Startting from Scratch - FV or FST?

SR Racing
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Re: Startting from Scratch - FV or FST?

Post by SR Racing »

fvracer27 wrote:The rules may be written that way but as a racing driver you are driven to find a edge and to win either with your driving ability or by making the car better. People will always find holes in the rules and get quicker and that knowledge will cost money wether it cost $5 or $5000 racers will pay for it if they want to win.
Mark, This statement is absolutely correct. The point that you might be overlooking is parts availabilty. Every part on an FST is available from dozens of vendors. There are no junkyard bidding wars. Buy some backing plates, cylinders, manifolds, carbs, wheels, drums, many other internal engine parts, and see what I am talking about. Certainly people will continue to invest time into trying to figure out what makes the car faster, we are doing that now. But due to parts availability it will not escallate like FV. (at least not for many years)
SR Racing
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Re: Startting from Scratch - FV or FST?

Post by SR Racing »

fvracer27 wrote: I'm sure I missed the FV vs FST battle in the past so I'm sorry if I'm adding the fuel
Don't worry about it. This IS the place to debate these issues. If someone doesn't like the discussion they can simply ignore the thread.

I consider FST to be the most likely continuation of the most inexpensive open wheel racing for many years. It keeps the FV from being a garage queen. Most all can be converted to FST. This discussion is no different than all the other discussions here on suspensions, manifolds, etc.
fvracer27
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Re: Startting from Scratch - FV or FST?

Post by fvracer27 »

SR Racing wrote:
Mark, This statement is absolutely correct. The point that you might be overlooking is parts availabilty. Every part on an FST is available from dozens of vendors. There are no junkyard bidding wars. Buy some backing plates, cylinders, manifolds, carbs, wheels, drums, many other internal engine parts, and see what I am talking about. Certainly people will continue to invest time into trying to figure out what makes the car faster, we are doing that now. But due to parts availability it will not escallate like FV. (at least not for many years)
I agree, I do know some parts are not easy to come by but this is the class that has the numbers in most areas in hense making people like me that want to race with 10+ cars stay with FV. I wish there were more FST cars around NE it may change some folks oppion on them being the "new FV"

Can someone tell me why FST is only regional class?
Mark Filip
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Re: Startting from Scratch - FV or FST?

Post by FVartist »

Mark,

That is a loaded question. Basically the interest seems to vary by region. I can only speak for us out here on the West Coast. There is no interest, hence there is no competition. They can not qualify at this time to be recognized for National status. I keep hearing those that are in charge and developed the class want to stay Regional.

Bruce
Left Coast Formula Car Board
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RacerGeek
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Re: Startting from Scratch - FV or FST?

Post by RacerGeek »

fvracer27 wrote:The rules may be written that way but as a racing driver you are driven to find a edge and to win either with your driving ability or by making the car better. People will always find holes in the rules and get quicker and that knowledge will cost money wether it cost $5 or $5000 racers will pay for it if they want to win. No one just looks at rules and says "ok that's the rules that is what everyone is doing it's up to me to drive the car" now I know F1 is a lot different but every year the FIA changes the rules to limit cost and to slow the cars down, every year within 2 races they are setting records because there is a team just to find holes or grey area in the rules to get a edge. I'm also pretty sure the FIA has a much larger and more experience rule making committee than SCCA to keep the holes in the rules to minimum.
Mark,

That's a pretty romantic image of every SCCA driver sifting through the GCR for a gray area and then working diligently in his garage to find the next "unfair advantage", but that is hardly the reality. (Quite frankly, from the number of questions people ask here that are easily answered by the GCR, I wonder how many people even have one.) I think it's fair to say you can count on both hands the number of people in Formula Vee that actually build their own chassis or develop their own engine. The reality is most racers don't have the time or the expertise to do that. So they buy a car, buy an engine, buy the best intake manifold they can afford, buy the best exhaust system they can afford, the best shocks they can afford, and buy new tires when they can afford them. And I would say the disparity between parts on the car that won the Runoffs and the car of a guy that only runs three times a year at his home track is pretty significant. It's a personal decision as to how much is enough money to spend to win a $5 trophy.

As I said before, the best thing about the Formula First rules is that they have minimized the penalty for not spending money. The hard tires may be worth .2-.3 seconds for the first few heat cycles, but then they are consistant until they are run down to the cords. Will you be faster on new tires? Of course. But does the penalty for not having them justify the cost of a new set of tires - the guys racing FST don't think so. Same with the engine. The restrictor plate limits the gains from developing heads and intakes. You can never write rules that keep people from spending money looking for an advantage, but you can write rules that limit the penalty incurred by not spending money.
Bob VanDyke
SR Racing
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Re: Startting from Scratch - FV or FST?

