Startting from Scratch - FV or FST?

[wake74]

After getting Jim's book yesterday and reading the FST section, it has gotten me to thinking about buying a used FST car verses a used FV car. Seems the cost of entry is about the same for both (on the used market), and the maintenance costs over the long term are in favor of FST.

I'm aware of the very small FST fields in my area (mid-Atlantic), but I'm not too concerned about having competition in my "class." Since the FSTs appear to run with the FVs, I am assuming I can find some on track competition in the FV group. I'm not at all concerned about the lack of a nationals for FST.

Plusses:
- Less maintenance cost
- Better availability of parts
- No special expensive parts, like manifolds
- Been around forever

Negatives:
- Very little following in my area
- Not as well established, is it here to stay?

So a simple (but very loaded question). If you were starting over (rookie, no car, etc.) would you consider going to FST verses FV?

Thanks!

Glenn

[Bill_Bonow]

Glenn,

Please understand that I'm biased in this discussion.

Your list of positives/negatives are pretty much spot on. The only thing I could add is that as a nation wide regional class (in the GCR), it will be a long time before FST goes away (ASR is still in the GCR as a regional class). I think the establishment of the class has been geography based. In a combined Cen-Div and Great Lakes Div FST and FV regional entries ran 1:1 in 2010. However, in Midwest Div there have not been any FST entries this year. The economy has not helped our growth, but FST has not shrunk with 162 entries nation wide for the year (close to that same level for the past 3 years).

The key is getting that first car in your area. Our experience has been that once people see a local car on a local track, more are just around the corner. Here is a shot of Nelson Ledges from 2009.

[ external image ]

To be fair, here are the SCCA Regional entry figures from 2010 by division:

Div-------FV---------FST
CE--------31---------55
GL--------73---------48
MW-------27----------0
NE-------316---------31
NorPac---178--------15
RM-------16----------0
SE--------115--------13
SoPac-----12---------0
SW--------31---------0

Total-----799-------162

[SR Racing]

gLEEN,

I too am somewhat biased. But given you are awre of and don't mind the negatives, FST is clearly the way to go. Keep in mond that there are several good deals around in both classes in the current market. However long term FST maintenance $ and parts availability far surpasses the FV. Either a FST purposebuilt car or a FV conversion if done well have been equally successful on the track.

Due to the economy and FV costs, I doubt there will be any growth in FV for the future. Whereas more FST cars are under construction/conversion. (As a matter of fact, I just sold a another full conversion kit last week to someone. In either class you will have competitors and most parts available for many years so that probably isn't an issue in its self.

[AJP]

but I'm not too concerned about having competition in my "class."

I'm still relatively new to this racing thing and I thought the same thing about competition as well.
But I think you might feel that way for at least one race..... Driving around a racetrack fast may be fun but the thing that keeps you coming back for more, the thing that turns this hobby in to an obsession where you think about it way too much, is the competition. It's the reason you go faster. Otherwise it's just driving around. You might find it hard to get yourself to the track if the only person you have to beat is yourself.
I feel you should pick the class that has the most competition in your area. Especially if your just starting out. You will need the knowledge of the other racers to assist in decreasing your learning curve and most important making it and keeping it fun.
As a newbie, you shouldn't be worried about or responsible for pioneering a new class. Which is what FST still is in your region.
Get yourself to the race track, watch some racing and talk to the racers before you make a decision!
I may be biased in this discussion as well, but I think you would find it difficult to find any FV or FST racer to recommend a class that has no competitors to someone just starting out.

Andy Pastore
Caldwell D13
NER
"I love Formula Vees too, there's plenty of them race with"

[Bob Posner]

Most established racers recall their mentors early on,and would agree that their continuation in a class was in large part due to the help in advancing the car and their driving skills. Pick the class with drivers who'll help you,and be aware that no fv drivers will appreciate a fst attempting to race with them due to the fact that you'll pass them on the straight and impeed them in the corners until you learn the handling,which takes years.

