spindle nut tightening?

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rayce13
Posts: 26
Joined: April 13th, 2011, 10:46 am

spindle nut tightening?

Post by rayce13 »

I am rebuilding/refreshing a citation and replaced the front brakes, but spindle spacer bushings in and repacked the bearings. Putting it back together (with aluminum lock nuts w/ clamp down screws) I am struggling with how tight they should be. It seems if I tighten it to where I think it should be the wheel will barely turn but if I loosen it to where the wheel spins freely it seems fairly loose although there is no sideways movement in the drum. Given that the lock nuts aren't for a socket I can't check what the torque is on them either. Any help is appreciated.

Thanks
Russ Dykstra
FV '95 Citation #13
FV '93 Citation #31
jpetillo
Posts: 759
Joined: August 26th, 2006, 2:54 pm

Re: spindle nut tightening?

Post by jpetillo »

If you're using the Polermo spindle spacers, you should be shimming them so that there is some free play when tightened. If you tighten them more, nothing should change - getting the same gap or free play. If the wheel gets harder to turn as you tighten, then you need more shimming so that it doesn't. I first lightly grease the bearings when testing for the right shim set. That way the grease won't mask when you get free play. I use the combination of shims that gives the least free play that I feel by rocking the drum - there aren't a lot of possible combinations with the set of shims that come with the spacer set. When you find the shims set that works best, take it apart, grease the bearings up and tighten it up. Mike suggests 40 ft-lb, which you have to guess at for the reasons you mentioned. I first use a ratchet on something like a wheel lug to test what 40 ft-lbs feels like - but hold it at the length of the open end wrench you'll use on the locking nut, and then you'll be close when you use that open end wrench. Did that make sense?

I just readjusted mine last night. Take your time - it can go fast or slow, but it will come to you. I use a set of calipers to measure the shims so I know what different combinations feel like as I swap them in and out. I hope that helps.

You'll probably get a bunch of different techniques recommended from this forum - all should work fine. Good luck. John
SR Racing
Posts: 1205
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 1:58 pm

Re: spindle nut tightening?

Post by SR Racing »

Without the Palermo spindles. Just snug it down to make sure the races are set. Then back it off just enough so that you CAN feel some free play. As little free play as you can feel. (Make sure that it is bearing play and not king pin or steering play. Use the backing plate as your reference.) Then lock it dowm. IF this is your first time after replacing the bearing races, it is a good idea to check it again after your first session. And not a bad idea to rough check it every weekend. Remember to adjust your brakes after this is done.
rayce13
Posts: 26
Joined: April 13th, 2011, 10:46 am

Re: spindle nut tightening?

Post by rayce13 »

Thank you! They are Palermo spacers and I couldn't quite figure out the relationship of the spacers to the free play but understand now. Thanks again.
Russ Dykstra
FV '95 Citation #13
FV '93 Citation #31
cendiv37
Posts: 386
Joined: June 25th, 2006, 7:29 pm

Re: spindle nut tightening?

Post by cendiv37 »

I've been using the spacers for over 10 years. Mike got the idea from me though I can't claim to have invented it: the Brits have been doing it for years...

I do not use the aluminum adjuster nuts with the spacers and would recommend against it. The aluminum is not strong enough to allow the torque I feel is needed to properly preload the spacers between the bearings. The idea of the spacers is to preload them in compression and put the spindle in tension. If you don't put enough torque on the spindle nut, you will not keep the spacers in compression and the spindle in tension under cornering loads. That defeats the purpose of the spacers and will make them less useful in both protecting the spindles from cracking and stiffening the system overall (less camber loss). Also, the spacers need to be as stiff as possible relative to the spindles so aluminum spacers are also a bad idea (IMHO).

I recommend you use the two stock spindle nuts and maybe (I do) even the lock tab between them. I set-up my wheel bearings (rollers) to have about .002" end play with essentially no grease (just a light coating of oil for set-up is fine). Just use one nut and torque it to 40 - 50 lb and measure the end play. Start with too much shim so you have end play to measure, then mic the shims and adjust accordingly to try to hit the goal for end play. Try the new shim pack and measure end play again. Repeat until you like it. Then grease the bearings and assemble it all.

I torque each of the stock nuts to 55 ft. lb. and then lock the tabs (probably overkill). My experience was that at 50 ft. lb I still got a bit of chafing/fretting between the shims but at 55 it went away. I would not go higher than 65 ft. lb. or you might stretch the hollow left spindle.

One of the beauties of this whole system is that once you have it done right, it never changes for that drum and spacer set. You just have to torque the spindle nuts and it goes back right where you set it up. Every time.

Your mileage may vary...

Good Luck

PS: For the 55 ft. lb torque, be sure you grease the spindle nuts and bearing thrust washer, etc. so all the torque works to tighten the nut, not just overcome friction at all the sliding surfaces.
Last edited by cendiv37 on May 24th, 2011, 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bruce
cendiv37
hardingfv32-1
Posts: 1014
Joined: December 1st, 2006, 8:01 pm

Re: spindle nut tightening?

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

Bearing function best (less drag) with the proper amount of pre-load. This is what is stated in bearing design manuals. I believe pre-load reduce bearing element vibration/harmonics reducing energy loss. Most Nascar teams let Timken set their bearings at the factory for best effect. Why would FV bearings work better loose when this is not recommend for all other wheel bearings? I know it would be hard to make perfect, but is a little loose better than a little tight? Should be able to achieve no play without too much trouble.

Brian
SR Racing
Posts: 1205
Joined: June 24th, 2006, 1:58 pm

Re: spindle nut tightening?

Post by SR Racing »

We are talking about two totally different systems here. The Palermo vs. stock. With his system you do want the axle nuts tight and you shim for proper mating. With the stock VW, you do not.
I know it would be hard to make perfect, but is a little loose better than a little tight?
Absolutely yes, with the stock system. You want them with SOME play. Under braking and speed they will get hotter and expand. You can't achieve 0 play realistically, so you just make sure you have SOME play. ( I would think that even with the Palermo system you want some play.)
hardingfv32-1
Posts: 1014
Joined: December 1st, 2006, 8:01 pm

Re: spindle nut tightening?

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

Yes, I understand. It would be more accurate to state pre-load regardless of what system you are using.

I don't think we can say clearance change because of heat is at issue. All wheel bearings applications have a pre-load requirement and most are in a cast type steel hub. The expansion issue could be viewed as similar in this case.

It would be much more logical to label "loose as better" as another FV myth lacking any validation in science. This also goes for the loose gearbox philosophy.

Brian
CitationFV21
Posts: 272
Joined: July 6th, 2006, 10:49 pm

Re: spindle nut tightening?

Post by CitationFV21 »

It also matters what type of bearing you have.

Ball bearings usually run 0 to some preload (smaller contact area and the ability of the bearing to deform. They don't like play as they get flat spots when hit hard).

Roller bearings tend to run slight play - if run tight, the larger contact area and heat expansion will cause more friction which means more heat which means.....you get the picture.

I actually have a hybrid in my car right now, rollers on the inner and ball bearings on the outer. No reason but that's what I had when an inner went bad.....

I found the old VW "can you move the big washer" works well with the Non-Palermo (standard) setup. As you tighten the aluminum clamp nuts with the allen wrench, they either loosen or tighten - mostly tighten. So you have to guess a little - might take a time or two to get it right. The big washer should just slide and you have no axial play.

ChrisZ
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