Post by SR Racing »

fvracer27 wrote: I agree, I do know some parts are not easy to come by but this is the class that has the numbers in most areas in hense making people like me that want to race with 10+ cars stay with FV. I wish there were more FST cars around NE it may change some folks oppion on them being the "new FV"
Yep. Exactly why we suggest that if you want the bigger field for competition, FV is where you should stay in those parts of the country.
Also exactly why we set up a series at races closet to the bulk of us. We have 10 to 15+ car fields and it will be more next year.
Can someone tell me why FST is only regional class?
As pointed out here, that is what we wanted. However, it is somewhat now out of our hands. If the entries increase across the US and someone partitions the SCCA to make it a National class it may happen. Personally, I think in a couple years it is a moot point. There will be no Regionals/ Nationals, just Club Races.
remmers
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Re: Startting from Scratch - FV or FST?

Post by remmers »

Mark,

That's a pretty romantic image of every SCCA driver sifting through the GCR for a gray area and then working diligently in his garage to find the next "unfair advantage", but that is hardly the reality. (Quite frankly, from the number of questions people ask here that are easily answered by the GCR, I wonder how many people even have one.) I think it's fair to say you can count on both hands the number of people in Formula Vee that actually build their own chassis or develop their own engine. The reality is most racers don't have the time or the expertise to do that. So they buy a car, buy an engine, buy the best intake manifold they can afford, buy the best exhaust system they can afford, the best shocks they can afford, and buy new tires when they can afford them. And I would say the disparity between parts on the car that won the Runoffs and the car of a guy that only runs three times a year at his home track is pretty significant. It's a personal decision as to how much is enough money to spend to win a $5 trophy.

As I said before, the best thing about the Formula First rules is that they have minimized the penalty for not spending money. The hard tires may be worth .2-.3 seconds for the first few heat cycles, but then they are consistant until they are run down to the cords. Will you be faster on new tires? Of course. But does the penalty for not having them justify the cost of a new set of tires - the guys racing FST don't think so. Same with the engine. The restrictor plate limits the gains from developing heads and intakes. You can never write rules that keep people from spending money looking for an advantage, but you can write rules that limit the penalty incurred by not spending money.
i'll be honest, i'm guilty of being one of those romantics who has gone over the GCR with a fine-tooth comb for that unfair advantage. there is an old adage that if you aren't going forwards, you're going backwards, and it's completely true. if you are truly in it to win, then you'll find any way to give yourself an advantage over everyone else. otherwise, we'd all be driving an autodynamics...

there is a good reason why, if it is in fact the case, the powers that be for FST don't want it to become a national class. if it gets it's own national championship, then you will wind up with people nickel and dime-ing themselves for that extra .001 second off their lap times. whether it be only running their tires to 12 heat cycles, or $1000 engine goodies, just as FV has done. However, if you don't care if you're an also-ran for a few years, you can run a vee tire do umpteen heat cycles, or only spend a couple grand every two years on engine rebuilds and still have fun. regardless of which class you choose.

my personal suggestion is to go with FV, since you said there are no FST drivers in your area. having more experienced drivers you can pick the brains of is invaluable regardless of what you drive. if, when you've improved to the point where you're comfortable in the car and perhaps even plateauing with your lap times, then i'd consider FST as an option over putting more money into making your FV more competitive if the choice feels right.
jpetillo
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Re: Startting from Scratch - FV or FST?

Post by jpetillo »

SR Racing wrote:
fvracer27 wrote: So if I run my FV tires somewhere around 12 heat cycles because I'm a regional driver and I would also be only a regional driver in a FST I would get around 60 heat cycles on a set of tires?
You are somewhat unusual (easy on tires). But no, I don't THINK you would get 60 cycles from a FST set. But if you are getting 12 on FV I am sure you will get up to 30+ on a set FST's
I beg to differ. What Mark is saying is pretty usual from what I've seen in the past four years. Actually, many guys do many more cycles and are quite competitive. We are comparing regional classes, right?
SR Racing wrote:
fvracer27 wrote: FV brakes I put new this year and they still look brand new after a school and 6 race weekend so I would assume I can get at least 2 seasons out of them, that would make FST brake last for 10 years?
You are easy on brakes too. But yes, you might very well get 10 years out of a set of pads on an FST. And they cost 1/2 as much.
Again, what Mark is saying is pretty typical from my limited experience. I was looking at mine this past weekend and had the same thoughts.