[Veefan]

be aware that no fv drivers will appreciate a fst attempting to race with them due to the fact that you'll pass them on the straight and impede them in the corners until you learn the handling,which takes years.

That's a silly point to argue for someone not to start in FST... Since if he starts in FV... he "could" impede the experienced formula vee drivers in BOTH the straights and corners... if he doesn't give up the line for faster or more experienced drivers.

[wake74]

Thanks for all the replies, lots of new info to process. Unfortunately, this is the wrong time of the year to drive out to the track and watch some races. It's not a decision I need to make immediately, but spring drivers schools are not too far off.

Let me clarify my statement about not being concerned with having my competition in "class." I am assuming that since I would still be on the track with the FV group there would be lots of "racing" still available. I definitely don't want to just run around the track at speed by myself. I'm a pretty competitive guy at heart, but then again, aren't we all. My point was more centered around having to win, score points, etc.

Bob makes an interesting point, about established racers not taking kindly to some rookie passing them on the straight, only to have that same rookie hold them up in the corners due to lack of experience. More of a region specific issue I would guess. Not much I can do about the region I'm in.

Any other comments / opinion would be appreciated. Feel free to send me a PM if you would rather share your opinion off the forum as well.

[Speedsport]

I think what Bob was trying to say was in general, other classes don't enjoy racing with other classes. It creates mostly frustration. I can't stand it when a FF, F500, or for that matter, a FST is trying to race me. I am not entered in a race against them...doing so is just ruining my focus on who it is I am supposed to be racing...so don't try to race me. I believe that is the general sentiment among drivers - otherwise, no one would care that we are forced to run with other classes at the same time, which I believe is safe to say, we all hate.

So keep that in mind. If you start mixing it up with FV's while driving a FST, chances are good you will not be well recieved. So if you are the only FST, you basically will be driving around the track by yourself. Competition is what makes racing fun - go where the competition is.

[brian]

I think the idea of going to the track and talking to the existing folks is very valuable, regardless of class. Hooking up with an experienced racer will greatly help you find and pick the right car, regardless of class. Asking for opinions on the forum is like expecting cooperation in Congress we all have our biases and not likely to change. Much of what is written are opinions and generally overstated.

Other than the tires, I doubt that maintenance and reoccurring costs are that much different. Travel, entries, driving gear are all expenses that are not class dependent and will represent the majority of what you spend.

Good luck and welcome to the fold.

[Bob Posner]

Michael's (Speedsport) post is on point with mine. I wouldn't discourage anyone's effort in fst,nor is it about a rookie passing an old hand in fv. It's about a faster and out of class car assuming it's ok to search out competition in the form of other classes in the same racegroup. It's ok for a new driver in a class to race with others in his class who are faster or more experienced - the key is the same class. I'd be thrilled to chase a brand new fv driver and hate contending with club fords who think racing with vees is reasonable.

[problemchild]

There are different locations where choosing either FV or FST may be preferable. Look at those numbers for FV participation in the NE! There are only about 5 areas in North America where a competitor can still race their FV at regional events with 15-20 competitors. MARRS is one of them .... probably the best. If you are close enough to Summit Point to make that your home track ..... then FV is the obvious choice.

I have recommended either class for people living in different areas. As I found out, putting $800 in my RV for gas to travel to Midwest FST events, more than offset the savings in operational costs.

If you're OK "lapping" by yourself, neither FST or FV is the class for you. Buy an older or oddball CSR, DSR, FC, FM, FS car.
Check out:
http://cgi.ebay.ca/SCCA-Formula-S-/2206 ... 3362b338dc

[Matt King]

Two years ago I was facing a similar choice and decided to go with FV. Given my location in CenDIv, I think either option would have worked out OK, as there is good competition in both classes around here. In my case, I decided that the option to run nationals and attend the Runoffs in my backyard outweighed the features of FST that appealed to me. (Looking back on this season, I might have done it differently if I knew how it would shake out! ) Like most people have said, you need to assess your own goals and the specific situation in your region. However, I think it's a mistake to minimize the importance of competition and participation regardless of how new you are to racing. You will appreciate all the help you can get, on and off the track.

