV,
'87 Citation
problemchild
Posts: 902
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 9:34 am

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by problemchild »

That is a Womer EV-3.

I have atleast one spare set of wheels and tires to lend out if any American FV racers want to give F1200 a shot. That might get us to the twenty car level. Three events remain .... Sept 4 and 18, Oct 2 weekends.
Greg Rice
"Happy 50th Birthday"
BLS
Posts: 417
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 7:52 pm

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by BLS »

I recognize the Womer. Just wasn't sure what the sanctioning body was. I take it that it is Canadian F1200 with those wheels and tires?
Barry
Old Zink FV,
'87 Citation
Rolling Stone
Posts: 90
Joined: January 13th, 2011, 7:54 pm

Re: Zero roll spring

Post by Rolling Stone »

Nice looking Car,looks like it will be a front runner!!!!Watch out MIKE,ANDREW etc :shock: Good to see NOEL & DAVID will be racing this W/end :lol:
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