That an FST can be cheaper, there is no argument. That it is a lot cheaper for a regional guy just having fun, is not clear. You would be surprised how frugal some of the regional FV guys are that are running up front - it's embarrassing, really. Not everyone is frugal by any means, though! It would be a myth in our region that you have to have the latest and greatest and newest to do well.

As almost everyone agrees with, it's a waste to spend all the money if you don't have a lot of competition. The competition is what makes it all worthwhile - Andy was right on the money on that point. You do want to race against more than a few folks if you can - and the more the merrier. There is a better chance that you will have someone to have fun with. Ask the Spec Miata guys what they like, and it's perhaps not the Miatas themselves but large fields.

John
Last edited by jpetillo on November 29th, 2010, 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SR Racing
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Re: Startting from Scratch - FV or FST?

Post by SR Racing »

John, In our series we have anywhere from 10 to 15 cars at an event. That IS a BIG field in FV. Yes, as we have all said here, if you can't wait for the fields to grow in your area or don't attend the FST series and want that competition now, then stay in FV. It's simple.

We really don't need to discuss the maintenance costs anymore. This is the most obvious of all FST advantages. One set of tires per season, one set of brakes with no adjusting with a 10 minute change when needed with a FIRM predictable pedal. EVERY part is the same or less $ and new from dozens of vendors and a rebuild is slightly less (parts costs). At best a regional very low cost FV could run maintenance for close to the same $ as a top FST. (Assuming he didn''t have any mishaps.)
jpetillo
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Re: Startting from Scratch - FV or FST?

Post by jpetillo »

Jim, I already agreed with what you said about competitive fields and lower FST costs. I'm not arguing. I was just adding that what Mark suggested is petty typical and not an anomaly. Most of us run a full year on one set of tires and a full year on one set of brake shoes in FV. Many do more than one year and some more than two - against what the pundits suggest. About the brake adjusting, you're absolutely right about that, too.
tiagosantos
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Re: Startting from Scratch - FV or FST?

Post by tiagosantos »

I really wouldn't mind if FST picked up pace locally, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. But boy do I wish I could run something other than drum brakes! :lol:
fvracer27
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Re: Startting from Scratch - FV or FST?

Post by fvracer27 »

tiagosantos wrote:I really wouldn't mind if FST picked up pace locally, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. But boy do I wish I could run something other than drum brakes! :lol:
I also am a fan of disc brakes :mrgreen:
Mark Filip
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Re: Startting from Scratch - FV or FST?

Post by FVartist »

Personally I find drums have an advantage, Less drag. It helps to properly set your set your brakes, advantage those with experience and knowledge.

Bruce
Left Coast Formula Car Board
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SR Racing
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Re: Startting from Scratch - FV or FST?

Post by SR Racing »

FVartist wrote:Personally I find drums have an advantage, Less drag.
Bruce, I don't think you would be able to measure it. We are not running residual pressure valves, so after you touch the brakes, any slight movement in the rotor recesses the pads more than enough to eliminate drag. I have never felt any drag on the rotors. And they remain consistant through the life of the pad.
It helps to properly set your set your brakes,
Yes after every session. :lol:
hardingfv32-1
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Re: Startting from Scratch - FV or FST?

Post by hardingfv32-1 »

Is the disc brake pad retraction effect called "knock back"?

Brian
tiagosantos
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Re: Startting from Scratch - FV or FST?

Post by tiagosantos »

FVartist wrote:It helps to properly set your set your brakes, advantage those with experience and knowledge.
Completely agree, you are totally right.. It's just that 26 year old me (and most other 20 somethings I know..) have never had to deal with drum brakes and find it a chore rather than a skill. Of course I won't stop racing a Vee because of drum brakes, but if there was an hypothetical class that cost the same, was as much fun as driving a vee and had similar fields, with the only difference being I wouldn't have to adjust my brakes every 5 laps, I'd be gone in a second! :lol: :mrgreen:
remmers
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Re: Startting from Scratch - FV or FST?

Post by remmers »

cost me a decent starting spot at my last race at NHMS because i forgot to adjust my front brakes... backed them all the way off to get the drums off and on to check everything up front... imagine my surprise coming into turn 3 and having no brakes! :shock:
Matt King
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Re: Startting from Scratch - FV or FST?

Post by Matt King »

hardingfv32-1 wrote:Is the disc brake pad retraction effect called "knock back"?

Brian
No. Pad knockback is a different phenomenon that is usually created by the movement or flexing of parts like a spindle, axleshaft, or caliper mount that causes the piston to retract enough that there is significant pedal movement when the brakes are reapplied. The retraction that Jim is talking about is created by the design of the piston seal.
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