[fvracer27]

You will only get faster by racing with faster racers. If you are lapping alone you will reach your limit and stay there. Faster racers will bring you past that limit and create a new one.

I have race many of things over my racing years. Stuff that was fast and stuff that is slow stuff that's cheap and stuff that was not so cheap. I choose FV because I knew I wanted a open wheeled car, something that was not going to break my budget and for me the most important, to be able to race with other cars. A racer is racing against other racers someone who drives a race car on track against no one is just driving fast. Then again you could always get a checkered flag for just driving around.

This was my first year as a FV driver and I have enjoyed every minute of it thanks to all the great FV drivers that I have had the privilege to race with and I know that these drivers will get me to a new limit.

As far as cost of FV vs FST I can not see a huge cost difference to run the car


Mark

[hardingfv32-1]

Remember a weekend of racing runs about $400-700 without any accident costs. You need some kind of on track competition to keep you motivated to spend that kind of money. We are talking about 75-90 min of on track activities. Even with a good mix of cars, you only get wheel to wheel racing about half the time.

Brian

[smsazzy]

be aware that no fv drivers will appreciate a fst attempting to race with them due to the fact that you'll pass them on the straight and impede them in the corners until you learn the handling,which takes years.

That's a silly point to argue for someone not to start in FST... Since if he starts in FV... he "could" impede the experienced formula vee drivers in BOTH the straights and corners... if he doesn't give up the line for faster or more experienced drivers.

It is not a silly point when he actually said "I am assuming I can find some on track competition in the FV group." I think Bob makes a fair point.

[SR Racing]

As far as cost of FV vs FST I can not see a huge cost difference to run the car
Mark

As pointed out here most of your costs in racing are those relating to get to the track, register and accomodations. So the maintenance itself is not the biggest issue. As far as the car goes though, FST is much cheaper. Tires cost the same and last 5 times as long. Brakes cost 1/2 and last 5+ times as long. Front beam 1/2 the price. All engine components are the same or cheaper. (and new, instead of used). New cylinders and piston about 2/3 the price (if 1200 are available) Engines tend to require less rebuilds due to the counterbalanced crank and better a/f mixtures from the carb causing less head carbon buildup. and I won't bother to discuss carb and manifold prices since they are relatively a single purchase item. A new FST engine is almost 1/2 the price of a National FV (with many used parts).
(and if you build/refresh your own engines you can buy your parts from a dozen or more different vendors)

You can pro-rate all the above out anyway you want, but a 6 race series in FV tires alone can cost you $1500+. In FST it is 1/3 that if not less. We have 3 FST's running and I know the costs.

[Bill_Bonow]

I think it should be pointed out that this stituation has been a ongoing problem for FV. I started in 1980 and 30 years ago we had to deal with the newly formed F440. It has only gotten worse with class mixing over time. At the ARRC, we had no less than (7) classes in our race group (FF, FFX, CF, F5, F6, FV and FST). Our FST race got screwed up by some jack ass in a late model Van Diemen FF (rocket on the straights, stone in the corners). Racing with other classes is not a good way to make friends at the track. I'm a real proponent of FST, but I agree with the others in that statement.

Another note, the folks pointing out that FST costs can not be less than FV are misinformed or just plain old don't know what they are claiming. I run an FST at the pointy end of our series races. I would equate that to running FV at a National level. I know I spend less per race (operational costs) than the typical regional FV guy.

[fvracer27]

So 799 entrants in FV spend more money than the 162 entrants in FST does that mean FST drivers have more fun racing alone?

Point is no one is going to convert the FV drivers to run FST even if it was free if there is no one to race with. I would race a lawn mower in my back yard if I had someone to race with.

I also think if FST was a national class it wouldn't take long for cost to drive up. Racers will want to go faster and will be willing to pay more within then rules for a engine builder or a chassis manufacture to find more. I'm sure when FV started 40+ years ago everyone "it's a very inexpensive race car". Fact is racing is not cheap if you want cheap stay home and nit.

In my area NE I believe FV is the "least expensive not cheap" way to go "racing" and not driving around alone to collect a flag.

If there were more FST cars in my region and I mean at least 10 I'm sure more people would consider FST, they look cool.

[fvracer27]

As pointed out here most of your costs in racing are those relating to get to the track, register and accomodations. So the maintenance itself is not the biggest issue. As far as the car goes though, FST is much cheaper. Tires cost the same and last 5 times as long. Brakes cost 1/2 and last 5+ times as long. Front beam 1/2 the price. All engine components are the same or cheaper. (and new, instead of used). New cylinders and piston about 2/3 the price (if 1200 are available) Engines tend to require less rebuilds due to the counterbalanced crank and better a/f mixtures from the carb causing less head carbon buildup. and I won't bother to discuss carb and manifold prices since they are relatively a single purchase item. A new FST engine is almost 1/2 the price of a National FV (with many used parts).
(and if you build/refresh your own engines you can buy your parts from a dozen or more different vendors)

You can pro-rate all the above out anyway you want, but a 6 race series in FV tires alone can cost you $1500+. In FST it is 1/3 that if not less. We have 3 FST's running and I know the costs.

Ok so please don't take this the wrong way again I'm new and just trying to figure things out here

So if I run my FV tires somewhere around 12 heat cycles because I'm a regional driver and I would also be only a regional driver in a FST I would get around 60 heat cycles on a set of tires?

FV brakes I put new this year and they still look brand new after a school and 6 race weekend so I would assume I can get at least 2 seasons out of them, that would make FST brake last for 10 years?

Front beam at half the price is pretty good but I hope to only have to buy one every few years because I will try not to hit anything.

How often are piston and cylinders needed if the engine is properly cared for?

And you said a FST engine cost 2/3 the cost of a national FV engine but FST only is regional class so how much does it cost to a regional FV engine?

Again I just want to know and compare apples to apples National level racing is on a different level so I don't think its fair to point out how much National racers spend compared to a regional class it's just not the same.

[RacerGeek]

I also think if FST was a national class it wouldn't take long for cost to drive up. Racers will want to go faster and will be willing to pay more within then rules for a engine builder or a chassis manufacture to find more. I'm sure when FV started 40+ years ago everyone "it's a very inexpensive race car". Fact is racing is not cheap if you want cheap stay home and nit.

I'm not sure I agree with that statement. The way that FST rules are written, with restrictions on the modifications to the intakes and carbs, the use of the restrictor plate, and the hard compound tires, there is no benefit to spending more money for engines and tires. You can never keep people from spending money if they want to, but the people that wrote the rules for FST did a very good job at limiting the penalty for not spending money so people don't have to stay home and (k)nit.

I know this is the Formula Vee board and I am not trying to start the whole FV vs FST battle again, but I find it interesting that people responding to the original poster's question that have run both in Formula Vee and Formula First say they would go with the Formula First. People that have never even seen a First say go with a Vee.

[wake74]

I appeared to have stumbled (stepped in) this boards hot button on only my second post, I'm not sure if that is a good or bad accomplishment.

For those that asked my two nearest tracks would be VIR (2.5 hours) and Summit Point (3 hours). That would put the two logical series to be either MARRS or FRCCA I think.

I would be happy to continue the discussion off-line as I have been doing with some of you, about my goals, options etc.

My apologies for dredging up an old debate, aka, beating an already dead horse.

Glenn
ps. I'll do my best to waive everyone by regardless of what car I'm in next year

[jpetillo]

Don't worry about stirring up the debate one more time. Like was suggested before, there are pretty much two camps. Just go into this decision making process assuming that neither is telling you the whole story. So, talk to as many folks as you can to learn as much as you can, and then make your own decision. Good luck. John

[SR Racing]

So if I run my FV tires somewhere around 12 heat cycles because I'm a regional driver and I would also be only a regional driver in a FST I would get around 60 heat cycles on a set of tires?

You are somewhat unusual (easy on tires). But no, I don't THINK you would get 60 cycles from a FST set. But if you are getting 12 on FV I am sure you will get up to 30+ on a set FST's

FV brakes I put new this year and they still look brand new after a school and 6 race weekend so I would assume I can get at least 2 seasons out of them, that would make FST brake last for 10 years?

You are easy on brakes too. But yes, you might very well get 10 years out of a set of pads on an FST. And they cost 1/2 as much.

Front beam at half the price is pretty good but I hope to only have to buy one every few years because I will try not to hit anything.

Good.

How often are piston and cylinders needed if the engine is properly cared for?

Hopefully not often since they are pretty much not available again, until we order another manufacturing run at 3 times the price of FST's

And you said a FST engine cost 2/3 the cost of a national FV engine but FST only is regional class so how much does it cost to a regional FV engine?

As pointed out here, there are no National or Regional FST motors. They don't have $1000 carbs or manifolds. But, I suppose you could get a Fresh regional FV motor for $3500. Close to the same price as a new FST 1600 with I-beam rods, counterbalanced crank chromoly pushrods and more.

Again I just want to know and compare apples to apples National level racing is on a different level so I don't think its fair to point out how much National racers spend compared to a regional class it's just not the same.

In FST we have a series that gets more press, more rewards and contingencies, lots of track time and top notch drivers that I would consider to be National drivers. They are competing just as hard as at any National event. If FST was made National tomorrow those same drivers woud be competing in their same cars and engines without needing to invest another dime, given our current rules package. SOme driver might invest more. and they would end up in the same pack.

We do not have to invest thousands into finding straight rims, the best junkyard heads, manifolds, carbs etc. All of the pieces are available new accoss the counter and at dozens of shops. (or if you choose from the junkyards.)

If you have an FV now and the spares you need, keep racing it. If you want to win the run-offs stay with Vee. They are fun, more inexpensive than most classes and will be around for many years.

[Bill_Bonow]

I appeared to have stumbled (stepped in) this boards hot button on only my second post, I'm not sure if that is a good or bad accomplishment........My apologies for dredging up an old debate, aka, beating an already dead horse.

Glenn,

Don't sweat it, minor stuff. FV is close to 50 years old and because parts have become more of an issue with every day that goes by, FST was born in 2002. About 8 years ago, it was WAY more of a hot button. These days it gets very few feathers ruffled, mostly by FV folks that don't know much about the class and see it as some form of a treason. There were three FST's in the Virginia area, but just like many ventures into racing, they got in for a few years and then got out.

I'd be glad to answer any questions you have off-line. Best way to contact me is at bbonow at comcast dot net

[fvracer27]

I'm not sure I agree with that statement. The way that FST rules are written, with restrictions on the modifications to the intakes and carbs, the use of the restrictor plate, and the hard compound tires, there is no benefit to spending more money for engines and tires. You can never keep people from spending money if they want to, but the people that wrote the rules for FST did a very good job at limiting the penalty for not spending money so people don't have to stay home and (k)nit.

I know this is the Formula Vee board and I am not trying to start the whole FV vs FST battle again, but I find it interesting that people responding to the original poster's question that have run both in Formula Vee and Formula First say they would go with the Formula First. People that have never even seen a First say go with a Vee.

The rules may be written that way but as a racing driver you are driven to find a edge and to win either with your driving ability or by making the car better. People will always find holes in the rules and get quicker and that knowledge will cost money wether it cost $5 or $5000 racers will pay for it if they want to win. No one just looks at rules and says "ok that's the rules that is what everyone is doing it's up to me to drive the car" now I know F1 is a lot different but every year the FIA changes the rules to limit cost and to slow the cars down, every year within 2 races they are setting records because there is a team just to find holes or grey area in the rules to get a edge. I'm also pretty sure the FIA has a much larger and more experience rule making committee than SCCA to keep the holes in the rules to minimum.

I would love to have a bunch of FSTs here where I could see them run and see the real word for self. That would make the choice a hole lot easier as I'm sure everyone would love to save money racing.

I'm sure I missed the FV vs FST battle in the past so I'm sorry if I'm adding the fuel